Endgame Timeline

[Flash525]

Time travel is always slightly confusing, and each fictional media surrounding it has a different take on how it works, what the consequences are etc

In short though, rewatching Endgame, and during that speech between the Ancient One and Banner, there’s talk of putting the stones back to the moments they were taken, thus not endangering the timeline.

That much all makes sense, and it’s possible that all the interactions we saw between Thor and Frigga, Tony and Howard, Steve and ... Steve never actually happened from the past perspective, except the events that took place to allow Loki to escape, however...

In the (now) past, Thanos doesn’t arrive on Earth to initiate his attack, doesn’t collect the stones, and doesn’t get to snap his fingers, so ... does that timeline still exist (in the multiverse of madness), was it erased, or did it somehow just merge with the new future at the point of difference?

I’m making sense, right?

 

[Bayne]

Time travel is always slightly confusing, and each fictional media surrounding it has a different take on how it works, what the consequences are etc

In short though, rewatching Endgame, and during that speech between the Ancient One and Banner, there’s talk of putting the stones back to the moments they were taken, thus not endangering the timeline.

That much all makes sense, and it’s possible that all the interactions we saw between Thor and Frigga, Tony and Howard, Steve and ... Steve never actually happened from the past perspective, except the events that took place to allow Loki to escape, however...

In the (now) past, Thanos doesn’t arrive on Earth to initiate his attack, doesn’t collect the stones, and doesn’t get to snap his fingers, so ... does that timeline still exist (in the multiverse of madness), was it erased, or did it somehow just merge with the new future at the point of difference?

I’m making sense, right?

The attack on Earth still happened. The Snap and the Blip still happened. Taking the stones from the past created alternate timelines where history was different. The Thanos who dies at the end of the movie came from one of those alternate timelines. Captain America then tries to undo the creation of those alternate timelines by returning everything to the moment it was taken, with the intent being that those timelines 'never existed', except for the brief period of time that they clearly existed.

This is one of the big inconsistencies of the movie because there really is no particular reason why returning the stones should even be so important. The Ancient One makes an impassioned plea for the Time Stone, but her reasoning is that the stone is her greatest weapon against evil, not that there's in any way anything wrong with alternate timelines existing and having no stone. This reasoning clearly doesn't apply to anything other than the Time Stone (well, maybe Mjolnir, too).

The other issue with it being that if trying to change the past causes alternate timelines instead, then the alternate timelines were all created before the stones were taken meaning returning the stones can't unmake them. Yet the Ancient One strongly implies that it is the act of removing a stone which creates a new timeline, which would fit the 'trim the branches' narrative, yet is a lot harder to square with facts like Thanos already learning about Nebula's future before the stone is taken, Quill getting knocked out, Pierce trying to confiscate Loki, etc.

 

[Flash525]

The attack on Earth still happened. The Snap and the Blip still happened. Taking the stones from the past created alternate timelines where history was different. The Thanos who dies at the end of the movie came from one of those alternate timelines. Captain America then tries to undo the creation of those alternate timelines by returning everything to the moment it was taken, with the intent being that those timelines 'never existed', except for the brief period of time that they clearly existed.

But the snap and the attack on Earth didn't happen from the timeline that they took the stones from? It couldn't have, because Thanos came from that timeline into the present one. Right?

If it is also true that alternate timelines were created as a result of meddling with time, then there are still existing timelines where the snap happened, and wasn't undone, presumably? Or if not that, then there are (or were) alternate timelines where Thanos simply didn't attack Earth, because he jumped to the future to try and do it, thus somewhere, within the multiverse, Vision lives, and not a single life was lost.

 

[Stormborn]

By my count the main MCU Avengers created five new timelines with their time heist.

Alternate Timeline 1:

• The local Star Lord was KO'd by War Machine and the local Gamora moved to another timeline. The Guardians of the Galaxy are never formed.
• Main MCU Cap returns the power stone but there's a big risk Ronan gets hold of it and destroys Xandar.
• The local Ego is out there but hopefully never learns about/finds Quill.
• The local Red Skull is well aware of the time travel shenanigans. Main MCU Cap eventually returns the Soul Stone to him but it's incredibly awkward and Black Widow stays dead.
• On the bright side, the local version of Thanos and his army switched timelines and never return. Without Thanos, Loki/Heimdall/Vision get to live and the snap never happens.

