Iron Man 3 The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it?

[Mrs. Sawyer]

Regardless of ones feelings toward whether they felt misled or not, I'm still struggling to see what the twist does that actually makes the film better from a story perspective. It's one thing to have a message in a film, but that message should really have some meaning to it other wise you're virtually doing a twist for the sake of shock value. Killian's end goals are a little vague to say the least, so what does him being the mastermind mean to Stark? Not a hell of a lot, when it's revealed Killian is the brains of the operation are the stakes suddenly any higher? Not really. Does it suddenly become personal for Tony? Nope. Is there a bigger emotional payoff? Hardly. So that leaves us in the odd predicament of having a really good twist that doesn't really follow through with anything. It tells us a message essentially that 'the bad guy isn't always who you think it is' but it's kind of a hollow statement if the mastermind isn't someone who's close to the hero, it's more a case of 'No **** Sherlock'. The twist is a good idea in context, but it's execution is a bit all over the place, lets face it we know within the first 5 mins he's going to be a bad guy. There's no doubt in my mind that had Killian had a stronger relationship with Stark the twist wouldn't have been such an issue because it suddenly puts Stark in a position of having to take on someone close to him, without that he's just a mad scientist gone crazy.

And I think that's what I think holds the movie back. Killian's motivations himself are vague at best, and so is his plans, along with extremis itself. The did a great job at digging to the core of the characters personality wise and also they did a good job developing Killian. But questions do need to be answered: Why does he develop the Mandarin? Why did he go through all of this? What was his plan specifically? Is this all because it came from Stark ditiching him? If so, I still feel as though that's a weak motivation despite how great Killian's speech to Stark was.

With that said, I do think there is a message to it. Those leaders in the shadows are merely figureheads and the real villains in shadows are right in front of our faces. It hints that the ones who own the media can be the real villains.

 

[nogap87]

Regardless of ones feelings toward whether the felt misled or not, I'm still struggling to see what the twist does that actually makes the film better from a story perspective. It's one thing to have a message in a film, but that message should really have some meaning to it other wise you're virtually doing a twist for the sake of shock value. Killian's end goals are a little vague to say the least, so what does him being the mastermind mean to Stark? Not a hell of a lot, when it's reveal Killian is the brains of the operation are the stakes suddenly any higher? Not really. Does it suddenly become personal for Tony? Nope. Is there a bigger emotional payoff? Hardly. So that leaves us in the odd predicament of having a really good twist that doesn't really follow through with anything. It tells us a message essentially that 'the bad guy isn't always who you think it is' but it's kind of a hollow statement if the mastermind isn't someone who's close to the hero, it's more a case of 'No **** Sherlock'. The twist is a good idea in context, but it's execution is a bit all over the place, lets face it we know within the first 5 mins he's going to be a bad guy. There's no doubt in my mind that had Killian had a stronger relationship with Stark the twist wouldn't have been such an issue because it suddenly puts Stark in a position of having to take on someone close to him, without that he's just a mad scientist gone crazy.

You've nailed it.

It's not about the lack of alien rings or change in ethnicity (even though I have a problem with both). More than anything else, the problem with the twist was it didn't really add anything to the plot other than cheap laughs. It's not like dealing with Trevor kept Stark busy long enough for Killian to kill Pepper or kill the President or, hell, escape so he can menace the MCU another day. Much like the the ending of IM2, everything was wrapped up quite nicely with no hint that the actions of Tony or the villain may come back to haunt him. False Mandarin was a time waster.

 

[samsnee]

His plans werent vague. He clearly says he wants to control the supply and demand on the war on terror.

 

[ElMariachi]

It's even less likely that a stage actor would go unnoticed. While I understand that he fell off the radar and was homeless etc...the guy had previously been a working actor and no one was able to identify him?

Joker wore a mask and associated with other criminals. The Mandarin got on stage in front of people and acted.

But he also received plastic surgery and was always in some costume.

 

[nogap87]

It's even less likely that a stage actor would go unnoticed. While I understand that he fell off the radar and was homeless etc...the guy had previously been a working actor and no one was able to identify him?

Joker wore a mask and associated with other criminals. The Mandarin got on stage in front of people and acted.

Edit: ElMariachi beat me to it.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

That was an excellent interview and an intriguing article.

