Game of Thrones General (Non-Book Related) Discussion Thread - Part 1

[Dr.]

Still winning awards...

AFI Awards TV: ‘Chernobyl’, ‘Game Of Thrones’ Make The Top 10 – Deadline

Chernobyl (HBO)
The Crown (Netflix)
Fosse/Verdon (FX)
Game of Thrones (HBO)
Pose (FX)
Succession (HBO)
Unbelievable (Netflix)
Veep (HBO)
Watchmen (HBO)
When They See Us (Netflix)

 

[jolldan]

 

[Marvolo]

 

[Dr.]

I didn’t quite follow this guy’s argument. At first he faults D&D for not fully embracing the fantasy elements of the books. But later, he kvetches that “the show took a giant leap into fantasy land out of nowhere…” Now, those - separately - are arguably legitimate criticisms. But at first blush, they would seem to be incompatible. The problem is either one or the other. It can’t be both. Yes?

Admittedly, I’m at a disadvantage - not having read the books. But my impression of a single viewing of the series is that the earlier seasons (the ones everyone liked ) were more grounded and “realistic.” But as time went on, it leaned more and more into fantasy. IOW, whatever GoT’s failings might be, a lack of magic, witches, shape-shifters, ice zombies and dragons wasn’t among them.

 

[Marvolo]

He's saying they didnt properly establish and use the fantasy and esoteric elements throughout the entire series. A lot of fantastical and magical elements were cut. Even the White Walkers were reduced compared to the book version of the Others. So when the show got to season 8 the magic was vague, poorly established, and handled terribly.

 

[8ulk87]

I was one of those people who didnt really criticized the sloppy ending of GOT but i have to admit this man is right.

 

[Drizzle]

I was one of those people who didnt really criticized the sloppy ending of GOT but i have to admit this man is right.

I take umbrage with a point he brought up:

"The fact that Cleganebowl actually happened is hilarious. It was a joke. We were joking."

Uh, what? Everyone wanted to see that. It also turned out to be one of the few really great moments of the final season.

 

[Roose Bolton]

It wasn’t a memetic shirtposting thing ever. I mean, yeah people got into making memes about it, but it was always a long held theory since A Feast For Crows came out and revealed that both brothers were still “alive” and there was a chance for conclusion for both characters.

 

[CaptainWagner]

I take umbrage with a point he brought up:

"The fact that Cleganebowl actually happened is hilarious. It was a joke. We were joking."

Uh, what? Everyone wanted to see that. It also turned out to be one of the few really great moments of the final season.

The issue isn't that it happened, that was clearly set up and a logically expected event from the minute it's confirmed they're both still "alive". Problem is that the way they had it happen threw all of Sandor's development out the window. He literally throws his life away to have revenge.

 

[THORin]

The issue isn't that it happened, that was clearly set up and a logically expected event from the minute it's confirmed they're both still "alive". Problem is that the way they had it happen threw all of Sandor's development out the window. He literally throws his life away to have revenge.

I get that. Personally I love the suggestion I’ve seen from a lot of theorists/YouTubers, etc, that after the Hound fell from the tower he should have survived just barely, and Arya would have killed him as an act of mercy, paralleling how she refused to do so earlier in the show. Maybe a bit fan-servicey, but I’d have liked it - it feels like it would have been more resonant than their last interaction being the Hound basically just telling her not to live a live of vengeance anymore, and her being like “ok, bye”. That scene seemed so forced just to get Arya out of the Keep.

 

[CaptainWagner]

I get that. Personally I love the suggestion I’ve seen from a lot of theorists/YouTubers, etc, that after the Hound fell from the tower he should have survived just barely, and Arya would have killed him as an act of mercy, paralleling how she refused to do so earlier in the show. Maybe a bit fan-servicey, but I’d have liked it - it feels like it would have been more resonant than their last interaction being the Hound basically just telling her not to live a live of vengeance anymore, and her being like “ok, bye”. That scene seemed so forced just to get Arya out of the Keep.

And any touching quality their final moment could have had gets ruined when you realize that Sandor is about to throw his own life away for revenge in the ultimate "Do As I Say, Not As I Do" moment. Even when he had already narratively gotten over his hate and need for vengeance, which was the grounds from which he was supposed to be able to teach Arya that lesson.

 

[THORin]

And any touching quality their final moment could have had gets ruined when you realize that Sandor is about to throw his own life away for revenge in the ultimate "Do As I Say, Not As I Do" moment. Even when he had already narratively gotten over his hate and need for vengeance, which was the grounds from which he was supposed to be able to teach Arya that lesson.

Yeah, I’d never thought about it, but it really makes no sense. And it makes no sense for Arya to decide to leave, in my opinion: there seemed to be no set-up for that. I mean, I get it, it seems like the obvious progression for her character: but the way it’s executed, it just randomly happens without any build-up.

 

[godisawesome]

Really, there were a dozen ways to tell the story around Cleganebowl to make it matter more to other stories around it, or fit with the arcs more.

Maybe Arya starts out for Kingslanding herself to kill Cersei, Sandor finds out, and goes to stop her from being killed, then ironically encounters his brother and Cleganebowl ends up becoming more about Sandor covering for Arya and not just seeking revenge. Make it so Clegnaebowl was still destined, but not as revenge.