Alternate Timeline 2:

• Loki escaped with the space stone.
• The local version of Cap fought himself but presumes it was Loki.
• The main MCU Cap pretended to be loyal to Hydra. Hydra obviously become suspicious of the local Cap and this screws up the events of Winter Soldier.
• Main timeline Cap returns the time stone to the Ancient One no problem because she's well aware of all the time travel shenanigans.
• Main MCU Cap returns the mind stone to SHIELD but he can't put it back inside the sceptre which could mess with the creation of Scarlet Witch/Quicksilver/Ultron/Vision.

Alternate Timeline 3:

• Rocket removed the reality stone/aether from inside Jane Foster, alerting nearby guards.
• Fat Thor borrows Mjolnir.
• Freya is well aware of the time travel shenanigans.
• Main timeline Cap brings back Mjolnir but probably can't/doesn't put the reality stone back inside Jane Foster. This might change the events of Dark World.

Alternate Timeline 4:

• Some of Hank Pym's particles were stolen. He'll probably be freaked out about how the thief will use them.
• Howard Stark got some fatherhood advice from a stranger. He later suspects that "Tony Potts" stole the the pym particles but is unable to track him down.
  
• Main timeline Cap takes and returns the space stone without anyone noticing.

Alternate Timeline 5:

• Main MCU Cap goes back to the 1940s and lives a full life with Peggy Carter.
• He probably uses his knowledge of the future to defeat Hydra early and rescue Bucky. This prevents the assassination of the Starks (and JFK).
• Sooner or later, the local version of Cap is defrosted and it's probably really awkward.
• Main MCU Cap becomes an old man and at some point he travels back to his original timeline to give Sam Wilson a new vibranium shield.

 

[Flash525]

I always assumed that when Rogers decided to stay in the past, he'd have taken himself out of the picture, and explained to Peggy who he was and how he got there, not interacting with any big events or making changes to the timeline that he knows would effect the future. If he returned the stone to the sceptre before he encountered himself, then he wouldn't have fought himself.

It could be argued that Star Lord was always knocked out, it just wasn't made aware to us.

The only true obstacles would presumably be how Rogers returns the Soul Stone (cause a soul for a soul - so what does he get in return?) and the fact that Loki escaped with the Tesseract, which obviously didn't happen in the prime timeline, though will no doubt feature into his Disney show.

 

[Stormborn]

I always assumed that when Rogers decided to stay in the past, he'd have taken himself out of the picture, and explained to Peggy who he was and how he got there, not interacting with any big events or making changes to the timeline that he knows would effect the future.

That would be really out of character for Cap. He wants to live a full life with Peggy and he won't stand by and allow Hydra to infiltrate SHIELD and use Bucky as a brainwashed assassin for decades.

And since it's an alternate timeline, he can change it without affecting the main MCU.

It could be argued that Star Lord was always knocked out, it just wasn't made aware to us.

Nah, that doesn't seem to be how MCU time travel works. It's a lot messier than that.

There's an original timeline and then there's the alternate timeline created by the Avengers travelling back and KOing Star Lord, sacrificing Widow for the soul stone and getting caught by Thanos who then follows them back to 2023.

Cap can put the power stone/soul stone back moments after they were taken but that won't make it so Star Lord was never KO'd, erase Red Skull's memory of the time travellers he met or bring back Thanos and his army.

If he returned the stone to the sceptre before he encountered himself, then he wouldn't have fought himself........Loki escaped with the Tesseract, which obviously didn't happen in the prime timeline, though will no doubt feature into his Disney show.

Again, Cap can return the stones to moments after they were taken but that's it. He can't change that he fought himself, he can't undo what he said to Rumlow and the Hydra agents, he change that Loki escaped and he can't change that the mind stone isn't inside the sceptre any more.

It's an alternate timeline now with Loki on the run and Hydra suspicious that Captain America's on to them.

 

[Flash525]

That would be really out of character for Cap. He wants to live a full life with Peggy and he won't stand by and allow Hydra to infiltrate SHIELD and use Bucky as a brainwashed assassin for decades. And since it's an alternate timeline, he can change it without affecting the main MCU.