Let me say something that I hope people don't take the wrong way, and I don't want to bring up TDK to start a fan war but I've said this before.

Don't get me wrong, I love Heath's Joker, it's iconic and he'll be forever remembered for that role. However one problem I have with both TDK and TDKR is that if those kinds of people actually existed, they would have the full force of the U.S. military on their butts. Look at what happened in real life in Boston. No one knew those kids, they were identified from street photos, and I'm supposed to believe that a guy can go around and have no identifiable finger prints, who is totally off the charts in this 24/7 interconnected media world we live in, post 9/11?

I like TDK, but that's a major point where I lose believability in that film.

Creating a persona that doesn't exist to keep the eye off the real target. I think it was a brilliant decision.

Now I don't want to make any more comparisons than that, because, no Pearce's performance while great is no Heath Ledger's Joker, and that's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying from a story perspective it was unique and pretty ballsy.

I don't mean to start a fan war... because I agree in the case of Bane. But The Joker worked way too quickly and quietly to be considered a national threat. By the time he launched his only massive scale attack that threatened the lives of more than a single individual, Batman had caught him.

Prior to that, Joker was a bank robber, murderer, kidnapper, arsonist/vandal, and a catalyst for Harvey Dent's fall from grace. He wasn't a terrorist and didnt commit treason or anything. Not on the level Bane did. The police and possibly SWAT should have been more than enough to stop The Joker, what made him so great was that they weren't enough. t:

 

[jmc]

And I think that's what I think holds the movie back. Killian's motivations himself are vague at best, and so is his plans, along with extremis itself. The did a great job at digging to the core of the characters personality wise and also they did a good job developing Killian. But questions do need to be answered: Why does he develop the Mandarin? Why did he go through all of this? What was his plan specifically? Is this all because it came from Stark ditiching him? If so, I still feel as though that's a weak motivation despite how great Killian's speech to Stark was.

With that said, I do think there is a message to it. Those leaders in the shadows are merely figureheads and the real villains in shadows are right in front of our faces. It hints that the ones who own the media can be the real villains.

I won't disagree with that, that said, the 'revealing the wizard' type of story tends to work best either when the real mastermind is close to the protagonist or is executed in such a way that makes the film a completely different experience watching it a second time, The Usual Suspects is an obvious example or ironically enough Memento. IM3 doesn't really fall into either category because the shock isn't that Killian is the villain, it's that Kingsley's Mandarin isn't the villain, it's almost an inverted reveal.

 

[WarrenPeace2012]

I hadn't seen that. And it's unfortunate. I can understand having a different view of the film, but no one is wrong for not liking it. My guess is that maybe some folks feel threatened that if Disney/Marvel sees dissatisfaction with the film, they'll push the franchise another way...But trying to silence negative reviews only serves to antagonize people.

We should all be able to enjoy the fact that we've got these characters on the big screen, and accept that we may not all enjoy how they're handled.

QFT. Couldn't have said it better myself friend

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

That was an excellent interview and an intriguing article.

Let me say something that I hope people don't take the wrong way, and I don't want to bring up TDK to start a fan war but I've said this before.

Don't get me wrong, I love Heath's Joker, it's iconic and he'll be forever remembered for that role. However one problem I have with both TDK and TDKR is that if those kinds of people actually existed, they would have the full force of the U.S. military on their butts. Look at what happened in real life in Boston. No one knew those kids, they were identified from street photos, and I'm supposed to believe that a guy can go around and have no identifiable finger prints, who is totally off the charts in this 24/7 interconnected media world we live in, post 9/11?

I like TDK, but that's a major point where I lose believability in that film.

Creating a persona that doesn't exist to keep the eye off the real target. I think it was a brilliant decision.

Now I don't want to make any more comparisons than that, because, no Pearce's performance while great is no Heath Ledger's Joker, and that's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying from a story perspective it was unique and pretty ballsy.

These are also movies in which men like Stark are allowed to fly around in metal killing machines, and even when drunk like in IM2. So I think those "if this really were to occur..." arguments are silly to begin with. Sacrificing coolness and entertainment for the sake of a little more realism in an escapist comic-book movie kinda defeats the purpose. I don't go there to think too hard about why Homeland Security or SWAT don't intervene in a timely manner like they would in real life. I go there to be entertained and my entertainment level nosedived after the ridiculous Mandarin twist.

