The Winter Soldier Captain America and killing discussion

[Drz]

I also love the fact that he doesn't have some "no kill" rule like comic books have, because you know, they're comics, but this is "real life" and when it comes down to it, Captain America should be taking down terrorists.

 

[The Endless]

Cap doesn't have a no kill rule in the comics.

 

[Xeno]

Cap doesn't have a no kill rule in the comics.

Cap used to have a no-kill rule, though. The Silver Age comic books were under the Comic Code, which didn't allow heroes to deliberately kill villains. Once the code was abandoned that fell by the wayside.

 

[The Endless]

Ahh yea that's true. But it's better this way. Cap is a soldier, he should kill when he has to.

 

[Drz]

Captain America in comics still has a no kill rule, please, if you don't read comics, don't pretend to know what you're talking about. Thank you.

 

[Keyser Soze]

Captain America in comics still has a no kill rule, please, if you don't read comics, don't pretend to know what you're talking about. Thank you.

And please, if you're going to be so harsh in bashing people for not having adequate comics knowledge, make sure not to overlook the numerous comics in recent years that show Captain America killing enemies. Thank you.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

Captain America in comics still has a no kill rule, please, if you don't read comics, don't pretend to know what you're talking about. Thank you.

No he doesn't, he has a don't-kill-if-it-isn't-necessary rule. He has killed quite a few times without showing remorse. Like in the beginning of TWS storyline.

 

[The Endless]

Captain America in comics still has a no kill rule, please, if you don't read comics, don't pretend to know what you're talking about. Thank you.

Errr... yea he does kill. In fact, he kills in the comic this film is based on. I've been reading comics for 20 odd years so don't question my knowledge, son.

 

[Drz]

And please, if you're going to be so harsh in bashing people for not having adequate comics knowledge, make sure not to overlook the numerous comics in recent years that show Captain America killing enemies. Thank you.

Name me five modern comics of Captain America killing enemies ln thr modern era. I'm solely takking about the 616-Captain America, not the Ultimate one, which is my favorite take on Captain America.

Ps. You can't.

 

[Keyser Soze]

Name me five modern comics of Captain America killing enemies ln thr modern era.

Ps. You can't.

He killed plenty in Ed Brubaker's comics. I know with 100% certainty that he killed during World War II, and I'm pretty sure he has killed in the present too. He doesn't make a habit of it and will avoid it if possible, he's not The Punisher, but he definitely doesn't have a Batman-style "no kill" vow, either.

 

[Drz]

Who did he kill in Brubakers run?

Yeah Captain America killed in WW2, but then he's had the no kill rule. We can argue that Red Skull got killed by Cap in Bru's run, but he was just a robot anyhow.

My point is, the moden day Cap does't kill, but allows Wolverine. Its comics.

 

[Keyser Soze]

Who did he kill in Brubakers run?

Yeah Captain America killed in WW2, but then he's had the no kill rule. We can argue that Red Skull got killed by Cap in Bru's run, but he was just a robot anyhow.

My point is, the moden day Cap does't kill, but allows Wolverine. Its comics.

Well, in your original post you didn't differentiate between WW2 and present, you just said he had a "no kill rule." As far as who specifically he killed in Brubaker's run, I can't recall specific instances off-hand, but there were instances of henchmen getting knocked off of a great height by Cap or getting hit by gunfire where it's not specifically saying he killed them but I'd figure it's implied.

 

[The Endless]

He knocked two guys off a speeding train in the very first issue of Brubaker's run and Agent Carter specifically states they are dead. He puts another one in a coma. There is other examples in the run. Cap kills when he has to. He ain't Batman, he's a soldier.

 

[MahvelBaby!]

Name me five modern comics of Captain America killing enemies ln thr modern era. I'm solely takking about the 616-Captain America, not the Ultimate one, which is my favorite take on Captain America.

Ps. You can't.

....So happy Keyser PWND you

 

[Figs]

....So happy Keyser PWND you

Same here.

I can't stand that type of fan that for some sad reason has to make sure people know they are the most hard core/biggest fan over everyone else and no one's knowledge of that character comes close to theirs.