But if it's an alternate timeline, he shouldn't have been there, sitting on that log at the end of Endgame, because all the events that led to that scene would've happened differently.

There's an original timeline and then there's the alternate timeline created by the Avengers travelling back and KOing Star Lord, sacrificing Widow for the soul stone and getting caught by Thanos who then follows them back to 2023.

Cap can put the power stone/soul stone back moments after they were taken but that won't make it so Star Lord was never KO'd, erase Red Skull's memory of the time travellers he met or bring back Thanos and his army.

Again, Cap can return the stones to moments after they were taken but that's it. He can't change that he fought himself, he can't undo what he said to Rumlow and the Hydra agents, he change that Loki escaped and he can't change that the mind stone isn't inside the sceptre any more.

So we've got two distinct timelines is what you're saying?

Well that at least makes sense, but if there's two timelines, then presumably the Loki show isn't going to be in the same timeline as the other shows (as the other shows will all be post Endgame, whereas the Loki show would be post Avengers?

In this new timeline (presumably, the one Loki now exists in), there's a good chance that Korath retrieves the Power Stone, and not Star Lord? Yet in this new timeline, Thanos doesn't exist in it (because he came to the future from it) so from the perspective of that timeline, with the stones having been re-homed, there's no Thanos threat?

 

[DocLathropBrown]

That would be really out of character for Cap. He wants to live a full life with Peggy and he won't stand by and allow Hydra to infiltrate SHIELD and use Bucky as a brainwashed assassin for decades.

And since it's an alternate timeline, he can change it without affecting the main MCU.

He could, but he would jeopardize the events of this new timeline he's created. Were he to alter the events, yes, he might prematurely defeat Hydra/save Bucky/etc, but say in trying, he fails? Things would be worse-off. Given that a version of him is still frozen in the ice, destined to unthaw one day, and all the events of his own timeline are still on-track to happen, in reality, it's safer and more reliable to let those things work out the way they did in his prime timeline. Even if he liberates Bucky and stops Hydra, that might cause a domino effect that leads to events playing out differently and cause THIS timeline's Avengers to be unable to stop Loki in 2012, or Ultron in 2015, or Thanos after the snap, etc...

Steve just let that timeline play out the way it's supposed to, knowing everything would work out. Besides, he served his time. Going back with Peggy was retirement.

It would be out of character for comics Cap, simply because comics Cap will never be given a chance to actually retire--this is the issue causes by continuous publication, whereas in another medium, sometimes the story must change to allow for an actual conclusion. In the MCU, if Steve didn't consciously choose to retire and walk away from it all, yeah, there would always be another fight... and given that Cap isn't the only hero there is in the world, I have zero problem with him leaving the defense of the future in the hands of the dozens of other superheroes around. I think Steve wouldn't have even entertained the idea of retiring until he saw that alliance of the galaxy's heroes come through to support them in the fight against Thanos.

Like Tony, Steve could rest. They (the world) were going to be okay.

That said, I do take some issue with how the film does contradict its own logic (via incorrect terminology). By the rules of logic it sets up early-on, then Steve returning the stones doesn't "clip the branches," since events happened in the getting of the stones that can't be undone ("Hail Hydra," Loki escaping, etc). Returning the stones just means those respective universes can still have Infinity War play out (except for 2014-A, Thanos is gone from that timeline). In the case of 2012-A, having the Time Stone means Dormammu can be defeated (and I like to think that's why the Ancient One was objecting), allowing them to have a future.

But those timelines are still there. The branches can't be undone--but returning the stones allows those timelines to go back to running (more or less) how they would have, with additional wrinkles.

 

[Stormborn]

But if it's an alternate timeline, he shouldn't have been there, sitting on that log at the end of Endgame, because all the events that led to that scene would've happened differently.

We know Cap grew old in an alternate timeline and then returned to the main timeline.

Firstly, because that's how MCU time travel works. Every time you go back in time and change something you create an alternate timeline, while the present you came from is unaffected.