 

[herolee10]

At this stage, I'm wondering if we should have a poll later on; getting everyone's opinion on which villain they thought Marvel had messed up portraying on the big screen the most:

1. The Mandarin
2. Galactus
3. Venom
4. Deadpool
5. Dark Phoenix, Etc...

 

[Norek]

That was an excellent interview and an intriguing article.

Let me say something that I hope people don't take the wrong way, and I don't want to bring up TDK to start a fan war but I've said this before.

Don't get me wrong, I love Heath's Joker, it's iconic and he'll be forever remembered for that role. However one problem I have with both TDK and TDKR is that if those kinds of people actually existed, they would have the full force of the U.S. military on their butts. Look at what happened in real life in Boston. No one knew those kids, they were identified from street photos, and I'm supposed to believe that a guy can go around and have no identifiable finger prints, who is totally off the charts in this 24/7 interconnected media world we live in, post 9/11?

I like TDK, but that's a major point where I lose believability in that film.

Creating a persona that doesn't exist to keep the eye off the real target. I think it was a brilliant decision.

Now I don't want to make any more comparisons than that, because, no Pearce's performance while great is no Heath Ledger's Joker, and that's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying from a story perspective it was unique and pretty ballsy.

Dude, you're really pushing this too far... It's a comic book movie. There was an article I read not a while ago, it was something like "Every desicion Tony Stark makes is wrong and illegal" that was going deep into analyzing everything that's happening during Iron Man 1 and 2 and that Tony Stark should be put in jail at any given moment in these movies and there's absolutely no way that anything he does since the very beginning could possibly happen in real life. Not only he's violating dozens of federal laws, but he could hardly survive the events of his escape in the first movie, let alone fly in the suit and crash-land like he does, or any other thing he does while being Iron Man for that matter... If these kinds of people actually existed, there is no way they would let anyone fly around in a suit like that and do the stuff he does in these movies.

You can literally tear these movies apart until there's absolutely nothing logical left there to grasp to, and they look like pathetic excuse for a movie. That's not the point. "If these things were real" is possibly the worst argument you can use about pretty much anything in a superhero film, judging their plausibility by comparing them to real-life events and stuff like that is silly and pointless.

 

[ElMariachi]

And I think that's what I think holds the movie back. Killian's motivations himself are vague at best, and so is his plans, along with extremis itself. The did a great job at digging to the core of the characters personality wise and also they did a good job developing Killian. But questions do need to be answered: Why does he develop the Mandarin? Why did he go through all of this? What was his plan specifically? Is this all because it came from Stark ditiching him? If so, I still feel as though that's a weak motivation despite how great Killian's speech to Stark was.

With that said, I do think there is a message to it. Those leaders in the shadows are merely figureheads and the real villains in shadows are right in front of our faces. It hints that the ones who own the media can be the real villains.

The Mandarin is developed to draw all attention to a selected target while Killian's plot goes unnoticed. Specifically towards the Middle East/Asia. A target that nobody questions, well, because it makes sense. Even Tony was shocked about the location and thought JARVIS was still on the fritz. Nobody would have ever expected to look for this threat in the warm Florida sun, lounging about in a mansion. Sound like any terrorist masterminds that we know?

You got to look at this movie as almost a satire of the War on Terror. The whole thing with 'Trevor' was straight up bin Laden. While we are going around the world kicking doors down and trying to find this one guy, the more threatening bad guys might be among us. And when we finally do find these guys, they seldom live up to their reputation. This is why the movie and advertising was brilliant. They got you all hyped up and invested in this bad guy. This colorful, scary terrorist mastermind. Instead, what we found was a scared old man taking a crap. Surrounded by women, a t.v., and beer. Not very exciting stuff was it? The epic assault on the compound was more exciting than the inhabitant.

Regardless of what you think of the twist or how it played into the movie, it can't be denied that it's really clever writing. And bold too. Killian came across as a Bond villain, sure, but what's the problem with that anyways? I would rather see a Bond villain with some elaborate ruse for world domination than another robotic suit, a speech giving terrorist, a father figure, or something along those lines. Killian was a mixture of Blofeld and the T-1000 Terminator. That's cool with me so long as the hero is even more exciting and watchable! And it's not like Killian sucked either. He was charming, likeable to an extent, well acted, a physical threat, and menacing. He just didn't have the stupid rings and robe.

