Amazon's Rings of Power - General Discussion Thread (SPOILERS)

[Deck Rickard]

Well, take from this what you will, but the ROP Instagram page just posted an image of Sauron (same one from the premiere) with the words “IT IS TIME.” So maybe we will get a reveal after all.

 

[InCali]

Really enjoyed that Hollywood Reporter article. Clearly the showrunners care deeply and are trying to take some lessons away from the 1st season (though I think they've done a decent job so far, and man I ate episode 6 right up).

Personally, I would MUCH rather have what RoP is so ambitiously trying to do--even despite the lack of Silmarillion rights--than what all these other parties were pitching as far as Third Age reboots or Young Aragorn shows. No thanks.

Agree about the other "options". Those "options" had a lot less potential IMO; although I would have definitely watched them IF they had been done in a way that reflected the writings.

WRT the showrunners "caring" about the material or the Tolkien legacy, I don't really buy that and they seem like empty words to me. Just because they say they care, doesn't make it so. I mean, they're not gonna say "Hey, look. This was a good gig. I'm familiar with the material and we're going to put together something that we think people will like."

If you care about the material, the very least you can do would be to reflect it. There's almost nothing in this show (besides some places, names, and, perhaps, some out of context events) that reflects the writings of the author. I thought PJ took too many liberties with the material because the best parts of the movies were where he stuck to the books and, where he strayed, it really didn't work in just about every case. It was, at least, recognizable that his story was the saga of the War of the Ring. This show is so out of sync with the timelines and (sparse) narrative of the 2nd age, that it qualifies as a complete reimagination of the events and I see it, as well as find some entertainment value in it, for what it is.

 

[InCali]

I don't see anything inherently bad with holding off on Sauron and wanting to show other things first. I haven't enjoyed the show that much but it's more the execution and choices below that large idea that isn't resonating with me.

I do still find it odd that they choose the name Rings of Power if that's not the focus of the show until later seasons though, as the name definitely creates specific expectations. That's like if House of the Dragon didn't deal with the Targaryens in the first season.

Rings, hobbits, wizards, balrogs, Sauron, etc. are "popular" and bring viewership. For "suspense" value, certain "popular" aspects are being held back (Sauron and Rings).

I still think a better approach would have been to bring Sauron, in a different and/or disguised form as laid out in the appendices, in early and shown the trickery and deception of a Maia. It's possible that he already has been introduced and that part of it could still work, but I would rather see a scenario where we still don't know if, or which, one of the current characters is Sauron, but have scenes of him in a truer form that gradually reveals his devices. A trickier, but way more interesting, storyline.

 

[InCali]

Oh, and as long as we're talking about pitches to the estate, my pitch would have been for a story about the 1st age, Years of the Trees, and the beginning before time. If done correctly, it would have been an epic setup for a story about the 2nd age.

 

[Boom]

Amazon’s negotiating team (led by Sharon Tal Yguado, Roy Price and Dan Scharf) wooed the estate not with a specific pitch, but with a pledge of a close relationship that would give the estate a creative seat at the table so it could protect Tolkien’s legacy.

Which makes it all the more bewildering that the showrunners aren't able to use certain things and are forced to write around those limitations. If the Tolkien Estate has direct input in the creative process, why would they not give Amazon access to material as needed? If this is all in the name of "protecting Tolkien's legacy," why be so restrictive? Especially if they have a seat at the table?

 

[InCali]

Which makes it all the more bewildering that the showrunners aren't able to use certain things. If the Estate has direct input in the creative process, why would they not give Amazon access to material as needed?

The whole approach doesn't really make sense to me, but I'm pretty much, as are the rest of us, ignorant of the details of how this show came to be. If what we're hearing about input into the creative process is true, it tells me that the estate itself wasn't very concerned about a retelling of the story of the 2nd age and was fine with an entirely different, made up, narrative. That's really, really perplexing to me as their best long term interest, I think, is in a compelling, retelling of the stories.

 

[Boom]

That's kinda where I'm stuck.

HBO's pitch was a retread, Netflix's pitch screamed "cash grab." Makes sense why the Estate would get spooked by both of those. But here comes Amazon promising the Estate a seat at the table and allowing them direct creative input. I just figured that offering such peace of mind to the Estate would afford Amazon certain liberties in terms of material access. Guess not.

"We want to be part of the creative process, we want to preserve Tolkien's legacy, but you can't use this, this, this, this and this. Make something up. Now, that'll be $250 million dollars."

Such a bizarre arrangement.

 

[Deck Rickard]

Yeah that is really strange. Whether you like what the show is doing or not, I think you have to give the showrunners some credit for crafting a narrative around all of these restrictions that is resonating with at least some fans (hardcore and casual).

It’s also a little perplexing to me that the Tolkien estate seems to view Peter Jackson as Morgoth incarnate for the changes he made but they gave this show their seal of approval even though it’s making much bigger changes. For the record, I like both the PJ films and this show and don’t have any major issues with the changes made to either one (so far at least). But there were definitely bigger changes made here in order to move certain events in the timeline closer together and to create storylines for completely new characters.