Also the Russos have said so:
The Russo Brothers Clarify Captain America’s Avengers: Endgame Conclusion

Well that at least makes sense, but if there's two timelines, then presumably the Loki show isn't going to be in the same timeline as the other shows (as the other shows will all be post Endgame, whereas the Loki show would be post Avengers?

In this new timeline (presumably, the one Loki now exists in), there's a good chance that Korath retrieves the Power Stone, and not Star Lord? Yet in this new timeline, Thanos doesn't exist in it (because he came to the future from it) so from the perspective of that timeline, with the stones having been re-homed, there's no Thanos threat?

No, the Avengers created multiple new alternate timelines, not just one.

By visiting 2012, Cap/Iron Man/Hulk/Ant Man created a timeline where Loki escapes, Hydra are suspicious of Cap and the mind stone is no longer inside the sceptre.

By visiting 2014, Nebula/Hawkeye/Widow/War Machine created an alternate timeline where the Guardians of the Galaxy never exist, Thanos and his army disappear and Ronan probably destroys Xandar with the power stone.

He could, but he would jeopardize the events of this new timeline he's created. Were he to alter the events, yes, he might prematurely defeat Hydra/save Bucky/etc, but say in trying, he fails? Things would be worse-off. Given that a version of him is still frozen in the ice, destined to unthaw one day, and all the events of his own timeline are still on-track to happen, in reality, it's safer and more reliable to let those things work out the way they did in his prime timeline. Even if he liberates Bucky and stops Hydra, that might cause a domino effect that leads to events playing out differently and cause THIS timeline's Avengers to be unable to stop Loki in 2012, or Ultron in 2015, or Thanos after the snap, etc...

Steve just let that timeline play out the way it's supposed to, knowing everything would work out. Besides, he served his time. Going back with Peggy was retirement.

There's no canon on this either way so it's all just speculation about what Steve would do if he landed in the 1940s with all his knowledge from 2023.

Personally I think he'd try to rescue Bucky and take down Hydra ASAP rather than leaving his best friend to spend decades as a brainwashed assassin and standing by while the Starks and various others were assassinated.

He and Peggy would have decades to get the earth ready for Loki, prevent the creation of Ultron and prevent the snap from ever happening.

That said, I do take some issue with how the film does contradict its own logic (via incorrect terminology). By the rules of logic it sets up early-on, then Steve returning the stones doesn't "clip the branches," since events happened in the getting of the stones that can't be undone ("Hail Hydra," Loki escaping, etc). Returning the stones just means those respective universes can still have Infinity War play out (except for 2014-A, Thanos is gone from that timeline). In the case of 2012-A, having the Time Stone means Dormammu can be defeated (and I like to think that's why the Ancient One was objecting), allowing them to have a future.

But those timelines are still there. The branches can't be undone--but returning the stones allows those timelines to go back to running (more or less) how they would have, with additional wrinkles.

Yeah, pretty much. Endgame's version of time travel is extremely messy. It's one of the reasons I didn't enjoy it as much as previous Avengers films.

 

[Bayne]

But the snap and the attack on Earth didn't happen from the timeline that they took the stones from? It couldn't have, because Thanos came from that timeline into the present one. Right?

If it is also true that alternate timelines were created as a result of meddling with time, then there are still existing timelines where the snap happened, and wasn't undone, presumably? Or if not that, then there are (or were) alternate timelines where Thanos simply didn't attack Earth, because he jumped to the future to try and do it, thus somewhere, within the multiverse, Vision lives, and not a single life was lost.

According to what the movie is trying to say, the timelines they took the stones from ceased to exist when they returned the stones. There is nothing there to have any history anymore.

Alternate Timeline 2:

• Loki escaped with the space stone.
• The local version of Cap fought himself but presumes it was Loki.
• The main MCU Cap pretended to be loyal to Hydra. Hydra obviously become suspicious of the local Cap and this screws up the events of Winter Soldier.
• Main timeline Cap returns the time stone to the Ancient One no problem because she's well aware of all the time travel shenanigans.
• Main MCU Cap returns the mind stone to SHIELD but he can't put it back inside the sceptre which could mess with the creation of Scarlet Witch/Quicksilver/Ultron/Vision.