It's really difficult to create villain motivations that are completely orginal and fresh. There was nothing remarkable about Bane in TDKR, was there? Just another well spoken terrorist blowing stuff up. I've seen this pretty much in every Die Hard movie. Give the guy a mask and a silly accent---then poof, all of sudden he is a great villain? If people are going to hold Killian's feet to the fire (no pun intended), than they better do the same for about 99% of all movie villains. I didn't see alot of criticism of Loki, despite his 'bland' plans for world domination. Nor did I for Silva in Skyfall, despite being a cliche spy/action villain. They give him stupid hair and make him sexually touch Bond. Like Bane--poof--all of a sudden one of the greatest villains? I'm not buying it.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

I wouldn't take too much away from Silva. Basically, his crime is being a Bond villain in a Bond movie.

And I agree about everything else. I've been telling people Iron Man 3 storywise is one of the most creative superhero movies made. I do like the character and I hope he returns.

 

[ElMariachi]

The only problem with the Joker for me was that he was omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Heath Ledger probably could have stuffed a bomb up Gordon's butt if he really wanted to. A great character but he has to be the most overpowered character in the history of comicbook movies. If they ever make a JL movie, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Joker pull out Kryptonite baseball bat out and hit Supes in the face with it. This is why I always laugh at 'Nolan realism'. It's barely more realistic than Iron Man.

 

[AW1]

I don't read comics and thought the twist was poor. Kingsley's 'Mandarin' was built up really well and the terrorist angle IMO was cool because it was playing on what people are scared of in real life (terrorism etc) Kingsley's character was done so well that when the twist came it felt like more of a let down/easy way out for the film. For me I would've liked to have seen more of the build up of the psychological threat from Kingsley's 'Mandarin'

I understand what they were trying to go about and it was a pretty clever idea but it seemed to not come off well as they wanted, IMO. For me the fact they didn't have any idea where (what we thought was) The Mandarin was or that he could strike at any time seemed interesting, then it unraveled when he was just an actor/hired gun.

 

[Doc Samson]

You've nailed it.

It's not about the lack of alien rings or change in ethnicity (even though I have a problem with both). More than anything else, the problem with the twist was it didn't really add anything to the plot other than cheap laughs.

Exactly, it was done, seemingly, for the comedy of it and nothing else. But I will say that, at least to me, it does go a bit deeper than that. Because Marvel has carved out the possibility of magic and Thunder gods and aliens from different dimensions arriving through portals in this Cinematic Universe.

So...what the hell would be so tough about The Mandarin just being The Mandarin that we all know and expect? I feel like this "twist" is something you do to a lesser villain in a character's rogues gallery. You don't do it to the main arch enemy, you just don't. And it feels even worse because Marvel themselves oversaw this and let it happen.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

I think when people say the twist was brilliant or that Killian was really a better villain than Kingsley's Mandarin had the potential to be, they're trying too hard to defend what was a fatal flaw in the movie. Not only was it a twist that falls apart upon further inspection (so who was that Roxxon hostage he shot?), but Trevor's "comedy" completely destroys the pacing. It wouldn't have even been that bad if Mandarin was a patsy of Killian's like Bane was of Talia al-Ghul's, but to make him basically Russell Brand's Arthur. C'mon..... it was awful. And the movie never recovered after that momentum killing moment.

 

[ElMariachi]

I wouldn't take too much away from Silva. Basically, his crime is being a Bond villain in a Bond movie.

And I agree about everything else. I've been telling people Iron Man 3 storywise is one of the most creative superhero movies made. I do like the character and I hope he returns.

Yeah, I really had no problem with him at all. He was pretty much Alec Trevelyan and the Joker rolled into one blonde haired, jawless body. But like you said, he is a Bond villain. Bond villains almost always do the same things. Try to take over the world/screw over the West, get money, or get revenge. t:

Not to turn this into a Bond discussion but I really miss my Bond bad guys having these grand plans for nuking countries. All the want to do now is make money on resources, get revenge, and make money in the stock market. When will somebody build a space station and try to kill us all?

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

Baby steps.

It was those grand misfires schemes that nearly ruined the series.

 

[ElMariachi]

Baby steps.

