The Rise of Skywalker Kelly Marie Tran as Rose Tico (IX)

[Spider-Fan]

With the time frame available, the lack of story cohesions between films 7 and 8, and lack of direction from those higher up? Good luck finding quality talent with those stipulations hanging over their head.

Once again, don't pile on crap in your movie if you can't do it all. Only write a story large enough that you can manage. JJ tried to fit in too much, so yes it is his fault

 

[jmc]

Again, what this story of this trilogy? Hell, what's the story of the first two movies? I can tell you the answer. There is none. There is no underlying structure that seamlessly connects those two films. When you've got nothing unifying the first two movies, you cant possible make a conclusion that is satisfactory because you're trying to fix those inconsistencies. You're not dealing with individual stories, you're dealing with a three act structure over the course of 3 films. JJ is only at fault for doing Kennedy a favour and taking the job. I'll go so far as to say this - there isn't a single director in the world who could have come up with a final chapter that could have rectified the conflict and derailment in structure between TFA and TLJ. None. No-one is that talented.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

Episode 8 should have been about...

Spoiler

...exploring the mysteries behind Snoke and the First Order, leading up to Palpatine's resurrection at the end of Ep 8. Snoke would be a creation of the Sith cultists, designed to groom Kylo to accept the mantle of Sith Lord (and thus, all the spirits and knowledge of past Sith Lords) by striking down Palpatine in hatred once he is resurrected.

The reason Snoke was after Luke in TFA would be because he knows Luke was searching with Lando for Exegol, and feared that he might uncover the secret of what was happening there.

Meanwhile, Rey would try convincing Luke to join the Resistance, but Luke would explain that he had been struggling with the dark side and knew he would turn if he tried killing Kylo, and had come to the conclusion that the Skywalkers were innately predispositioned to fall to the dark side, on account of the fact that Anakin was a creation of the Sith, a tool made to manipulate the Jedi into using their own prophecy against them (it would be unclear if this is actually true, but it would be the conclusion Luke would come to after studying the history surrounding his father).

The Resistance, instead of getting into a boring low speed space chase, would be cornered by the First Order and nearly wiped out in the first act of the movie. Luke would answer the call to action much more quickly, once he learns of the Resistance's dire situation. He would show up and attack the First Order with a devestating display of Force power, driving them off, but in doing so he would nearly fall to the dark side, only barely rejecting it. For the rest of the movie, Luke would agree to accompany Rey and train her as they search for the secret to finding Exegol, but Rey would need to fend for herself because of Luke's diminishing ability to resist the dark side.

Finn would wake up after an unspecified time skip following the first act. His injuries would not be played off as a gag, but rather he would find that he had to be reconstructed with a mechanical spine. Finn's character arc would be about him meeting Jannah and the other renegade stormtroopers, and finding his own sense of purpose independant from Rey. His Force sensitivity would also be explored in this movie, so that Rey could start training him in earnest in Ep 9.

Oh, and Kylo's story arc would be geared around setting up his eventual redemption, rather than setting him up to be a tyrannical ruler. Give him sympathic motivations behind turning to the dark side, play up the fact that the lingering spirit of Palpatine, bound inside Vader's mask (until the cultists successfully resurrect him at the end of Ep 8) is ****ing with his head, give him an "oh **** this is more than what I signed up for" moment when he realizes the full extent of the what the Sith have planned for him and what they intend to do to the galaxy.


Basically, what they should've done was kick Rian Johnson to the curb and spread the concepts behind RoS out across two movies.

 

[henzINNIT]

Jannah isn't just a female version of Finn, though. She was a freedom fighter, independent of the Resistance. If she'd been introduced in Ep 8, she would have given Finn the same perpective: that it's important to oppose the First Order. It also allows for more introspection on why Finn and the other stormtroopers defected, and how they can help other stormtroopers who want to defect or who have already defected.

Rose being a huge fan a Finn didn't even really make sense. It had been only a few days since Finn defected and all Finn did was give the Resistance some intel. Felt way too meta. A more logical and interesting direction would be if the Resistance members were distrustful of Finn at first.

Who's freedom was she fighting for? Genuine question cause I don't recall her team doing anything on that planet before the Resistance showed up. I don't see the value in speculating on what Jannah could have done in episode 8 when she did almost nothing in 9. I agree that delving into life as a First Order troop was a good idea. I don't begrudge Johnson for doing something else with Finn in TLJ though, cause he did do something. It's a much bigger problem that Abrams did so little with Finn in TROS.