Hydra was always suspicious of Cap and was also present for Loki's tricks. MCU Cap's mind games would automatically be blamed on Loki. That aspect wouldn't change anything about WS.

That would be really out of character for Cap. He wants to live a full life with Peggy and he won't stand by and allow Hydra to infiltrate SHIELD and use Bucky as a brainwashed assassin for decades.

And since it's an alternate timeline, he can change it without affecting the main MCU.


Nah, that doesn't seem to be how MCU time travel works. It's a lot messier than that.

There's an original timeline and then there's the alternate timeline created by the Avengers travelling back and KOing Star Lord, sacrificing Widow for the soul stone and getting caught by Thanos who then follows them back to 2023.

Cap can put the power stone/soul stone back moments after they were taken but that won't make it so Star Lord was never KO'd, erase Red Skull's memory of the time travellers he met or bring back Thanos and his army.



Again, Cap can return the stones to moments after they were taken but that's it. He can't change that he fought himself, he can't undo what he said to Rumlow and the Hydra agents, he change that Loki escaped and he can't change that the mind stone isn't inside the sceptre any more.

It's an alternate timeline now with Loki on the run and Hydra suspicious that Captain America's on to them.

The movie just isn't consistent.

The writers wanted Cap to be in his own past, which obviously means just being in the past (or accidentally changing things) can't create an alternate universe. This is why the Ancient One says you have to remove a time stone to create an alternate universe and why the movie says they have to return them all to undo the alternate timelines. But for that to be true you have to accept that Quill always got knocked out, Thanos always intercepted weird future Nebula brainwaves and Loki always escaped (or invent a fictional justification, like removing the stone reverberates to create a new timeline shortly before you removed it).

The directors thought the opposite, that Cap went to live in an alternate universe because any action in the past creates an alternate universe. But for that, you have to accept that the entire 'trim the branches' storyline makes no sense because there's no good reason to trim the branches and returning the stones won't actually trim anything anyway.

There's nothing for it but to pick your preference and insert your own made-up explanation, or else wait for another MCU project to further elaborate on time travel/alternate universes so you can eliminate the option that's most out of synch with the rest.

 

[Flash525]

We know Cap grew old in an alternate timeline and then returned to the main timeline.

Firstly, because that's how MCU time travel works. Every time you go back in time and change something you create an alternate timeline, while the present you came from is unaffected.

Okay, so just to clarify (cause I may still not get it)...

Rogers goes back in time, meets Peggy, and lives in that timeline until he gets old, at which point he decides to travel back to the future to hand over his shield to Sam, before (presumably) returning to the new timeline...

By visiting 2012, Cap/Iron Man/Hulk/Ant Man created a timeline where Loki escapes, Hydra are suspicious of Cap and the mind stone is no longer inside the sceptre.

By visiting 2014, Nebula/Hawkeye/Widow/War Machine created an alternate timeline where the Guardians of the Galaxy never exist, Thanos and his army disappear and Ronan probably destroys Xandar with the power stone.

Why couldn't those two events happen in the same new timeline? They're locations apart, and set in different times. Whilst I'm sure it's possible that they'd happen each in their own unique timeline, would it not also be possible for them to happen in the same one?

According to what the movie is trying to say, the timelines they took the stones from ceased to exist when they returned the stones. There is nothing there to have any history anymore.

Except they can't not exist, because Steve lived in one of them.

 

[Bayne]

Except they can't not exist, because Steve lived in one of them.

He didn't live in a stone created alternate timeline regardless.

Also, as an aside what is in character for Steve is irrelevant. If he lived in an alternate timeline, anything could happen. If he didn't live in an alternate timeline, the movie is crystal clear that you physically *cannot change your past*. Therefore, in order for him to live in his own past for any significant period of time, it must be the case that just being there doesn't change anything even though it obviously should. In other words, if being in his own past is possible, it must be literally impossible for anything he does while there to lead to any changes (as long as he doesn't screw with an Infinity Stone because that leads to alternate timelines) because everything he does must have always been a part of his past. Any urge he has to go after Hydra and rescue Bucky will inevitably end up with Bucky back in Hydra hands somehow and some part of Hydra still hiding out in SHIELD, even if Steve achieves some sort of temporary success before running out of leads or being forced to deal with some other more immediate problem he never knew had existed.