I guess it might just be money talking but it’s not like PJ’s movies didn’t make these coattail riders even richer than they already were.

 

[InCali]

Yeah that is really strange. Whether you like what the show is doing or not, I think you have to give the showrunners some credit for crafting a narrative around all of these restrictions that is resonating with at least some fans (hardcore and casual).

It’s also a little perplexing to me that the Tolkien estate seems to view Peter Jackson as Morgoth incarnate for the changes he made but they gave this show their seal of approval even though it’s making much bigger changes. For the record, I like both the PJ films and this show and don’t have any major issues with the changes made to either one (so far at least). But there were definitely bigger changes made here in order to move certain events in the timeline closer together and to create storylines for completely new characters.

I guess it might just be money talking but it’s not like PJ’s movies didn’t make these coattail riders even richer than they already were.

Something just doesn't fit and I have the strong feeling we're not getting the entire story. I'm not convinced that Amazon is as limited as people "think" they are and I'm not sure the estate has the input into the show or the desire to protect the long term interests of the IP.

Something is just off and I don't think any of us know what really went down and is going on. We're just engaged in guess work and pointing fingers at either group seems to me to be done out of ignorance.

 

[Deck Rickard]

I was listening to the Lorehounds podcast and they were talking about how bizarre the overall rights deal is. Supposedly the estate mandated that they can’t make more than eight episodes per season (or maybe it’s that they have to do at least eight episodes). Either way, I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a mandate like that from the owner of an IP.

 

[Elayis]

Maybe they get residuals from the episodes themselves? I know part of why the Netflix/Marvel deal fell apart was because Marvel wanted more episodes (meaning more money earned per season) and Netflix wanted less (less overall cost to produce).

 

[Deck Rickard]

Maybe they get residuals from the episodes themselves? I know part of why the Netflix/Marvel deal fell apart was because Marvel wanted more episodes (meaning more money earned per season) and Netflix wanted less (less overall cost to produce).

Possibly, yeah. But if the mandate was that they couldn’t make MORE than 8 episodes per season then I don’t see how that would have benefited the estate.

 

[Ctfxcwatcher]

I’m glad that didn’t happen. I’m sure it will eventually, but I don’t need a 50-hour version of that story. LOTR is my favorite book of all time, but my unpopular opinion of it is that Tolkien needed a better editor. There’s stuff in there that adds little to the story (sorry, Bombadil stans) while things that SHOULD have been included, even if only in flashbacks, are unfortunately left to the appendices (e.g., exploring the Aragorn/Arwen love story so that Aragorn doesn’t look like a complete d*** for abruptly spurning Eowyn). I know some (maybe all) of you will disagree and I’m not going to pretend that I will ever be anything close to the writer Tolkien was. But as someone who edits for a living (and as someone who loves Tolkien even with my criticisms) I feel that LOTR could have been improved through better editing.

The PJ films aren’t perfect but they trimmed a lot of the fat while adding more material for characters who were lacking on the book. And they honestly still hold up. Even with modern special effects, I doubt you would get the same exhilarating feeling in a new show when Gandalf and Pippen arrive at Minas Tirith for the first time.

(I’m sorry if this came off like an attack on anyone who wants to see a new version of LOTR; I don’t mean it to be. This is just how I feel about it.)

I actually feel the same way

 

[Ctfxcwatcher]

I do wonder how this show would be received on HBO. Part of me feels like it wouldn't get the huge backlash it has gotten because people trust HBO more with prestige TV. But another part of me knows that the purist would still have gripes with things. HBO is really great at marketing their shows and is able to penetrate that very important 18-49 demo though. Also they are great at campaigning their shows for Emmys. it's such a what if situation here.

 

[Ctfxcwatcher]

Yeah that is really strange. Whether you like what the show is doing or not, I think you have to give the showrunners some credit for crafting a narrative around all of these restrictions that is resonating with at least some fans (hardcore and casual).

It’s also a little perplexing to me that the Tolkien estate seems to view Peter Jackson as Morgoth incarnate for the changes he made but they gave this show their seal of approval even though it’s making much bigger changes. For the record, I like both the PJ films and this show and don’t have any major issues with the changes made to either one (so far at least). But there were definitely bigger changes made here in order to move certain events in the timeline closer together and to create storylines for completely new characters.

I guess it might just be money talking but it’s not like PJ’s movies didn’t make these coattail riders even richer than they already were.

They despise the PJ films but the show is taking the films seriously enough to match up with them aesthetically as much as possible. I don't get it lol.

 

[Deck Rickard]

I do wonder how this show would be received on HBO. Part of me feels like it wouldn't get the huge backlash it has gotten because people trust HBO more with prestige TV. But another part of me knows that the purist would still have gripes with things. HBO is really great at marketing their shows and is able to penetrate that very important 18-49 demo though. Also they are great at campaigning their shows for Emmys. it's such a what if situation here.

That is true. I think at least some of the backlash against the show stems from people hating Amazon because Bezos is such a turd. But HBO has Zaslav, and he’s arguably worse. But people don’t associate HBO with him the way they associate Prime with Bezos.