 

[spider-neil]

I've read a comic where Cap de-cap-itates (see what I did there? ) someone with his shield so he has killed in comics.

 

[captainrogers]

Cap does Not have the strict no kill rule.
He just does it when necessary.
Here is the sequence at the begining of Bru's run that's being referenced.

 

[Keyser Soze]

....So happy Keyser PWND you

Thanks, but I wouldn't say I pwnd anyone, just disagreed with them. Besides, I couldn't even remember the specific instance with the runaway train, just that I was sure I'd read a sequence where some bad guys fall from a height and are presumed dead. It was The Endless who recalled the specific scene and captainrogers who supplied the scan.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

I've read a comic where Cap de-cap-itates (see what I did there? ) someone with his shield so he has killed in comics.

Yeah he cut off Baron Blood's head. Plus the guys in brubakers run, I think he offed some terrorists in the Rieber/Cassaday run in the early 00's as well.

And it's just as well, the no-kill rule is just an outdated holdover from the Comics Code days anyway.

 

[PokeJ]

Pretty funny seeing DrZ get pawned. Lol.

 

[Drz]

Well, in your original post you didn't differentiate between WW2 and present

That was my mistake.

, you just said he had a "no kill rule." As far as who specifically he killed in Brubaker's run, I can't recall specific instances off-hand, but there were instances of henchmen getting knocked off of a great height by Cap or getting hit by gunfire where it's not specifically saying he killed them but I'd figure it's implied.

I'm talking about Captain America making direct kill orders or doing the kill himself. In the Winter Soldier movie, Captain America not only orders the deaths of terrorists, he kills people himself too, which is great, he is a soldier and it is progress to the character, because this is real life.

However in comics, you don't see the Avengers kill off A.I.M, HYDRA, HAMMER, LEVIATHAN and whatnot terrorists.

I mean, if Captain America was okay with killing as his movie version is for example, why are Crossbones, Sin and so on alive? Why didn't Red Skull or Arnim Zola bite the bullet sooner, etc etc.

Here is the sequence at the begining of Bru's run that's being referenced.

Lol, you forgot to add this:

Captain America wasn't his usual self, because of the stress Red Skull has caused him. Steve Rogers has flaws, he's not gonna loose sleep, but the comic Steve doesn't aim for the kill.

If it was Cap's usual behavior, why would Sharon argue againts it?

Look at how Steve Rogers treats Wolverine, the first page is from the initial New Avengers by Bendis, when Wolverine was invited, this is like 9 years old stuff.

Then look at how Wolverine is treated by Captain in Avengers: Endless Wartime, released last year and aimed at Avengers movie fans.

This is from 2-3 years ago from Rick Remender's Secret Avengers, when Captain America requested Hawkeye to lead his new team of Avengers, look how comic morals are still being seen:

"Avengers don't kill", who do you think is the prime example of all Avengers? Captain America.

Now again, if you can find me those non-WW2 kills that Brubaker had Captain America make, remember kill orders and taking down terrorists: I am open ears.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

I mean, if Captain America was okay with killing as his movie version is for example, why are Crossbones, Sin and so on alive? Why didn't Red Skull or Arnim Zola bite the bullet sooner, etc etc.

Lol, you forgot to add this:

Captain America wasn't his usual self, because of the stress Red Skull has caused him. Steve Rogers has flaws, he's not gonna loose sleep, but the comic Steve doesn't aim for the kill.

If it was Cap's usual behavior, why would Sharon argue againts it?

"The man I knew didn't hit that hard unless he had to."She didn't say he never used to kill, she just noticed he had been a lot more aggressive than usual. He also shows little remorse for the murders as opposed to someone with an actual no killing rule. For example, Superman's reaction after killing Zod in MOS.

 

[Drz]

Captain America kills alot of people in The Winter Soldier and you could argue he didn't have to do that. From the pirates in the Indian sea and the 3rd act explosions that Steve causes.

He doesn't have the same kind of "no kill" rule that Batman does, but Captain America in the comics doesn't go on the same killing path that the movie incarnation does.