 

[SirStrangefolk]

Okay, so just to clarify (cause I may still not get it)...

Rogers goes back in time, meets Peggy, and lives in that timeline until he gets old, at which point he decides to travel back to the future to hand over his shield to Sam

Yes. (Or alternatively, and this is my own idea which is probably not canonical, the cap we see at the end is a cap from *another* timeline where things played out pretty much the same. So our Cap would just live until he's old and give Sam the shield in his timeline, that way it makes sense how old cap didn't return to the platform like the others did before as that appeared to be a kind of anchor point.

before (presumably) returning to the new timeline...

If we go with this version I don't see why he would return. Peggy already died of old age at this time so presumably he'd grown old with her and there'd be nothing to go back to.

Why couldn't those two events happen in the same new timeline? They're locations apart, and set in different times. Whilst I'm sure it's possible that they'd happen each in their own unique timeline, would it not also be possible for them to happen in the same one?

Because everyone traveled back linearly from the same point in the main timeline. In order for both to happen in the same new timeline Nebula/Hawkeye/Widow/War Machine would have to somehow travel into the line that split off in 2012 by either somehow transversally moving from one timeline to another (basically the equivalent to dimension hopping) or first go back to 2012 and from there follow the newly created timeline split into the future to 2014. I don't see why either of those would happen rather than just going back into the past of their 2023 the easy way.

 

[Stormborn]

@Flash525 Maybe a video explanation will help:

The movie just isn't consistent.

The writers wanted Cap to be in his own past, which obviously means just being in the past (or accidentally changing things) can't create an alternate universe.........the directors thought the opposite, that Cap went to live in an alternate universe because any action in the past creates an alternate universe.

The Russos explanation that any changes to the past create an alternate timeline makes a lot more sense but yeah, the film could've been a lot clearer.

And you're right, Cap returning the stone ought to create even more timelines (some where he returns the stones, some where he doesn't) but that's never explained.

Hydra was always suspicious of Cap and was also present for Loki's tricks. MCU Cap's mind games would automatically be blamed on Loki. That aspect wouldn't change anything about WS.

Nah, they always saw him as an enemy but they were confident he had no idea that Hydra had survived and infiltrated SHIELD and didn't make a move against him before Winter Soldier.

But then in this timeline Cap visits, whispers "Hail Hydra" to Rumlow and that's going to freak them out. If they think it's possible Cap's on to them they'll move him straight to the top of their assassination list (ahead of Fury).

 

[Da-Scribe]

 

[Stormborn]

 

[Flash525]

@Flash525 Maybe a video explanation will help:

Simple yet effective video, but now we’ve got six timelines, only one of which the MCU follows, the others, presumably, we’ll never know about unless they’re touched upon in Doctor Strange 2.

 

[InCali]

My motto is "When time travel fries an egg, make a sandwich."

I think we should just ask the writers until they say....uhhhhh....I don't know.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

It's funny, because the film goes to great lengths to stop things for multiple scenes where they stop the action just to explain their time travel rationale and still a lot of people in the audience aren't clear and looking for some unifying theory to make sense of it all.

And honestly, I think the only HUGE mistake and the one that throws the biggest monkey wrench is how they chose to shoot the last moments with Steve/Bruce/Bucky/Sam on the time platform. I think more than anything the specifics of that causes all the confusion.

What if instead of Cap not coming back and then just showing up twenty feet away as an old man we had things play out the same with Bucky and Steve's convo and then Steve suits up and disappears from the platform with the stones and the hammer as was planned by the team. Steve is supposed to be retrieved immediately but there seems to be a problem. Bruce takes a moment to check the equipment and then suddenly... Cap is back on the platform in the time travel suit with his face covered up... And then Cap seems to almost collapse, going down to one knee. Sam and Bruce rush to him and help him back to his feet.

Sam: Easy Cap, we gotcha... You okay? You gave us a scare old man...


Cap then deactivates the helmet/mask and underneath is shows old man Steve and Bruce and Sam gasp/react... But not Bucky.

Sam: Cap... Steve... What happ...?