How does it not make sense? You're a Resistance grunt and suddenly you hear about this guy who: defected from the First Order, helped free Poe Dameron, returned his droid with a map to Luke Skywalker, brought Han Solo back in to the fight, provided intel on Starkiller base, performed a daring rescue there and nearly died fighting Kylo Ren himself. Rose only needed to hear a fraction of that to look up to the guy.

As for the Resistance distrusting him, it certainly could have been interesting and I would have used that as the catalyst for Poe and Holdo's strained relationship. Maybe even make Finn the reason the First Order could track them. It would have been strange to depict the Resistance as particularly suspicious of him after TFA though. He was welcomed with open arms in that.

Jannah had a whole 2 scenes of character development. They're chemistry was very superficial IMO. Same for Poe and Russell's character. Those plot lines needed more time to bake.

Even 2 is a stretch imo. I only remember that one conversation. The script is plagued with "arcs" that consist of one conversation and then a small moment later to pay it off.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Again, what this story of this trilogy? Hell, what's the story of the first two movies? I can tell you the answer. There is none. There is no underlying structure that seamlessly connects those two films. When you've got nothing unifying the first two movies, you cant possible make a conclusion that is satisfactory because you're trying to fix those inconsistencies. You're not dealing with individual stories, you're dealing with a three act structure over the course of 3 films. JJ is only at fault for doing Kennedy a favour and taking the job. I'll go so far as to say this - there isn't a single director in the world who could have come up with a final chapter that could have rectified the conflict and derailment in structure between TFA and TLJ. None. No-one is that talented.

None of this planning that you're talking about has anything to do with the fact that JJ Abrams simply put too much stuff in the movie. If you're making a movie and a plot line ultimately is not baked, then it needs to be cut and you need to streamline the story. There is an old adage in the NFL that if you have two quarterbacks then you have none. This principle can apply to writing as well. If you have too much plot, then you have no plot at times. This movie is very guilty of that. Too much plot, no story. Nobody told JJ Abrams that he had to add a bunch of new characters who get maybe two whole scenes of character development and ultimately could have been cut from the story which would have allowed the story that was more important time to bake properly.

It doesn't matter if this movie wasn't spoon-fed a plot line from the previous one. The movie you're making is responsible for its own creative choices. JJ Abrams is responsible for adding too much plot to this movie. He is the only one that is along with Chris Terrio. No amount of complaining about the lack of foresight and planning changes that. Bad writing is bad writing.

 

[Mani-Man]

@Spider-Fan Thats the thing where im not sure if this is on Abrams.
I could absolutly see Disney telling him to do this or that, to go heavy with the fanservice and stuff.
But then in the end you can not put the blame on one side i think.

It is as much Abrams fault as Disneys i think.
I so want to hear about the details in all of this, what disney wanted and demanded, what Abrams wanted, what Johnson wanted...the movies tell one part of the story...but i want to know what was going on behind the scenes to understand it all.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

Who's freedom was she fighting for? Genuine question cause I don't recall her team doing anything on that planet before the Resistance showed up. I don't see the value in speculating on what Jannah could have done in episode 8 when she did almost nothing in 9. I agree that delving into life as a First Order troop was a good idea. I don't begrudge Johnson for doing something else with Finn in TLJ though, cause he did do something. It's a much bigger problem that Abrams did so little with Finn in TROS.

Well, I don't think it was clearly specified, but my point is that the concept of Finn running into a group of renegade stormtroopers is far more appealing to me than the concept of Finn going to a casino with some mechanic.

Another direction they could have gone was have Jannah contrast with Poe. Have Poe go with Finn and be the gung-ho Resistance loyalist, and have Jannah be on the other side trying to convince Finn that he is better off staying out of conflict and living a peaceful life. Hell, maybe have a thing where the renegade stormtroopers are just straight up pacifists, or at least unwilling to kill fellow stormtroopers, so when Phasma shows up looking for Finn she finds all these guys who are unwilling to fight back, forcing Finn to choose between saving his own skin or defending them. There's a wealth of untapped potential in the concept of Finn as a stormtrooper that TJL just brushed over, instead giving him an arc that could have been given to any random person who wasn't particularly loyal to the Resistance.

