Debate #2: To Be or Not to be a Sue

[Goddessreicho]

Attack of the Sue
​

The art of Mary Sue'ism/Marty Stu'ism has been taken to extreme in X3. That is no joke or debate. That is a fact. Part of the reason is because the popularity of the X-men is built on the backs of the trifecta of Mary Sues in the X-Universe. That's not a good thing. It never is, no matter who the Sue is that's involved.

Now, what is a Mary Sue, some may ask? Well, to put it plainly, a Mary Sue is a awful badly written character. Most often perfect, flawless, exotically beautiful, uber powerful, young, lucky, super-smart, the love interest, mysterious, angsty just enough for self-introspection (but doesn't find the time to analyze anyone not in his/her social circle), and only there to be a over used plot device because the story centers around them and the torture for the audience climaxes when the Sue gets kidnapped or "tragically" (and FINALLY) dies. The last trait is a MUST for hardcore Sues. More often than not supporting characters are left in the way-side or discarded for the Sue. They suffer from quickly written or unfinished story lines.

The biggest most annoying tell-tale sign of a Mary Sue/Marty Stu is the fact that the character represents the author or someone that the author wants to be/do in some way shape or form.

Infamous Mary Sue/Marty Sue
Wesley Crusher (Star Trek)

Kate (Lost)

Elizabeth Swann (Pirates of the Caribbean)

The Anti-Sue (a character with completixy, growth potential, and has issues)
Any Character from Heroes

John Locke (Lost)

Alrighty folks. To sum it up, the team here (I luv this site!) has this quote for those infamous Trekki Mary Sues:

Mary Sue, as this archetype became known, was at first any brilliant, beautiful young Starfleet officer who joined the Enterprise crew to be the center of attention, set everything right, make off with the main male canon character's heart (or several of them!), and/or die dramatically in someone's arms.

Now, that you've read this immense post your prize is to test your favorite character from X-men. If you have the comic knowledge, test your cannon and movie-verse versions. With some characters *coughStormCykecough*t: it may be diffucult because not to much information was given about them.

Don't worry this part is fast easy and fun!
Take Part One and Part Five of this test.
and (if you want a second opinion) or this one
Take all parts BUT High School and Your Character and You


Trust me when I say, you do NOT!!! want to have your character have a high score. That's very very VERY bad.

So, my last question is, who is the biggest baddest Sue/Stu and in your opinion or by definition why are they or why shouldn't they be a Sue?

 

[X-Maniac]

There ain't much debatin' goin' on here Goddess!

I think we covered most of it in the earlier threads about the Mary Sue syndrome.

Wolverine became a Marty Stu and Jean was a Mary Sue. Storm was a bit of an Anti-Sue, don't you think?

Hopefully, no Wolverine in an X4. He can be off doing something else.

 

[Goddessreicho]

Lol, ok ok you got me.

BUT

I want to see some character defenders in here. Someone better post about why So-n-So isn't a Mary Sue and why, so we can debate it. Duh silly.

Oh and yes, movie-verse is an anti-Sue, so is Cyke. But not because of good writing. It's because their story is missing. So their anti-Sue status is there by default. Is that... a good thing?

 

[Hunter Rider]

Kate from LOST is pretty complex and i wouldn't say many of the characters in Heroes fit the description you gave of the "anti Sue"

 

[flavio_lebeau]

This denomination is quite...subjective.

I'd say X3 made Rogue completely anti-Sue. Dumb, whiny, even more boring, unsexy, morally diseased, just to name a few. You know, in her case, I think sometimes it's good to be a border-line Sue. At least she had some good aspects about her in the previous movies, which didn't happen in X3...it's like Rogue was written to be despised by the audience throughtout the movie. If the intention was to make us feel sorry for her, or at least understand her, I think they reached the exact opposite. She was so weak that you just wish she killed herself and made the world some good by this act.

 

[Goddessreicho]

Kate from LOST is pretty complex and i wouldn't say many of the characters in Heroes fit the description you gave of the "anti Sue"

Each and every character, who's a protagonist, has changed and grown as a character from the first half of the season. Matt is no longer a spineless yessir. Nikki has learned to comprise with Jessica. Mohinder has come to terms with his father, his reasearch, and his sister. DL has learned to take responsibility for Micah and Nikki. Claire is no longer niave and in denial. Even her father has grown a backbone. All of this is the epitome of an anti-Sue. To give a character a personality flaw and to have them change or confront it as the story moves on is what an anti-sue does. That's what all the Heroes characters have done. That's what makes it a great show. It focuses on characters and plots, the superpowers nearly a sublot.