Steve: Sam... We need to talk. (Smiles)


From then on the dialog and general thrust is what we already got with the exception that Bucky gives Cap a suitcase/carry case and inside is the shield and we get a line telling us T'challa had repaired it.


Now suddenly things are explicit with less wiggle room. Cap was NOT living in the prime timeline all along he was living in an alternate created when he decided to live a full life in this version of 1945. The shield is a gift from Black Panther. Bucky was in on it the whole time.

We then still get the whole, "Well are you gonna tell me about her?" line but instead of old man Steve sitting by the lake it's old man Steve suited up getting ready to go back to the alternate timeline and Sam asks the question right before Steve makes the jump and Cap again say, "No... I don't think I will" he disappears and we get a line from the remaining crew wondering what he did and where he came from yadda yadda, same fade into 1945 Steve dancing with Peggy.


I mean... I get it. They went more for poetry over prose so to speak in the actual film. They wanted a more dramatic way to reveal all this that was more heart tugging and emotional. I mean what we got, dramatically works well... But at the sacrifice of clarity and being done in a way that a lot of audience members felt either muddied the waters as to the time travel explanation or totally undermined the conceptual idea of how it was supposed to work in the story that they had hammered home so often in the run time.

 

[Bayne]

It's funny, because the film goes to great lengths to stop things for multiple scenes where they stop the action just to explain their time travel rationale and still a lot of people in the audience aren't clear and looking for some unifying theory to make sense of it all.

And honestly, I think the only HUGE mistake and the one that throws the biggest monkey wrench is how they chose to shoot the last moments with Steve/Bruce/Bucky/Sam on the time platform. I think more than anything the specifics of that causes all the confusion.

What if instead of Cap not coming back and then just showing up twenty feet away as an old man we had things play out the same with Bucky and Steve's convo and then Steve suits up and disappears from the platform with the stones and the hammer as was planned by the team. Steve is supposed to be retrieved immediately but there seems to be a problem. Bruce takes a moment to check the equipment and then suddenly... Cap is back on the platform in the time travel suit with his face covered up... And then Cap seems to almost collapse, going down to one knee. Sam and Bruce rush to him and help him back to his feet.

Sam: Easy Cap, we gotcha... You okay? You gave us a scare old man...


Cap then deactivates the helmet/mask and underneath is shows old man Steve and Bruce and Sam gasp/react... But not Bucky.

Sam: Cap... Steve... What happ...?

Steve: Sam... We need to talk. (Smiles)


From then on the dialog and general thrust is what we already got with the exception that Bucky gives Cap a suitcase/carry case and inside is the shield and we get a line telling us T'challa had repaired it.


Now suddenly things are explicit with less wiggle room. Cap was NOT living in the prime timeline all along he was living in an alternate created when he decided to live a full life in this version of 1945. The shield is a gift from Black Panther. Bucky was in on it the whole time.

We then still get the whole, "Well are you gonna tell me about her?" line but instead of old man Steve sitting by the lake it's old man Steve suited up getting ready to go back to the alternate timeline and Sam asks the question right before Steve makes the jump and Cap again say, "No... I don't think I will" he disappears and we get a line from the remaining crew wondering what he did and where he came from yadda yadda, same fade into 1945 Steve dancing with Peggy.


I mean... I get it. They went more for poetry over prose so to speak in the actual film. They wanted a more dramatic way to reveal all this that was more heart tugging and emotional. I mean what we got, dramatically works well... But at the sacrifice of clarity and being done in a way that a lot of audience members felt either muddied the waters as to the time travel explanation or totally undermined the conceptual idea of how it was supposed to work in the story that they had hammered home so often in the run time.

That would lean people more towards the alternate universe theory than now but it still wouldn't solve the problem of why and how he's going to return all the these things and 'trim the branches' in the first place. If anything you do in your past creates an alternate timeline then it's literally impossible to trim the branches at all so other than keeping Hulk's promise to return the time stone, what's the point? It would just make that scene an even more questionable tacked on concept which would clearly only exist to allow Cap to go live in an alternate universe.

 

[Zarex]

I'm hoping the Loki series will finally clear up this mess. With the end result being (I hope) that our time traveling heroes created zero alternative timelines. Because the Time Variance Authority, working under the auspices of an extraordinarily powerful cosmic entity, trimmed off those time branches before any new realities came into being.