Of course, there are other reasons (some valid and some utter bull****), but I do think Amazon is a factor for some fans.

 

[Elayis]

I do wonder how this show would be received on HBO. Part of me feels like it wouldn't get the huge backlash it has gotten because people trust HBO more with prestige TV. But another part of me knows that the purist would still have gripes with things. HBO is really great at marketing their shows and is able to penetrate that very important 18-49 demo though. Also they are great at campaigning their shows for Emmys. it's such a what if situation here.

Why would the streaming service affect how a show is received? But if Lord of the Rings was on HBO, it wouldn't be Rings of Power. It's already been revealed that HBO's pitch was a remake of the film trilogy.

 

[InCali]

Why would the streaming service affect how a show is received? But if Lord of the Rings was on HBO, it wouldn't be Rings of Power. It's already been revealed that HBO's pitch was a remake of the film trilogy.

Who made what wouldn't affect me one way or the other. As a "purist", I would be saying exactly, exactly the same thing I said if my mother made it.

I would have even been okay with a retelling (more complete) of the War of the Ring; even a combined Hobbit/LotR story. What I really wanted was an Ainulindale, Valaquenta, and Quenta Silmarillion. There is a more fleshed out storyline with some really, really compelling stories within it.

 

[Elayis]

Who made what wouldn't affect me one way or the other. As a "purist", I would be saying exactly, exactly the same thing I said if my mother made it.

I would have even been okay with a retelling (more complete) of the War of the Ring; even a combined Hobbit/LotR story. What I really wanted was an Ainulindale, Valaquenta, and Quenta Silmarillion. There is a more fleshed out storyline with some really, really compelling stories within it.

Yep. While I might prefer HBO to Prime (they've just made more shows I like), in the end they're both corporations and I have no allegiance to a brand. I like House of the Dragon, and I'd still like it if it had been made by Prime or Paramount+ (as long as it was exactly same show).

It's silly to me that people are trying to find scapegoats for why the show has critics. Aside from the obvious racists, Rings of Power has obvious, demonstrable flaws (and that's without even getting into its faithfulness to the source material).

 

[Doctor Jones]

That's kinda where I'm stuck.

HBO's pitch was a retread, Netflix's pitch screamed "cash grab." Makes sense why the Estate would get spooked by both of those. But here comes Amazon promising the Estate a seat at the table and allowing them direct creative input. I just figured that offering such peace of mind to the Estate would afford Amazon certain liberties in terms of material access. Guess not.

"We want to be part of the creative process, we want to preserve Tolkien's legacy, but you can't use this, this, this, this and this. Make something up. Now, that'll be $250 million dollars."

Such a bizarre arrangement.

What were they?

 

[Elayis]

What were they?

HBO wanted to remake the trilogy, Netflix wanted individual spin-off series (Gandalf, Aragorn, etc.).

 

[Doctor Jones]

HBO wanted to remake the trilogy, Netflix wanted individual spin-off series (Gandalf, Aragorn, etc.).

*gulp* Well, I guess we dodged some bullets. But between everything, pick your poison.

 

[Elayis]

*gulp* Well, I guess we dodged some bullets. But between everything, pick your poison.

Yeah, those other two options were literally what I feared when I heard "new Lord of the Rings show", but considering what we go with Rings of Power maybe it wouldn't have been so bad? Sad to see how much potential is being squandered right now. The HBO/Netflix options likely wouldn't have turned out great (especially when compared to the trilogy), but I wonder what kind of names would've been in the mix as showrunners. Hard to imagine getting people worse than Payne/McKay. I still can't comprehend how two guys with literally nothing to their name landed the biggest gig imaginable.

 

[Doctor Jones]

Yeah, those other two options were literally what I feared when I heard "new Lord of the Rings show", but considering what we go with Rings of Power maybe it wouldn't have been so bad? Sad to see how much potential is being squandered right now. The HBO/Netflix options likely wouldn't have turned out great (especially when compared to the trilogy), but I wonder what kind of names would've been in the mix as showrunners. Hard to imagine getting people worse than Payne/McKay. I still can't comprehend how two guys with literally nothing to their name landed the biggest gig imaginable.

Maybe not, it's just more the principle of what media has become today in a late stage capitalism sense. A lot of it comes down to just re-using iconography we already know to help subscribers grow and feed the monster that is this streaming bubble. Rings of Power is a bad "prestige show" which dumbs down the source material that uses the iconography that you know or might know to string you along with the promise of answers. I don't know what's going on in the show, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I predict things are happening at a glacial pace with suggestions of movement and all will be revealed in the finale with things we already know and it'll end on a cliffhanger to make you watch the second season.

I feel icky just typing all of this. It's all cynical in its own way. It's not helping people get passionately invested in arguing over this corporate sludge.

 

[Persona]

Hard to imagine getting people worse than Payne/McKay.

I can very easily imagine a lot of worse showrunners for LotR.

Doesn't sound like Tolkien Estate got good pitches, and Amazon didn't get many worthwhile pitches besides Payne and McKay's.