NealKenneth
Civilian
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2014
- Messages
- 762
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 11
Recent information matters more than old information. The most recent material reflects the studios current plans. Therefore, for example, if there is a conflict between Homecoming and Thor 2, Homecoming wins. If there is a conflict between Civil War and The Avengers, Civil War wins.
The big audience matters more than the small audience. The big audience is watching the films. A smaller audience is watching the television shows. An even smaller audience is buying special editions box sets containing detailed timelines. When there is a conflict between a new movie and an older television series, the new movie wins.
If you need to squint or pause to see the conflict...nobody cares. A lot of people bring up quick flashes of newspapers or blurry calendars in the background as evidence. Although these can cause continuity errors in a technical sense, they do not constitute anything that would bother you unless you were looking for trouble.
With that in mind, here is the new timeline, to the best of my knowledge. It is important to understand that Homecoming is a retcon, and NOT an error. There are three separate references to a span of eight years in the film. If this was an error, it is likely that only one of the three would be inaccurate instead of all three. Additionally, the junior novelization for Homecoming refers to this same timespan being five years. Because novelizations reference early versions of the script, this indicates that the timespan was intentionally changed from five years to eight years later in production. Additionally, five years is accurate to the former timeline. It is extremely unlikely that the studio would alter accurate information in three separate instances accidentally, especially since the three are self-consistent.
Early 2009 - The Incredible Hulk
Spring 2009 - Iron Man
Fall 2009 - Iron Man 2, Thor
Spring 2010 - The Avengers
Winter 2010 - Iron Man 3
2011 - Thor: The Dark World
2013 - The Winter Soldier
2015 - Age of Ultron
Summer 2017 - Civil War
Fall 2017 - Homecoming
To explain this timeline, I will be working backwards from Homecoming, which is the dominant continuity information as of right now. Props for the film were reported to be advertising the 2018 Stark Expo. There is also an identification tile for Glovers character indicating that the year is 2017. Neither of these things would matter in a continuity conflict as they break the squint/pause rule (see above), but they are useful for determining what Marvel current plans are. Since it is commonly known that homecoming celebrations happen in the fall in America, we can be absolutely certain that Homecoming takes place in the fall of 2017.
Homecoming also explicitly states that two months have passed since Civil War. This places Civil War firmly in the summer of 2017.
During Civil War, General Ross mentions that The Avengers have been acting without oversight for four years. This is referring to the events of The Winter Soldier, when SHIELD collapsed and The Avengers became fully independent and privately funded by Stark. This places The Winter Soldier sometime in 2013.
In Civil War, Falcon also states that they looked for Bucky for two years before giving up. Although not explicitly stated, it does appear that they had stopped looking for Bucky by the events of Age of Ultron, placing it somewhere in 2015 or later. Therefore, I have tentatively placed it in 2015 on the timeline.
This is where things get a little tricky, so Im just going to list specific evidence and hopefully you will see why I placed the Phase 1 movies where I did.
Iron Man - In Civil War, Vision says in the eight years since referring to the first Iron Man film. In the timeline presented, the timespan he refers to is about 8 years and 4 to 5 months.
The Avengers - In Homecoming, it is explicitly stated that it has been eight years since The Avengers several times. In the timeline presented, the timespan referred to is about 7 years and 7 to 8 months.
Iron Man 2 - very explicitly six months after the first Iron Man film. It is written on the screen as well as included in dialogue.
Thor - Agent Coulson is reassigned to New Mexico during the film. The events of Thor occur in New Mexico and only span a few days. Therefore, Thor and Iron Man 2 take place at roughly the same time.
The Avengers - Fury refers to the incident with Thor happening last year. Assuming Thor happened late in the year and The Avengers happened early in the year, there could be as little as just a few months between the films. This is reflected in the timeline presented, where it is about six months.