Or maybe Sandor survives, but is crippled, and faced with a life without vengeance, gets suicidal again, but gets convinced somehow to Survive by Arya or Tyrion or so etching, and contributes to the realization for Jon that Dany has to be stopped for the sake of others.

 

[8ulk87]

I take umbrage with a point he brought up:

"The fact that Cleganebowl actually happened is hilarious. It was a joke. We were joking."

Uh, what? Everyone wanted to see that. It also turned out to be one of the few really great moments of the final season.

Thats the only point he maybe wrong. Other than that he is spot on on evrything else imho at least.

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

After the Iron Throne was melted, a new throne should have been made. Not with the swords of those conquered but carved out of dragon glass. Beautiful and ornate, it would symbolize how this new Westeros came together by fighting a common enemy.

 

[Marvolo]

George R.R. Martin hopes to finish The Winds of Winter in 2021

Same BS, different year.

 

[Doctor Jones]

Look Gaiman said it best, Martin is not our bench, and the fans are not owed anything, but my problem comes from the principle of just being a writer. Commit to it and finish what you start. Somebody doesn't necessarily need be beholden to a factory type of release date, but ten years is just too long and irresponsible on your own part as someone committing to writing a series.

 

[Drizzle]

I actually feel like the demand for The Winds of Winter dropped post-GOT season 8.

 

[ComicChick]

there were rumors he was going to reveal it as being complete at a con coming up, but it got cancelled

 

[Reek]

there were rumors he was going to reveal it as being complete at a con coming up, but it got cancelled

its been complete for months. hes just a troll.

 

[ComicChick]

*years

 

[CaptainWagner]

George R.R. Martin hopes to finish The Winds of Winter in 2021

Same BS, different year.

I don't know. Admittedly, I'm a new fan, a sweet summer child, if you will, but this feels different. He says he's written three chapters in a week and a half. He named the characters he's been writing and the ones he's starting next. This seems very different from how he's talked about his work for years. So I for one am choosing the tiniest bit of optimism.

 

[Marvolo]

Look Gaiman said it best, Martin is not our *****, and the fans are not owed anything, but my problem comes from the principle of just being a writer. Commit to it and finish what you start. Somebody doesn't necessarily need be beholden to a factory type of release date, but ten years is just too long and irresponsible on your own part as someone committing to writing a series.

People have given Martin millions of dollars. The money that he uses to spend time doing everything but writing. I think as long as Martin is continuing to collect revenue from ASOIAF he owes us 2 more books or at the very least an ending.

 

[Marvolo]

Have yall heard that the shooting script of 8x05 that was submitted to the WGA for archival purposes, the script used at the original table read with the cast, says the wildfyre was supposed to burn down King's Landing. It reads that Danny accidentally sets off the wildfyre cache underground during the start of the battle and then the wildfyre spreads across the city uncontrollably and quickly. This lines up with what one of the vfx crew said during The Bell's audio commentary that the dragon fire in some shots was originally green wildfyre. This also lines up with earlier seasons that established ominously that Cersei continued producing wildfyre like it would have a major payoff and not just be some minor background explosions.

So emilia probably didnt even know how evil D&D were making Dany until she watched the finished episode.

Some are speculating that in the books Cersei will go insane and burn down KL, but D&D didn't want to do that with their precious Cersie. So they had Dany set off the wildfyre. Then decided in Post to further incriminate Danny and further reduce Cersei's part in the destruction by making the wildfire inconsequential in the destruction.

Edit: And now that I think about it the shot of Dany looking broken and unhinged during the tolling of bells could have originally been intended as her reacting to the wildfyre destroying the city she desperately risked all for, and angrily flying off to go kill Cersei. It was a green screen shot so it could have easily been repurposed.

 

[Drizzle]

Have yall heard that the shooting script of 8x05 that was submitted to the WGA for archival purposes, the script used at the original table read with the cast, says the wildfyre was supposed to burn down King's Landing. It reads that Danny accidentally sets off the wildfyre cache underground during the start of the battle and then the wildfyre spreads across the city uncontrollably and quickly. This lines up with what one of the vfx crew said during The Bell's audio commentary that the dragon fire in some shots was originally green wildfyre. This also lines up with earlier seasons that established ominously that Cersei continued producing wildfyre like it would have a major payoff and not just be some minor background explosions.

So emilia probably didnt even know how evil D&D were making Dany until she watched the finished episode.

Some are speculating that in the books Cersei will go insane and burn down KL, but D&D didn't want to do that with their precious Cersie. So they had Dany set off the wildfyre. Then decided in Post to further incriminate Danny and further reduce Cersei's part in the destruction by making the wildfire inconsequential in the destruction.

Edit: And now that I think about it the shot of Dany looking broken and unhinged during the tolling of bells could have originally been intended as her reacting to the wildfyre destroying the city she desperately risked all for, and angrily flying off to go kill Cersei. It was a green screen shot so it could have easily been repurposed.

That would have made all the difference, but there's still Dany's speech to the Dothraki and Unsullied in the final episode that paints her to be a warlord.