Justice League A Defense of Warners

[MbJ]

I agree but once they picked Snyder for JL and let him film and edit the movie where all that was left for them to do was finish up the FX they should've just left him alone and ride out the storm and then change direction with the next group of movies after Aquaman. However that wasn't the case and we get the mess we're in right now and it gets worse when you get more and more leaks coming out showing how good this movie could've been even though the tone was more serious.

That's sort of the thing. I'm skeptical about how good his vision would have been after having sat through BVS. We already saw the huge drop in JL's opening weekend due to the response to BVS, so there was really no world where I see this movie as originally conceived having been a big success.

That's why I said delaying and starting over would've been ideal. Letting him shoot the movie and then doing a bunch of reshoots to make it less Snyderish was a half measure that pleased no one.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Was Whedon's smiling Supes really needed ?

The first pic is from deleted Snyder scene and the second one is from movie with Whedon's smiling Supes (complete with CGI mustache removal).

I know they say that - "A smile is worth a thousand .. (dollars ?)"

But really ? When it costs a millions of dollars worth of reshoots ?

To be honest, I never got the criticisms with BvS, so you can imagine them not being positive towards what we got in JL.

Just don’t get WB’s thinking here.

 

[Reel-Man]

That's sort of the thing. I'm skeptical about how good his vision would have been after having sat through BVS. We already saw the huge drop in JL's opening weekend due to the response to BVS, so there was really no world where I see this movie as originally conceived having been a big success.

That's why I said delaying and starting over would've been ideal. Letting him shoot the movie and then doing a bunch of reshoots to make it less Snyderish was a half measure that pleased no one.

Well they already released a truncated movie in theatres with Batman v Superman, where they cut 30 mins out before release. Then they did worse with JL. This is why i don't blame Snyder personally. They already screwed with his vision on his second movie, where there was no backlash at that point. Most people agreed that the 3h cut of BvS was much more coherent and pretty much a different movie. They started this mess in the first place, now that they have made their bed, they should lie in it, not Snyder.

 

[MbJ]

That's why I said I blame WB moreso than Snyder himself, since it was clear at that point that they should've gone with a different director for Justice League.

But they arrogantly scheduled production to begin shortly after BVS, not realizing that there was a possibility BVS would not be as well received as they were expecting it to be.

 

[BH/HHH]

I agree with 1&2, number 1 in particular, but I'm not sure I'm entirely sold on the third.

There's already so many people hyping up the Snyder cut based on snippets of (admittedly cool and promising) deleted footage, but what I keep coming back to is the simple fact that you don't pay truckloads of money to fix something that isn't broken. I look at the deleted scenes and go, "wow, this feels more tonally consistent and satisfying than anything in the final film", but I don't see why they'd scrap huge portions of a mostly-finished movie to spend millions hastily cobbling together reshoots (and one of the main actors upper lip!) if there was any chance they didn't need to.

I'm open to discussing this because my mind isn't made up, but I think we'll never really know.

You could have a point but I just feel like given how the film turned out it probably would have been just as wise to let Snyder’s Version be released. I mean I can’t quite buy the narrative that’s WBs had given up on it. If they had why would they bother doing the reshoots in the first place?

I’ll be honest in hindsight I wish they had gone with option 1.

Agree with all of that

Honestly it wouldn’t surprise if some scenes were re-shot/added to just add in the actors smiling. A big criticism of BvS was no one smiling, then we see how WB have reacted to such criticisms previously. Then we see the Aquaman-Bruce
Wayne scene. The part that looks the worst and is the most obvious re-shot part, is Aquaman smiling at the camera.

I think a lot was also re-shot to fit the lighting and tone of the new ‘jokey’ and ‘fun’ version they though they had.

If they had released Snyder’s cut it would have been divisive, as all of his movies are (and I say that as a fan), but a mixed response would have been better than the overly negative one we got from the released movie imo.

I really do hope we get the Snyder cut one day just to put half of these arguments to bed.

Yeah you make a good point because they pretty much alienated everyone. The Snyder fans were pissed at the changes and the non Snyder fans felt like they made changes too late and that they were mostly wrong changes too. Personally for me I do enjoy Justice League but I don’t love it and that hurts me. I also can’t help but cringe at some of the bad CG in the film and for that I’m embarrassed.

 

[Consona]

Tsujihara should abdicate, suits responsible for the course correcting JL should be fired and they should bring Snyder, Terrio and Zimmer back.

 

[MbJ]

Tsujihara should abdicate, suits responsible for the course correcting JL should be fired and they should bring Snyder, Terrio and Zimmer back.

Given that the "course correction" only happened because of BVS in the first place, there's more of a chance of Bryan Singer coming to the DCEU than Snyder returning to direct something.

 

[Patchwork Man]

Given that the "course correction" only happened because of BVS in the first place, there's more of a chance of Bryan Singer coming to the DCEU than Snyder returning to direct something.