The Incredible Hulk - A common misconception is that this film needs to have taken place at the same time as Thor and Iron Man 2. This is confirmed in Tier 3 or 4 material like box set pamphlets and a comic prelude, but it is NOT evident in the films. Fury shows Stark footage of the Hulk incident at the end of Iron Man 2, but it is not implied that the footage is live or even that the incident occurred recently.
Widow does state in dialogue during The Avengers that it has been over a year since Banner last transformed into Hulk. Therefore, looking only at the films, we can be certain that this film happens over a year before The Avengers and most likely less than 18 months (otherwise Widow would have said almost two years or a year and a half). Therefore, I have tentatively placed it in early 2009.
Thor: The Dark World - Darcy states in dialogue that it has been two years since the first Thor film. This places the film sometime in 2011.
Iron Man 3 - this movie very explicitly happens around the first Christmas following The Avengers. In the timeline presented, this would be Winter 2010. However, placing it here creates the only true continuity conflict with Homecoming that I have been able to find because the film quite explicitly states that it occurs in 2012. The first rule of retcon gives Homecoming the win, but the two films are of equal tier and Iron Man 3 wins the third rule. Homecoming claims primacy only because the first rule has primacy over the third rule.
So why did Marvel retcon the timeline?
I am not sure, but probably something to do with Spider-Man and wanting to keep him in high school for as long as possible. Perhaps it is something grander like preparing for an in-universe time jump sometime during Phase 4? Who knows?
It wasnt as obvious until Homecoming said Eight Years Later in meter-high letters but I believe the retcon actually occurred during Civil War when General Ross mentions that four years have passed without oversight. Most have assumed this timespan referred to The Avengers, because the films were separated by 4 years in real life, but that is inaccurate. SHIELD and Fury oversaw The Avengers until that organization collapsed in The Winter Soldier. It is obvious at the start of that film in particular that Captain America and Widow are taking orders directly from Fury (consequently from SHIELD and the World Security Council.) The entire plot and themes of the film revolve around rejecting this oversight. This leads me to believe the filmakers placed Civil War in 2017 without explicitly stating so on release.
What I am certain of is that this was not an accident and Im fairly confident that the timeline here is what they are working with at the studio. But if Ive missed anything Im sure you guys will let me know.
The big audience matters more than the small audience. The big audience is watching the films. A smaller audience is watching the television shows. An even smaller audience is buying special editions box sets containing detailed timelines. When there is a conflict between a new movie and an older television series, the new movie wins.
If you need to squint or pause to see the conflict...nobody cares. A lot of people bring up quick flashes of newspapers or blurry calendars in the background as evidence. Although these can cause continuity errors in a technical sense, they do not constitute anything that would bother you unless you were looking for trouble.
With that in mind, here is the new timeline, to the best of my knowledge. It is important to understand that Homecoming is a retcon, and NOT an error. There are three separate references to a span of eight years in the film. If this was an error, it is likely that only one of the three would be inaccurate instead of all three. Additionally, the junior novelization for Homecoming refers to this same timespan being five years. Because novelizations reference early versions of the script, this indicates that the timespan was intentionally changed from five years to eight years later in production. Additionally, five years is accurate to the former timeline. It is extremely unlikely that the studio would alter accurate information in three separate instances accidentally, especially since the three are self-consistent.
Early 2009 - The Incredible Hulk
Spring 2009 - Iron Man
Fall 2009 - Iron Man 2, Thor
Spring 2010 - The Avengers
Winter 2010 - Iron Man 3
2011 - Thor: The Dark World
2013 - The Winter Soldier
2015 - Age of Ultron
Summer 2017 - Civil War
Fall 2017 - Homecoming
To explain this timeline, I will be working backwards from Homecoming, which is the dominant continuity information as of right now. Props for the film were reported to be advertising the 2018 Stark Expo. There is also an identification tile for Glovers character indicating that the year is 2017. Neither of these things would matter in a continuity conflict as they break the squint/pause rule (see above), but they are useful for determining what Marvel current plans are. Since it is commonly known that homecoming celebrations happen in the fall in America, we can be absolutely certain that Homecoming takes place in the fall of 2017.