It's the road the X-men should have taken, if a writer actually WROTE something seven years ago.

Kate is a Mary-Sue. Here's why:

Mary Sue...err KATE, was at first any brilliant, beautiful young Starfleet...LOSTIE who joined the Enterprise crew...um became LOST to be the center of attention, set everything right, make off with the main male canon character's heart (or several of them!), and/or die dramatically in someone's arms.

So far 3 outta 4 aint bad. No character should ever do that all of that in a story. This is a no-effort, stereotypical, square, predictable, boring outline that's been sold over and over again. To spice it up writers will generally put Mary-Sue in a love triangle. That's why we see it over and over again. Because there's nothing wrong with a Sue, that's why her/his only source of conflict is choosing a love intrest. ARRRRG!

 

[Goddessreicho]

This denomination is quite...subjective.

I'd say X3 made Rogue completely anti-Sue. Dumb, whiny, even more boring, unsexy, morally diseased, just to name a few. You know, in her case, I think sometimes it's good to be a border-line Sue. At least she had some good aspects about her in the previous movies, which didn't happen in X3...it's like Rogue was written to be despised by the audience throughtout the movie. If the intention was to make us feel sorry for her, or at least understand her, I think they reached the exact opposite. She was so weak that you just wish she killed herself and made the world some good by this act.

I have to agree with alot of what your saying.

Rogue in X1 when from Mary Sue (beautiful, young, shy, naive, aloof, mysterious, girl) accidentally and luckily finds herself with Marty Stu, who takes her to magical fairy land where everyone loves her. Ironically enough this is where Rogue transforms into anti-Sue. She learns about her powers, herself, and her own bravery that she didn't know she had. Unfortunately the end battle kinda completed Rogue's Sue'ism by "killing" her, and having Marty save her.

Again because "Lord Singer" (thanks Bill) identified most with Rogue and her feelings of isolation and being an outcast amongst outcast, this makes Rogue a Sue in X1.

X2 is Rogue's time of anti-sue'ism. X3 kinda is in its own realm.

So, yea, Rogue is a great borderline Sue. Which is actually the most tolerable kind.

 

[javphonic]

There ain't much debatin' goin' on here Goddess!

I think we covered most of it in the earlier threads about the Mary Sue syndrome.

Wolverine became a Marty Stu and Jean was a Mary Sue. Storm was a bit of an Anti-Sue, don't you think?

Hopefully, no Wolverine in an X4. He can be off doing something else.

Well stated I totally agree with your Mary/Marty Sue categorizations

 

[Agent Muños]

I don't really get what a Sue is and I don't think Kate from Lost is one as well.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Goddess, Goddess... Tsk tsk tsk... I'm disappointed you forgot one of the most annoying traits of Mary Sue's/Marty Stu's... Which of course is whether or not other characters have the right to dislike them and not come off as "bad guys". t:

Look at movieverse Wolvie. He's basically an obnoxious d**k and yet almost everyone likes him or looks up to him. Guess what happen to the one good guy and the bad guys that don't??

Movie... bah, every universe's Jean jerks two good guys around and yet everyone else looks the other way. Or worse yet, LAUGH about it.

Anyway, those making it the cut in the flicks: Jean and Wolvie first and foremost. Then the kids with an actual subplot, namely Bobby, Kitty and Rogue. The later three wouldn't get that much points in a Mary Sue test, but the fact is, they're written so that the audience will like/sympathize with them.

And yes, you can assume I bloody hate the *premise* of Kitty Pride in any universe. t:

 

[javon]

Wait...I didn't just see Darth in a thread with the word "Sue in it" without mentioning Storm in his posts.... J/K

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Wait...I didn't just see Darth in a thread with the word "Sue in it" without mentioning Storm in his posts.... J/K

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

I play fair, sweetie. Movieverse ain't the comics. t:

 

[flavio_lebeau]

Goddess, Goddess... Tsk tsk tsk... I'm disappointed you forgot one of the most annoying traits of Mary Sue's/Marty Stu's... Which of course is whether or not other characters have the right to dislike them and not come off as "bad guys". t:

Look at movieverse Wolvie. He's basically an obnoxious d**k and yet almost everyone likes him or looks up to him. Guess what happen to the one good guy and the bad guys that don't??

Movie... bah, every universe's Jean jerks two good guys around and yet everyone else looks the other way. Or worse yet, LAUGH about it.

Anyway, those making it the cut in the flicks: Jean and Wolvie first and foremost. Then the kids with an actual subplot, namely Bobby, Kitty and Rogue. The later three wouldn't get that much points in a Mary Sue test, but the fact is, they're written so that the audience will like/sympathize with them.