Still thy tongue, blasphemer.

 

[MbJ]

There's a million of them I could make. There's more chance of Uwe Boll coming to make a DCEU movie than there is of that. There's more chance of Tommy Wiseau, ect. ect.

 

[Patchwork Man]

Hey, go ahead. If you have the time to kill.

 

[Reel-Man]

I keep reading "a dense of Warners" and it's kind of fitting.

 

[kguillou]

I agree with 1&2, number 1 in particular, but I'm not sure I'm entirely sold on the third.

There's already so many people hyping up the Snyder cut based on snippets of (admittedly cool and promising) deleted footage, but what I keep coming back to is the simple fact that you don't pay truckloads of money to fix something that isn't broken. I look at the deleted scenes and go, "wow, this feels more tonally consistent and satisfying than anything in the final film", but I don't see why they'd scrap huge portions of a mostly-finished movie to spend millions hastily cobbling together reshoots (and one of the main actors upper lip!) if there was any chance they didn't need to.

I'm open to discussing this because my mind isn't made up, but I think we'll never really know.

In my opinion, Flint,and admittedly I am biased because I like Zack, but I think there is the very real possibility that Snyder's cut wasnt "broken" so much as it simply and plainly was NOT the kind of movie the studio wanted. The tone, the way it was paced, the levity, the music, it wasnt what the studio wanted post BvS.

The two minute Superman clip that leaked today I think is representative of the FEEL of the entire ZS JL movie. Lighter, more hopeful and palatable than the prior installments, but still retaining that sort of deliberately paced, ponderous, and more straight faced style that was also present in those prior films. Warner Bros wanted a complete 180 of what MoS and BvS were and, well, they got it. The JL we got in theater is 100% the movie the studio wanted in terms of tone, style, humor, music and pace. A quick, harmless, more PG family friendly movie.

I dont believe that ZS' cut was unwatchable, it just simply wasnt the type of film WB THOUGHT they wanted.

 

[Flint Marko]

In my opinion, Flint,and admittedly I am biased because I like Zack, but I think there is the very real possibility that Snyder's cut wasnt "broke,n" so much as it simply amd plainly NOT the kind of movie the studio wanted. The tone, the way it was paced, the levity, the music, it wasnt what the studio wanted.

The two minute Superman clip that leaked today I think is representative of the FEEL of the entire ZS. Lighter and more hopeful than the prior installments, but still retaining that sort of deliberately paced, ponderous, and more straight faced style that was was also present in those films. Warner Bros wanted a complete 180 or what MoS and BvS were and, well, they got it. The JL we got in theater is 100% the movie the studio wanted in terms of tone, style, humor, music and pace. A more PG family friendly movie.

I dont believe that ZS' cut was unwatchable, it just simply wasnt the type of film WB THOUGHT they wanted.

I think this is all very, very possible.

What I'm having trouble reconciling is the idea that WB would know what was in the finished script and let Snyder finish shooting almost all of it before then switching gears and deciding that isn't what they want, particularly after they all made a point right at the start of production about how different things were going to be this time around.

Is that possible? Absolutely. At this point I wouldn't put anything past WB. But something about that just seems..... off. I really don't know if something that drastic would have happened that late in the game. They would have certainly known what sort of movie Zack was making and would have been poring over the dailies to ensure it turned out as they wanted.

I really can't get my head around this situation.

 

[Rwtakawalter]

I don't blame Snyder or Whedon, I blame WB for what's happened with JL and the DCEU overall. Sure Snyder is a divisive filmmaker with a certain style but didn't WB know this before they gave him the keys to the DC universe? Didn't they know Snyder's vision for JL before they allowed him to begin principal photography?

If anything, they should've brought Whedon on board from the beginning to help Snyder out instead of brining him in at the last minute. WB could've fired Snyder after BvS but nope they went full steam ahead and then they changed their minds and removed him months before the release and reshot a large chunk of the movie and we all know how that turned out.

Look at what WB did with Suicide Squad, brining in a trailer park company to edit the film and removing the "darker" elements and making it "funny" and "light hearted" when in reality it should've been darker and even rated R because it's the SUICIDE SQUAD. WB can't make up their minds and their so reactionary to everything. Also, they could've delayed JL to polish up the cgi but nope they had to get their bonuses by the end of the year and now we will forever have Superman with a noticeable CGI face. It's a shame what's happened to the DC universe

 

[kguillou]

I think this is all very, very possible.

What I'm having trouble reconciling is the idea that WB would know what was in the finished script and let Snyder finish shooting almost all of it before then switching gears and deciding that isn't what they want, particularly after they all made a point right at the start of production about how different things were going to be this time around.

Is that possible? Absolutely. At this point I wouldn't put anything past WB. But something about that just seems..... off. I really don't know if something that drastic would have happened that late in the game. They would have certainly known what sort of movie Zack was making and would have been poring over the dailies to ensure it turned out as they wanted.