Homecoming also explicitly states that two months have passed since Civil War. This places Civil War firmly in the summer of 2017.
During Civil War, General Ross mentions that The Avengers have been acting without oversight for four years. This is referring to the events of The Winter Soldier, when SHIELD collapsed and The Avengers became fully independent and privately funded by Stark. This places The Winter Soldier sometime in 2013.
In Civil War, Falcon also states that they looked for Bucky for two years before giving up. Although not explicitly stated, it does appear that they had stopped looking for Bucky by the events of Age of Ultron, placing it somewhere in 2015 or later. Therefore, I have tentatively placed it in 2015 on the timeline.
This is where things get a little tricky, so Im just going to list specific evidence and hopefully you will see why I placed the Phase 1 movies where I did.
Iron Man - In Civil War, Vision says in the eight years since referring to the first Iron Man film. In the timeline presented, the timespan he refers to is about 8 years and 4 to 5 months.
The Avengers - In Homecoming, it is explicitly stated that it has been eight years since The Avengers several times. In the timeline presented, the timespan referred to is about 7 years and 7 to 8 months.
Iron Man 2 - very explicitly six months after the first Iron Man film. It is written on the screen as well as included in dialogue.
Thor - Agent Coulson is reassigned to New Mexico during the film. The events of Thor occur in New Mexico and only span a few days. Therefore, Thor and Iron Man 2 take place at roughly the same time.
The Avengers - Fury refers to the incident with Thor happening last year. Assuming Thor happened late in the year and The Avengers happened early in the year, there could be as little as just a few months between the films. This is reflected in the timeline presented, where it is about six months.
The Incredible Hulk - A common misconception is that this film needs to have taken place at the same time as Thor and Iron Man 2. This is confirmed in Tier 3 or 4 material like box set pamphlets and a comic prelude, but it is NOT evident in the films. Fury shows Stark footage of the Hulk incident at the end of Iron Man 2, but it is not implied that the footage is live or even that the incident occurred recently.
Widow does state in dialogue during The Avengers that it has been over a year since Banner last transformed into Hulk. Therefore, looking only at the films, we can be certain that this film happens over a year before The Avengers and most likely less than 18 months (otherwise Widow would have said almost two years or a year and a half). Therefore, I have tentatively placed it in early 2009.
Thor: The Dark World - Darcy states in dialogue that it has been two years since the first Thor film. This places the film sometime in 2011.
Iron Man 3 - this movie very explicitly happens around the first Christmas following The Avengers. In the timeline presented, this would be Winter 2010. However, placing it here creates the only true continuity conflict with Homecoming that I have been able to find because the film quite explicitly states that it occurs in 2012. The first rule of retcon gives Homecoming the win, but the two films are of equal tier and Iron Man 3 wins the third rule. Homecoming claims primacy only because the first rule has primacy over the third rule.
So why did Marvel retcon the timeline?
I am not sure, but probably something to do with Spider-Man and wanting to keep him in high school for as long as possible. Perhaps it is something grander like preparing for an in-universe time jump sometime during Phase 4? Who knows?
It wasnt as obvious until Homecoming said Eight Years Later in meter-high letters but I believe the retcon actually occurred during Civil War when General Ross mentions that four years have passed without oversight. Most have assumed this timespan referred to The Avengers, because the films were separated by 4 years in real life, but that is inaccurate. SHIELD and Fury oversaw The Avengers until that organization collapsed in The Winter Soldier. It is obvious at the start of that film in particular that Captain America and Widow are taking orders directly from Fury (consequently from SHIELD and the World Security Council.) The entire plot and themes of the film revolve around rejecting this oversight. This leads me to believe the filmakers placed Civil War in 2017 without explicitly stating so on release.
What I am certain of is that this was not an accident and Im fairly confident that the timeline here is what they are working with at the studio. But if Ive missed anything Im sure you guys will let me know.