And yes, you can assume I bloody hate the *premise* of Kitty Pride in any universe. t:

erm, how is Rogue written so that the audience likes her? Isn't it the opposite? I sure don't get it.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

erm, how is Rogue written so that the audience likes her? Isn't it the opposite? I sure don't get it.

Where were you during X1 and X2???

1 - I can't touch woe is me!!!
2 - Rather than throw annoying hissy fits like my comic book counterpart, I'm just moping and being miserable.
3 - Hell, she even had the whole 'that b**ch stole my man!!!' thingy going on in X3.

Now, I never said it *worked* or that it was well thought-out. Still, the intention was clearly there.

 

[flavio_lebeau]

Where were you during X1 and X2???

1 - I can't touch woe is me!!!
2 - Rather than throw annoying hissy fits like my comic book counterpart, I'm just moping and being miserable.
3 - Hell, she even had the whole 'that b**ch stole my man!!!' thingy going on in X3.

Now, I never said it *worked* or that it was well thought-out. Still, the intention was clearly there.

Maybe the intention. And we're disccussing X3 here, right? She is, like Pyro says, Pathetic in X3. Most people don't even feel pity for her, and I think this was the intention.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Maybe the intention. And we're disccussing X3 here, right?

Dunno. Goddess said X3 took it to an extreme. Don't recall anything about X3 exclusive characterization.

Wouldn't it make more sense to speak of it - Mary Sue or not - as a whole anyway???

 

[flavio_lebeau]

Dunno. Goddess said X3 took it to an extreme. Don't recall anything about X3 exclusive characterization.

Wouldn't it make more sense to speak of it - Mary Sue or not - as a whole anyway???

I don't know too...but I thought these debates were regarding always X3. We didn't talk about the Phoenix in X2...although in this case it does make sense to discuss all the movies. Oh well...

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Kate from LOST is pretty complex

Complexity isn't an automatic exemption. And Kate totally is a Mary Sue. t:

and i wouldn't say many of the characters in Heroes fit the description you gave of the "anti Sue"

Semi-agree with ya on this one. Half of them are too annoyingly likeable IMO. Oh well.

 

[Jennifer Walters]

This is the one thing I greatly dislike about Goddess and Darth. Otherwise they are cool.

It seems like no one is save from this Mary Sue/Marty Stu crap they've brought around. A character is well liked? SO A SUE.

A character is well developed? SO A SUE?

The character does anything and they are a sue. I assume characters should just sit still and not do anything with these two.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Now, now, you're just being melodramatic. t:

Refusing to aknowledge the notion of Mary Sue/Marty Stu isn't silly.

Allow me to demonstrate:

Movieverse Wolvie: Marty Stu.
Comicverse Wolvie when portrayed as an obnoxious pissed off samourai: Nope. Refer to Whedon's current's take on the character.
Comicverse Wolvie when portrayed as this noble tragic warrior figure with a heart of gold and a protector complex whatever: ): Marty Stu. Mmm, should've just put that one with Movieverse, eh??

Movieverse Storm: Nope. As if.
Comicverse old school pre somewhere between UXM 150-200 (I'd pick the Callisto fight, but whatever): Nope.
Comicverse ever since and especially when CC writes her: Mary Sue. About as bad as Jean and Sue Storm in about every universe.

And just for the record, wasn't it obvious we were talking about the *really* annoying ones??? t:

 

[Jennifer Walters]

Your list continues to grow...and I'm sorry no just no way is Rogue/Kate/Sue Storm a Mary Sue.

Everyone who does something that potential develops them further as a character becomes a Sue with you guys. And it's very annoying. If it was up to you two characters would stay in the same place all the time. They wouldn't reach new heights or boundaries.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Your list continues to grow...and I'm sorry no just no way...

Rogue

All I said was that movieverse Rogue had the sympathy thing going on for her, which is a sub-genre of the Mary Sue family. Even worse in the comics since basically no one even calls her on her tantrums because her life sucks so bad, but this isn't about her comic book persona.

Her sole purpose in X1/X2 was for us to feel sorry for her and then cheer her on as she "stepped up" and partly overcome the suckiness of her existence. That, and anyone not liking her or feeling sorry for her would come off as an a$$hole. Totally Mary Sueish.

Kate/Sue Storm.

Come on. t:

 

[Jennifer Walters]

You come on and grow up..in the rules of a Mary Sue/Marty Sue. ALMOST any character is a Sue.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

*SIGH* We KNOW that.

Our point is that some do so IMMENSELY MORE than others. t:

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Double post. Server trouble. Hungh.