How does it not make sense? You're a Resistance grunt and suddenly you hear about this guy who: defected from the First Order, helped free Poe Dameron, returned his droid with a map to Luke Skywalker, brought Han Solo back in to the fight, provided intel on Starkiller base, performed a daring rescue there and nearly died fighting Kylo Ren himself. Rose only needed to hear a fraction of that to look up to the guy.

Hearing all that wouldn't automatically make me assume he's some amazing hero. That was just, like, one day of stuff that he did.

Like, if I'm a soldier in the US military, and I hear about some guy who defected from ISIS last week and joined the US military after helping an American POW escape from prison, I might think "Oh hey, that's probably a pretty cool guy", but I wouldn't automatically be like "That guy's my hero!". And if I then met him and found out he was kind of a dick, I would be like "Ah, guess he's actually kind of a dick".

As for the Resistance distrusting him, it certainly could have been interesting and I would have used that as the catalyst for Poe and Holdo's strained relationship. Maybe even make Finn the reason the First Order could track them. It would have been strange to depict the Resistance as particularly suspicious of him after TFA though. He was welcomed with open arms in that.

That's a good point. That one's on TFA.

 

[Spider-Fan]

@Spider-Fan Thats the thing where im not sure if this is on Abrams.
I could absolutly see Disney telling him to do this or that, to go heavy with the fanservice and stuff.
But then in the end you can not put the blame on one side i think.

It is as much Abrams fault as Disneys i think.
I so want to hear about the details in all of this, what disney wanted and demanded, what Abrams wanted, what Johnson wanted...the movies tell one part of the story...but i want to know what was going on behind the scenes to understand it all.

One could try to make that argument, but this is not at all uncommon for a JJ Abrams movie. It's one of my critiques of him as a filmmaker. This movie is just all of his flaws as a writer and director cranked up to 11. Look at something like Star Trek Into Darkness. Has many of the same flaws this movie did. The over-reliance on nostalgia at the expense of the story, rushing through story so that nothing ultimately matters, plot threads that are incredibly underbaked, Etc. For this reason, since Disney had no involvement in other JJ Abrams movies such as that, I think it's fair of me to put the blame on JJ Abrams based on past history.

 

[henzINNIT]

Well, I don't think it was clearly specified, but my point is that the concept of Finn running into a group of renegade stormtroopers is far more appealing to me than the concept of Finn going to a casino with some mechanic.

Another direction they could have gone was have Jannah contrast with Poe. Have Poe go with Finn and be the gung-ho Resistance loyalist, and have Jannah be on the other side trying to convince Finn that he is better off staying out of conflict and living a peaceful life. Hell, maybe have a thing where the renegade stormtroopers are just straight up pacifists, or at least unwilling to kill fellow stormtroopers, so when Phasma shows up looking for Finn she finds all these guys who are unwilling to fight back, forcing Finn to choose between saving his own skin or defending them. There's a wealth of untapped potential in the concept of Finn as a stormtrooper that TJL just brushed over, instead giving him an arc that could have been given to any random person who wasn't particularly loyal to the Resistance.

That's all fair enough, it's just that I'm lamenting the choices this film made at present. We had another deserter for Finn to interact with in TROS and they blew it. Even the small role it occupied here was cut down in editing. It's a shame we lost the Lando backstory.

Hearing all that wouldn't automatically make me assume he's some amazing hero. That was just, like, one day of stuff that he did.

Like, if I'm a soldier in the US military, and I hear about some guy who defected from ISIS last week and joined the US military after helping an American POW escape from prison, I might think "Oh hey, that's probably a pretty cool guy", but I wouldn't automatically be like "That guy's my hero!". And if I then met him and found out he was kind of a dick, I would be like "Ah, guess he's actually kind of a dick".

This is a defecting trooper that helped a star US soldier escape, that delivered a map to 2Pac and arrived with Chuck Norris in tow, that had useful information about the Russian base that just nuked the senate. He then rescued Greta Thumberg from said base and is currently walking off a sword fight with Putin.

