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Making Terry McGinnis be Bruce's son / clone cheapened Batman Beyond.

Timstuff

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This has always been kind of a pet peeve of mine. I am a big fan of Batman Beyond, but there were certain things they did with it later on that really annoyed me. I didn't like when they gave Terry a sidekick, or the contrived way they went about introducing her, and I felt that overall the second season of the show was pretty weak. However, what annoyed me was the epilogue they did for the show in Justice League.

On paper, I loved the idea of giving the show a proper send off after its somewhat abrupt ending (although I would have been pretty content with Return of the Joker as the series sendoff anyway), but what really annoyed me was that they decided that the series wouldn't be complete unless Terry had some kind of biological connection to Bruce Wayne, no matter how contrived or unnecessary it was.

I could go on and on about all the ridiculous logic loops and plot devices they had to pull out of their asses in order to make Bruce Wayne be Terry's biological father, but at the end of the day, no matter how good of an explanation they came up with, I was still going to hate the idea of Terry being Bruce's son, and it was completely contrary to the fundamental idea behind Batman. Batman is someone who suffered a horrible tragedy, and devoted his life to cleaning up the city that took his parents. When Bruce Wayne was too tired to keep going as Batman, the city started to rot again, and it it took Terry's father. Terry was another victim of the city who needed justice, and like Bruce Wayne he was willing to devote himself to finding justice and cleaning up Gotham. Batman Beyond showed that the idea of Batman was something that could outlive Bruce Wayne, because when Gotham gets rotten enough a new Batman will rise, like how a sick person will produce antibodies. If Gotham City has succumbed to crime and corruption, a Dark Knight will appear.

When you make Terry be Bruce's illegitimate son though, it changes everything. Now, it becomes clear that Batman is not the result of Gotham's decay, but because of something in Bruce's genes that inevitably causes him to be Batman. It's almost like the show was saying "only someone with Bruce's blood is capable of being Batman." Being Batman is something that Terry inherited as part of his genetic legacy, and that makes Terry seem pretty unremarkable when you compare him to the stranger who accidentally ended up on Bruce's doorstep, and ended up becoming the new Batman. They tried so hard to make it seem like it was Terry's destiny to become Batman, that they completely usurped the message of destiny in the original show episodes, where a chance encounter changed the future of Gotham for the better. It was as if the city saw Terry, and decided he was the right guy for the job. That was just enough of a sense of fate that it worked, and it was cool. However, by having the giant ass-pull concidnece that Terry also just so happens to be Bruce's son, they might as well have just had a Joseph Campbell zombie burst out of his grave and read Terry "The Hero's Journey."

It's like they just couldn't be content with the good thing that they'd started. They showed us a vision of the future, where the idea of Batman could be something that will never die. They took this great story about history repeating itself and a new generation rising up to the challenge, and dumbed it down to "this guy is Batman's son and his destiny is to follow in dear ol' dad's footsteps." I really wish that they hadn't decided to go this route. I still love Batman Beyond, but I'd prefer to remember it as what it was when I first saw it, not the cheapened version that it was morphed into years later.
 
This has always been kind of a pet peeve of mine. I am a big fan of Batman Beyond, but there were certain things they did with it later on that really annoyed me. I didn't like when they gave Terry a sidekick, or the contrived way they went about introducing her, and I felt that overall the second season of the show was pretty weak. However, what annoyed me was the epilogue they did for the show in Justice League.

On paper, I loved the idea of giving the show a proper send off after its somewhat abrupt ending (although I would have been pretty content with Return of the Joker as the series sendoff anyway), but what really annoyed me was that they decided that the series wouldn't be complete unless Terry had some kind of biological connection to Bruce Wayne, no matter how contrived or unnecessary it was.

I could go on and on about all the ridiculous logic loops and plot devices they had to pull out of their asses in order to make Bruce Wayne be Terry's biological father, but at the end of the day, no matter how good of an explanation they came up with, I was still going to hate the idea of Terry being Bruce's son, and it was completely contrary to the fundamental idea behind Batman. Batman is someone who suffered a horrible tragedy, and devoted his life to cleaning up the city that took his parents. When Bruce Wayne was too tired to keep going as Batman, the city started to rot again, and it it took Terry's father. Terry was another victim of the city who needed justice, and like Bruce Wayne he was willing to devote himself to finding justice and cleaning up Gotham. Batman Beyond showed that the idea of Batman was something that could outlive Bruce Wayne, because when Gotham gets rotten enough a new Batman will rise, like how a sick person will produce antibodies. If Gotham City has succumbed to crime and corruption, a Dark Knight will appear.

When you make Terry be Bruce's illegitimate son though, it changes everything. Now, it becomes clear that Batman is not the result of Gotham's decay, but because of something in Bruce's genes that inevitably causes him to be Batman. It's almost like the show was saying "only someone with Bruce's blood is capable of being Batman." Being Batman is something that Terry inherited as part of his genetic legacy, and that makes Terry seem pretty unremarkable when you compare him to the stranger who accidentally ended up on Bruce's doorstep, and ended up becoming the new Batman. They tried so hard to make it seem like it was Terry's destiny to become Batman, that they completely usurped the message of destiny in the original show episodes, where a chance encounter changed the future of Gotham for the better. It was as if the city saw Terry, and decided he was the right guy for the job. That was just enough of a sense of fate that it worked, and it was cool. However, by having the giant ass-pull concidnece that Terry also just so happens to be Bruce's son, they might as well have just had a Joseph Campbell zombie burst out of his grave and read Terry "The Hero's Journey."