It was those grand misfires schemes that nearly ruined the series.

True but I think we are heading too far into the other direction of seriousness. I'd like to see a modern take on something like You Only Live Twice, OHMSS, Moonraker, and TSWLM. I've had enough of guys trying to make money or get revenge. I want Bond to go up against some true maniacs.

 

[DarthDorranceBane]

Dude, you're really pushing this too far... It's a comic book movie. There was an article I read not a while ago, it was something like "Every desicion Tony Stark makes is wrong and illegal" that was going deep into analyzing everything that's happening during Iron Man 1 and 2 and that Tony Stark should be put in jail at any given moment in these movies and there's absolutely no way that anything he does since the very beginning could possibly happen in real life. Not only he's violating dozens of federal laws, but he could hardly survive the events of his escape in the first movie, let alone fly in the suit and crash-land like he does, or any other thing he does while being Iron Man for that matter... If these kinds of people actually existed, there is no way they would let anyone fly around in a suit like that and do the stuff he does in these movies.

You can literally tear these movies apart until there's absolutely nothing logical left there to grasp to, and they look like pathetic excuse for a movie. That's not the point. "If these things were real" is possibly the worst argument you can use about pretty much anything in a superhero film, judging their plausibility by comparing them to real-life events and stuff like that is silly and pointless.

http://www.cracked.com/article_20457_5-marvel-characters-who-totally-dropped-ball.html

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

True but I think we are heading too far into the other direction of seriousness. I'd like to see a modern take on something like You Only Live Twice, OHMSS, Moonraker, and TSWLM. I've had enough of guys trying to make money or get revenge. I want Bond to go up against some true maniacs.

I think we'll probably get more of a Thunderball type movie next. I think the scope of the next Bond movie is going to be huge. I just want the whole "Bond pulling off one last major assault with the military/or other allies against the villain" to come back.

http://www.cracked.com/article_20457_5-marvel-characters-who-totally-dropped-ball.html

It would be Cracked.

Entertaining article though.

 

[nogap87]

Exactly, it was done, seemingly, for the comedy of it and nothing else. But I will say that, at least to me, it does go a bit deeper than that. Because Marvel has carved out the possibility of magic and Thunder gods and aliens from different dimensions arriving through portals in this Cinematic Universe.

So...what the hell would be so tough about The Mandarin just being The Mandarin that we all know and expect? I feel like this "twist" is something you do to a lesser villain in a character's rogues gallery. You don't do it to the main arch enemy, you just don't. And it feels even worse because Marvel themselves oversaw this and let it happen.

Let us not forget that Marvel is going to spend a crap load of money to get Joe Sixpack to care about seeing a space raccoon and a talking tree on the big screen. I actually found Killian's and Tony's holograms more ridiculous than the prospect of magic alien rings.

 

[ElMariachi]

Exactly, it was done, seemingly, for the comedy of it and nothing else. But I will say that, at least to me, it does go a bit deeper than that. Because Marvel has carved out the possibility of magic and Thunder gods and aliens from different dimensions arriving through portals in this Cinematic Universe.

So...what the hell would be so tough about The Mandarin just being The Mandarin that we all know and expect? I feel like this "twist" is something you do to a lesser villain in a character's rogues gallery. You don't do it to the main arch enemy, you just don't. And it feels even worse because Marvel themselves oversaw this and let it happen.

It is tough because this isn't an Avenger film. 'Magical' rings with near unlimited powers don't belong in an Iron Man movie. Especially when an actual iconic villain will be using a similar power in Avengers 2 or 3. Far too much build up would be needed to explain Makulan rings and spaceships. It was never a good idea. The IM3 Mandarin was more creative and true to character. The 'Mandarin' was two people. A flamboyant, colorful facade representing what the Mandarin always was--a greedy, business-minded, brilliant foil to Tony Stark. That's why the changes were good.

 

[ElMariachi]

I think we'll probably get more of a Thunderball type movie next. I think the scope of the next Bond movie is going to be huge. I just want the whole "Bond pulling off one last major assault with the military/or other allies against the villain" to come back.

Thunderball would be a great style for the next Craig movie. There is just something about Bond in the Caribbean. Maybe that's one of the reasons why I love the Iron Man franchise. The vibrant Southern California, Monte Carlo, and Florida locations remind me of the Connery Bond films.