So when Thanos and his minions were dusted - in effect, removed from the timeline - he was deposited back into 2014 alongside a version of Gamora and a resurrected Nebula with no knowledge of his time spent in 2023. The space stone and Loki are put back at the exact moment they disappeared, as are the scepter, Mjolnir, Jane's Aether juice, the Eye of Agamatto, the Power stone and the Soul stone (AWKWARD!). Steve, having been given a stern warning from a TVA agent, lives a quiet life in the shadows. He lives a good life, but without all the punching.

 

[ThorMan]

That would be really out of character for Cap. He wants to live a full life with Peggy and he won't stand by and allow Hydra to infiltrate SHIELD and use Bucky as a brainwashed assassin for decades.

And since it's an alternate timeline, he can change it without affecting the main MCU.


Nah, that doesn't seem to be how MCU time travel works. It's a lot messier than that.

There's an original timeline and then there's the alternate timeline created by the Avengers travelling back and KOing Star Lord, sacrificing Widow for the soul stone and getting caught by Thanos who then follows them back to 2023.

Cap can put the power stone/soul stone back moments after they were taken but that won't make it so Star Lord was never KO'd, erase Red Skull's memory of the time travellers he met or bring back Thanos and his army.



Again, Cap can return the stones to moments after they were taken but that's it. He can't change that he fought himself, he can't undo what he said to Rumlow and the Hydra agents, he change that Loki escaped and he can't change that the mind stone isn't inside the sceptre any more.

It's an alternate timeline now with Loki on the run and Hydra suspicious that Captain America's on to them.

Time travel is always slightly confusing, and each fictional media surrounding it has a different take on how it works, what the consequences are etc

In short though, rewatching Endgame, and during that speech between the Ancient One and Banner, there’s talk of putting the stones back to the moments they were taken, thus not endangering the timeline.

That much all makes sense, and it’s possible that all the interactions we saw between Thor and Frigga, Tony and Howard, Steve and ... Steve never actually happened from the past perspective, except the events that took place to allow Loki to escape, however...

In the (now) past, Thanos doesn’t arrive on Earth to initiate his attack, doesn’t collect the stones, and doesn’t get to snap his fingers, so ... does that timeline still exist (in the multiverse of madness), was it erased, or did it somehow just merge with the new future at the point of difference?

I’m making sense, right?

 

[ThorMan]

I dont know how to ask a new question on this thread so I'm asking here. Hopefully you can answer. In the last battle in Endgame Capt America picks up Thor's hammer and gives Thanos quite a fight. Thanos goes ballistic! He shreads Caps shield. A shield made of VIBRANIUM. My question is what in the world or outer world was Thanos' two-sided weapon made of that could do that to Caps Shield?!! Adamantium?! C'mon really? I mean the Hulk not Thor or anything could put a dent in it and Thanos decimates it in his rage. Really? What's his weapon made of? Does Marvel have an explanation?

 

[Stormborn]

I dont know how to ask a new question on this thread so I'm asking here. Hopefully you can answer. In the last battle in Endgame Capt America picks up Thor's hammer and gives Thanos quite a fight. Thanos goes ballistic! He shreads Caps shield. A shield made of VIBRANIUM. My question is what in the world or outer world was Thanos' two-sided weapon made of that could do that to Caps Shield?!!

Someone asked Joe Russo this question a while ago.

His answer suggested that the sword could've been made by Eitri at Nidavellir, just like Mjolnir, Stormbreaker and the original Infinity Gauntlet. If so, presumably it was made of Uru.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Let's remember too, that there's no one for one recreation of the comics going on here for a variety of reasons. In the comics the shield is actually a mix of Vibranium and Proto-Adamantium with RIDICULOUS levels of invulnerability.

Things are just changed up in the MCU as compared to the comics.

Why did the shield break?

Because the writers and directors thought it would be a great and dramatic way to set up the return of the dusted heroes showing Cap heading off to confront a whole cosmic army by himself, with a shattered sheild as his only weapon. It also enhanced their villain, whom they had already established as a major physical threat on top of his master plan to gain the stones.