Those terrorists died because Cap was under stress, in this year's Captain America ongoing Captain America would had killed Nuke, if Falcon hadn't stopped him, because Cap was stressed out.

Cap isn't a flawless man, i like that, but the comic book Avengers don't kill barely, but the movie ones do.

 

[Keyser Soze]

That was my mistake.



I'm talking about Captain America making direct kill orders or doing the kill himself. In the Winter Soldier movie, Captain America not only orders the deaths of terrorists, he kills people himself too, which is great, he is a soldier and it is progress to the character, because this is real life.

However in comics, you don't see the Avengers kill off A.I.M, HYDRA, HAMMER, LEVIATHAN and whatnot terrorists.

I mean, if Captain America was okay with killing as his movie version is for example, why are Crossbones, Sin and so on alive? Why didn't Red Skull or Arnim Zola bite the bullet sooner, etc etc.

Lol, you forgot to add this:

Captain America wasn't his usual self, because of the stress Red Skull has caused him. Steve Rogers has flaws, he's not gonna loose sleep, but the comic Steve doesn't aim for the kill.

If it was Cap's usual behavior, why would Sharon argue againts it?

Look at how Steve Rogers treats Wolverine, the first page is from the initial New Avengers by Bendis, when Wolverine was invited, this is like 9 years old stuff.

Then look at how Wolverine is treated by Captain in Avengers: Endless Wartime, released last year and aimed at Avengers movie fans.

This is from 2-3 years ago from Rick Remender's Secret Avengers, when Captain America requested Hawkeye to lead his new team of Avengers, look how comic morals are still being seen:

"Avengers don't kill", who do you think is the prime example of all Avengers? Captain America.

Now again, if you can find me those non-WW2 kills that Brubaker had Captain America make, remember kill orders and taking down terrorists: I am open ears.

None of those scans suggest that Captain America has a "no-kill" code....

First scan has Sharon Carter saying that, before his emotional turmoil, he didn't kill "unless he has to," not that he had made a vow against ever committing murder under any circumstance.

Second and third scan featuring Cap's relationship with Wolverine isn't about him disapproving of Wolverine killing at all, but disagreeing with Wolverine's methods, how he's too violent and casual about killing. In that third one Wolverine assumes Cap will think him not a "good soldier", not because he killed, but because he killed someone retreating who wasn't a threat to him. There's a Bucky/Cap flashback scene I read where Bucky goes to shoot an escaping Nazi with a sniper rifle and Captain America stops him, saying that you don't shoot someone in the back, because if they're running away, it means they've stopped fighting and they're not a threat to you. Again, not "I'll never kill", but "I'll only kill if it's absolutely necessary."

As for the last one, you're really reaching there. Captain America isn't even in the scene at all, and you're playing six degrees of Kevin Bacon with "Hawkeye says Avengers don't kill... Captain America embodies the ideal values of an Avenger.... therefore he must have a no-kill code."

And the goalposts of your argument keep on changing. First it was....

"Captain America has a no kill rule in the comics."

Then it was brought up that he killed lots of people in World War 2. Then you said your point was....

"Captain America has a no kill rule in the present day."

Then someone provided a scan where him and Sharon talk about him killing a couple of bad guys in the present day. So now your point has changed to "Captain America doesn't make premeditated kill orders on terrorists in the present day?"

 

[Keyser Soze]

Captain America kills alot of people in The Winter Soldier and you could argue he didn't have to do that. From the pirates in the Indian sea and the 3rd act explosions that Steve causes.

He doesn't have the same kind of "no kill" rule that Batman does, but Captain America in the comics doesn't go on the same killing path that the movie incarnation does.

Those terrorists died because Cap was under stress, in this year's Captain America ongoing Captain America would had killed Nuke, if Falcon hadn't stopped him, because Cap was stressed out.

Cap isn't a flawless man, i like that, but the comic book Avengers don't kill barely, but the movie ones do.

I would say his movie incarnation is actually pretty consistent with his comic version. Both of them are generally opposed to killing, will avoid it if they can, but they will kill if its necessary in a combat situation.