But yeah, Rose is a bit naive in the beginning. She had just suffered a very significant loss, so she needed to believe in heroes, that her sister was a hero, and her sacrifice mattered. Finn isn't just a disappointment compared to the stories about him, his apparent cowardice is disrespectful to the brave soldiers who are really dying for the cause. It's not just the wacky side-quest where Finn finds his conscience, but also a girl processing her grief. She's quite standoffish early on, cynical. The moment where Rose pets a space horse and says "now it's worth it" is much maligned (largely because their "win" was minor and likely short lived) but to me it's Rose coming to terms with loss in the face of a brief moment of beauty. That's how I read it anyway.

 

[Kane52630]

Whether or not her character was written well, it's a shame they bent the knee to the alt right nerds.

 

[GREEN =w= DAY]

 

[Sithborg]

One could try to make that argument, but this is not at all uncommon for a JJ Abrams movie. It's one of my critiques of him as a filmmaker. This movie is just all of his flaws as a writer and director cranked up to 11. Look at something like Star Trek Into Darkness. Has many of the same flaws this movie did. The over-reliance on nostalgia at the expense of the story, rushing through story so that nothing ultimately matters, plot threads that are incredibly underbaked, Etc. For this reason, since Disney had no involvement in other JJ Abrams movies such as that, I think it's fair of me to put the blame on JJ Abrams based on past history.

To be fair, I think you can sort out the Terrio wrinkles from the Kurtzman/Orci wrinkles as well...

 

[jolldan]

View attachment 31002

Damn it you beat me to it

 

[Donner]

It's KMT'S birthday today and the Twitter replies to the Star Wars accounts posting happy birthday are predictably awful.

This fandom can really suck.

 

[Sian]

Agree with you there. I used to be proud of being a SW fan, but sadly not any more.

 

[Sian]

Again, what this story of this trilogy? Hell, what's the story of the first two movies? I can tell you the answer. There is none. There is no underlying structure that seamlessly connects those two films. When you've got nothing unifying the first two movies, you cant possible make a conclusion that is satisfactory because you're trying to fix those inconsistencies. You're not dealing with individual stories, you're dealing with a three act structure over the course of 3 films. JJ is only at fault for doing Kennedy a favour and taking the job. I'll go so far as to say this - there isn't a single director in the world who could have come up with a final chapter that could have rectified the conflict and derailment in structure between TFA and TLJ. None. No-one is that talented.

The entire point of the trilogy was to erase Lucass' original characters and replace them with new ones. Not even Ben Solo was allowed to live. Unfortunately for this disappointed former SW fan. Poe, Finn and Rey will NEVER be a patch on Han, Luke and Leia.

 

[Mani-Man]

It's KMT'S birthday today and the Twitter replies to the Star Wars accounts posting happy birthday are predictably awful.

This fandom can really suck.

They still keep hating on this woman...talk about petty.
Wasnt it enough that he character was barely in Episode 9?
They got their wish, bullied the actress from twitter and got her role reduced...what more do those dumbnuts want?

I have given up long ago going too deep into the fandom, especially on twitter...its a disgrace to everything star wars stands for.

 

[henzINNIT]

It's become too disgusting for me to engage with on any level. People are still raging over 3 years later. The level of entitlement is off the charts. Even getting Luke in Mandalorian had to be seen as dirt thrown at TLJ. And you know most of these venomous fools subscribe to Disney+, pre-order the games and buy the toys. What a pitiful, cynical existence.

Tran got royally shafted in all of this. Hope she's doing alright. She got the golden ticket to the Wonka factory, only to find the world was on fire when she got back and everyone was blaming her.

 

[terry78]

Bring cast in a star wars anything is grounds for losing your sanity.

 

[Sian]

It's become too disgusting for me to engage with on any level. People are still raging over 3 years later. The level of entitlement is off the charts. Even getting Luke in Mandalorian had to be seen as dirt thrown at TLJ. And you know most of these venomous fools subscribe to Disney+, pre-order the games and buy the toys. What a pitiful, cynical existence.

Tran got royally shafted in all of this. Hope she's doing alright. She got the golden ticket to the Wonka factory, only to find he world was on fire when she got back and everyone was blaming her.

Thing is, TLJ might not have been everyone's cup of tea, but did it really deserve such hatred?
TROS broke my heart but I would never lower myself to sending its stars and writer/directors death threats. TLJ did nothing to earn such contempt.

 

[Hunter Rider]

 

[Mani-Man]

This Woman deserves all good in the world.
I will forever despise those who drove her from social media or in general gave her a hard time during Star Wars...including Grace ****ing Randolph that smelly raccoon.