It's like they just couldn't be content with the good thing that they'd started. They showed us a vision of the future, where the idea of Batman could be something that will never die. They took this great story about history repeating itself and a new generation rising up to the challenge, and dumbed it down to "this guy is Batman's son and his destiny is to follow in dear ol' dad's footsteps." I really wish that they hadn't decided to go this route. I still love Batman Beyond, but I'd prefer to remember it as what it was when I first saw it, not the cheapened version that it was morphed into years later.

Loved the bolded part of your post. :up:

I also really liked Batman Beyond. I thought it was a worthy follow-up to BTAS. You make some good points and I can see the logic behind your arguments. I also cringed every time Max took gradual steps towards becoming Batman's sidekick. I don't really have anything with the character, but I just don't think Batman needs a sidekick(never has and never will); that's why I don't like Robin either. That being said, not even after all this time, can I really make up my mind about the reveal in 'Epilogue'. While I appreciated that they gave the series an actual ending, I also thought it was a bit cheap to make Terry Bruce's son. It indeed kind of weakens his destiny. At the same time, I think I can see the sense behind it, although it's blurry. I don't know...I really liked the aspects of the episode(such as Terry coming into his own, fully accepting the Batman mantle), but him being Bruce's son did seem forced. Although you have to admit that final scene was absolutely kick-ass. I loved the reference to the very first episode of BTAS('On Leather Wings'), as well as the use of the futuristic Bat-theme(it's awesome right when that wicked guitar kicks in). :applaud

BTW, isn't there a thread about the Batman Beyond series somewhere around here? I know BTAS has one, but I haven't found one for Beyond.
 
It didn't really bug me that much. While it was interesting, I tend to create my own idea of what is and isn't canon.

To me it just strikes me as another idea in the Batman universe. Just like different ideas and interpretations in the comics and various TV series.

Like personally, and this may sound blasphemous, but I really hate The Killing Joke. When I think about The Joker's origin story, I always kind of look past that.

Something that happens later on in a series to me never really can cheapen it as long as the previous stuff was really great. It reminds me of how on the X-Files they had a cop-out ending with Mulder's sister. I hated that, but that didn't cheapen the series for me or any previous episodes dealing with his sister, it was just a crappy ending.

Don't let it hurt the series for you.
 
As someone said it, at least it gives an explanation as to how in the world Terry and his brother ended up with black hair when both their parents were red-heads :woot: . One impossible genetic mix-up explained, yeah!

When you make Terry be Bruce's illegitimate son though, it changes everything.

I have a problem with that. Bruce never ever met Terry's mother before meeting Terry himself. How could he be his 'illegitimate son', which is primarily a societal concept and indicates some kind of out-of-marriage sexual intercourse?

But seriously, it didn't ruin anything for me. Like Max said in the first appearance of Project Zeta, we have free will, and Terry used that right to choose to become Batman, his lineage had nothing to do with that or Bruce's decision to train him. It also doesn't erase the upbringing his parents gave him.
 
I'm not sure what upset me more: Terry being Bruce's son or not finding out what happened to Dick Grayson.

"Epilogue" was really disappointing.
 
I'm not sure what upset me more: Terry being Bruce's son or not finding out what happened to Dick Grayson.

"Epilogue" was really disappointing.

I was just watching Return of The Joker with the commentary on and I love it when they are talking about the fanbase online and how they will be mad they didn't explain what happened to Dick Grayson.
 
As someone said it, at least it gives an explanation as to how in the world Terry and his brother ended up with black hair when both their parents were red-heads :woot: . One impossible genetic mix-up explained, yeah!

Terry's mom has black eyebrows so I always just assumed that she dyed her hair red to be youthful looking, since red hair is associated with youth and is a popular color choice for women in their 40s.
 
Yeah i hated the twist and last episode, well made post Tim!
 
I"Epilogue" was really disappointing.
I think the most disappointing thing would have been if it really did end up being the close of JLU and the DCAU but as much as I might not like that Terry is Bruce's spawn, I still love the Batman/Ace story.
 
You should get rid of the spoilers in the title of this thread please.
 
Meh, I would think most fans knew this already.
 
I'm not sure what upset me more: Terry being Bruce's son or not finding out what happened to Dick Grayson.

"Epilogue" was really disappointing.

Without spoiling too much, I believe the Batman Beyond comics answer this question.
 
Without spoiling too much, I believe the Batman Beyond comics answer this question.

O-RLY.jpg
 
Ok. After doing relentless, tedious research (15 minutes on Google), I found what happened to Grayson in the new-ish Batman Beyond comic.

I didn't think it was possible but future Bruce is more of a dick than pre-crisis Superman.
 
You should get rid of the spoilers in the title of this thread please.
Spidey 2007... I'm trying to send you a PM but apparently you've exceeded your stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until you clear some space.

Thanks
 
Throwing my two cents here. I loved Epilogue. It is was the greatest sendoff they could give to the series. Making Bruce related biologically to Terry wasn't just to make a connection. I think it was to add a personall burden to Terry. In a way, he was shaping up to be Batman. Someone who wasn't him,it was Bruce persona. He went to think he wasn't able to change his fate, that everything he has done was chained to destiny.

The weight of being under someone elses shadow made him doubt of the sense of his life, it was something that was growing on him as he began to master his skills as Batman. He began to though that he didn't had control of his life and would have ended with the same fate as Bruce. Discovering that his life in a way was indeed being planned was the last straw.

The talking with Amanda Waller made him understood that even in the circumstances he was in, things that were outof his control, he could still have the power of make a choice and be his own man. (Mirroring the situation in which Bruce as a child couldn't do anything to prevent his parents death, but deciding to channel his own path to become Batman). He recognized himself not as a copy of Bruce (as the circumstances wanted it to be) but as his son, and while having some similarities, he had also great differences.

It was about deciding your own fate. At the end, it was Terry's choice. He was the owner of his destiny and he could make his life even better than Bruce's.
 

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