I really can't get my head around this situation.

I know this may sound silly and BELIEVE ME I am not defending Warner Bros but it may simply have been a case of "it looked good on paper." Perhaps Zack's bosses read the script and said "OK. THIS is more like it Zack. We'll have to tweak things here and there but this reads like a much more accessible film that we want. Go film." The dailies looked good, Geoff Johns was onboard, everything LOOKED good to the execs.

And then, Snyder edited together his movie. He put his signature visual stamp on it, added some temp Junkie score, the movie was over 3 hours long, more humor...but not enough, still too much seriousness and introspection....the vibe of the film was just not what the bosses had in their heads when they read the script.

I think more often than not, films read a certain way on paper and then when the thing is actualized onscreen it is a completely different beast ( for better or worse)

 

[Chip Chipperson]

No one deserves defending

The studio’s meddling sucked, the director’s overall vision sucked, and the studio sucked even more for giving him the keys to the car, letting him crash it, let him almost crash it again, finally get rid of him and somehow make things even worse.

A hard lump to swallow, but you just take the L, hope they learned their lesson and move on.

 

[MbJ]

No one deserves defending

The studio’s meddling sucked, the director’s overall vision sucked, and the studio sucked even more for giving him the keys to the car, letting him crash it, let him almost crash it again, finally get rid of him and somehow make things even worse.

A hard lump to swallow, but you just take the L, hope they learned their lesson and move on.

This is the most apt comparison I've ever read for this franchise.

 

[Flint Marko]

I know this may sound silly and BELIEVE ME I am not defending Warner Bros but it may simply have been a case of "it looked good on paper." Perhaps Zack's bosses read the script and said "OK. THIS is more like it Zack. We'll have to tweak things here and there but this reads like a much more accessible film that we want. Go film." The dailies looked good, Geoff Johns was onboard, everything LOOKED good to the execs.

And then, Snyder edited together his movie. He put his signature visual stamp on it, added some temp Junkie score, the movie was over 3 hours long, more humor...but not enough, still too much seriousness and introspection....the vibe of the film was just not what the bosses had in their heads when they read the script.

I think more often than not, films read a certain way on paper and then when the thing is actualized onscreen it is a completely different beast ( for better or worse)

I don't think that sounds silly at all, it strikes me as very plausible. Your guess is as good as mine at this point lol. But like I said, something about the timeline tells me that Snyder's version must have had huge glaring issues beyond the vibe/tone just not being right. You can punch up a movie with minor reshoots to add jokes/connective tissue to flesh out character moments. That's actually exactly what Whedon did with Thor the Dark World and it didn't require him to come in and retool a significant percentage of the existing story.

 

[_Superman_]

I don't think that sounds silly at all, it strikes me as very plausible. Your guess is as good as mine at this point lol. But like I said, something about the timeline tells me that Snyder's version must have had huge glaring issues beyond the vibe/tone just not being right. You can punch up a movie with minor reshoots to add jokes/connective tissue to flesh out character moments. That's actually exactly what Whedon did with Thor the Dark World and it didn't require him to come in and retool a significant percentage of the existing story.

See I think what happened is initially it was only supposed to be some small reshoots here and there but once Zack stepped away or was fired the small reshoots turned into something else where the studio keep interfering and adding more and more and that's how we got the movie we got.

 

[herolee10]

I kind of wish we would have some brave fans actually bring up all of these issues at this year's comic con panel, assuming if anyone representing the creative branch for the DCEU shows up.

 

[Micromind]

At last Comic Con, nobody from WB showed up, it will be same this year too, except maybe James Wan making an appearance with the cast.

I doubt Wan will answer even One question related to JL.

 

[herolee10]

At last Comic Con, nobody from WB showed up, it will be same this year too, except maybe James Wan making an appearance with the cast.

I doubt Wan will answer even One question related to JL.

Bummer.

And I doubt any reporters would risked getting potentially blacklisted from Warner Bros by asking these questions to any one that would be in the know at the studio regarding this situation.

Basically, the only way that the Snyder cut will ever see the light of day is if someone with HIGH authority actually backs Snyder up on this issue or at least sees the potential profit in releasing his cut to the public as well.

 

[Micromind]

Most of us realized JL was going to be bad after the news of 2 hour runtime. We didn't expect CGI to be that bad though, I was genuinely shocked how bad it was, especially what they did to Cavill's face.

 

[kguillou]

The 2 hour runtime was the final nail. It was a glaring sign that the movie was in trouble even though a lot of people were saying we were silly to freak out over the runtime.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

Most of us realized JL was going to be bad after the news of 2 hour runtime. We didn't expect CGI to be that bad though, I was genuinely shocked how bad it was, especially what they did to Cavill's face.

First hint there was a problem? WB sucking up to critics by bringing them to the set.
Second hint? Snyder leaving
Third hint? No kick a-- 3rd trailer like WW
Final hint? 2 hour runtime