New Avengers vs. Old Avengers: Pros and Cons

[Willowhugger]

Well there's ironically a pro for both...

Continuity

Pro for New Avengers:The biggest thing that benefits the New Avengers is its accessibility. They're a brand new team with only a few vague connections between them and we get to see them start off. Yes, Tony and Captain America have a history but that's about it. It's very accessible for a new reader. All you need to know is that they're Earth's Mightiest Heroes and Marvel's premerie Superhero team.

Pro for Old Avengers: The reverse in that it's something that rewards the longtime fan.

 

[KevanG]

Con - If you're a spider-man fan, you get to watch Stark boss him around like he owns him

 

[Willowhugger]

Pro- Spidey gets treated like the brain he is by Tony.

If we ditched the manipulation and lies, we always have Vegas for Tony/Spidey ;-)

 

[Kotagg]

Pro for New Avengers - The makeup is more like Marvel, and less like DC. The Old Avengers seemed to be the key component of the Marvel Universe that was still epic-super-heroey. Luke Cage, Peter Parker, and Carol Danvers, among the others, bring the team to a real-person familiarity that many feel superheroes now need.

 

[villejo]

The con for New Avengers is they couldn't stay together past 20 issues.

 

[BrianWilly]

The Con for New Avengers is that they aren't Earth's Mightiest Heroes. Without the Sentry, the power level of the team is laughable. Not to mention their general incompetence; the Avengers are supposed to be the number one line of defense for the whole planet, and these people act like rank amateurs and and clueless newbies who have trouble fighting ninjas. The notion of this team protecting the world from alien armies and world-destroying supervillains is laughable.

Pro for New Avengers - The makeup is more like Marvel, and less like DC

That's silly. The old Avengers were a Marvel mainstay for decades and are just as significant to the structure of the company as Spider-Man or the X-Men. Maybe they weren't adhering to your notion of what Marvel should be like, but they were Marvel superheroes through and through. Next people will be claiming that the Fantastic Four don't feel like Marvel characters 'cause they don't stab or shoot people.

And considering that the New Avengers are just essentially a hodge-podge of the most popular Marvel characters put into one team, one of the biggest criticisms that they've received since day one is that the formula was basically a recycling of the Justice League. Just exactly which of the two is "more like DC" (such an odd statement, really...they're Marvel books about Marvel characters, how could they suddenly be like DC books?) is open to pretty extreme interpretation.

 

[Kotagg]

Maybe they weren't adhering to your notion of what Marvel should be like

Umm. Correct me here if I'm just going too far right here, but isn't that what opinions are?

In my opinion, the core of Marvel is that relateable, human superhero. DC, on the other hand, spawned from the god-like , epic hero whose only human qualities are only a front for the story that is trying to be told, as opposed to a centrifugal point.

 

[BrianWilly]

And I'm questioning that opinion because according to it, one of the biggest Marvel franchises shouldn't actually be a Marvel franchise.

The age-old fable that Marvel heroes are relatable while DC heroes are godlike is really one of those things that have long since crossed the line of being outdated. It's turned into a bland catchphrase for fans to thoughtlessly spout that only gives an irritating oversimplification of both companies. There are dozens upon dozens of street-level DC characters and there are just as many cosmic-level Marvel characters. There are tons of Marvel characters, several of them in the spotlight right this moment, who I can't possibly relate to at all and there are just as many DC characters who feel more humane than real people.

But that's a whole other topic and getting besides the point which is that you think the old Avengers didn't feel like a Marvel team, and the only way that could possibly makes sense is if you completely ignore the fact that the Avengers were iconic Marvel characters long before edgy, "realistic" characters like Wolverine or Punisher started showing up (Yeah, sure, Wolverine is realistic...) which, now that I think about it, does tend to resemble Marvel's recent editorial policy. In that sense, you're absolutely right: it completely feels like Marvel nowadays to forget about all but the last few months of history!

There has always been a niche at Marvel for classic superhero stories; the fact that you personally may not be a fan of that style doesn't all of a sudden make it any less a facet of the company. If either Marvel or DC only had just one kind of superhero and one genre of books, they'd be boring as grass. And when you apply that to New Avengers, it becomes even more of a farce; there were already street-level heroes around. There were already those styles of books. Essentially, New Avengers just gave us more of the same.

 

[Sentry2005]

also... once... New Avengers touched me while I was sleeping

 

[Willowhugger]

Well what I like about New Avengers is that it's a team up of my favorite characters and I'm not going to apologize for it. The Avengers became a dumping ground for characters whom never really had a place elsewhere. I have no problem with the Wasp, Ant Man, Hank Pym, or the other "iconics" but then they throw in Captain Britainess, Jack of Hearts, and goodness knows whom else in and it gets silly.

I like Spiderman, I like Luke Cage, I like Wolverine, and I like how they play off of Captain America and Iron Man. I also know that the New Avengers are just as much a dumping group for characters no one wants to read about in solo books as well. See the mighty adventures of RONIN!

Still, it worked for me.

There's only so many characters you can focus on and if nothing else, Avengers Wipe-Them-Out-All-of-Them did shake things up enough so you could devote enough time to acclimating Spiderman into the team. It's also, yes, a joke their power level. That's why the fight against the Wrecker WORKED.

(The Avengers have also never been Earth's Mightiest Heroes. Otherwise it would have been the Hulk, Silver Surfer, Doctor Strange, and Namor teaming up...wait, I believe I saw that team. It was called the Defenders )

 

[Harlekin]

There is a difference between not exactly being the Earth's Mightiest Heroes and almost losing a fight against a group of ninja's. I still don't see why they couldn't have just made this the New Champions and left the Avengers in their glory.

 

[Willowhugger]

There is a difference between not exactly being the Earth's Mightiest Heroes and almost losing a fight against a group of ninja's. I still don't see why they couldn't have just made this the New Champions and left the Avengers in their glory.

You missed the part where Tony Stark causally defeated the entire Ninjas with a single blast from his suit right? He didn't want to kill them all by knocking them over the side of his penthouse

And frankly, the Champions were a joke when they were made (oddly, it had great potential....Black Widow, Hercules, Iceman, and Archangel). This is one of the top selling books of Marvel for a reason.

Plus, these Avengers also defeated Magneto. So we can't say that they're THAT underpowered.

I will confess, Civil War ruined a good run. They had a good premise of going after all those escaped villains and they never got around to most of them because of it.

 

[gildea]

The Con for New Avengers is that they aren't Earth's Mightiest Heroes. Without the Sentry, the power level of the team is laughable.

But they do have the sentry?

also standard response about team consisting of cap, hawkeye, scarlet with and quicksilver.

 

[gildea]

in the spirit of the thread :

con -the continued online fan whining

pro -the continued high sales

 

[Sentry2005]

But they do have the sentry?

also standard response about team consisting of cap, hawkeye, scarlet with and quicksilver.

The point is Earth's Mightiest Heroes. It isn't neceresarily that they are godly in their powers, but that they are the best in their fields. Captain America is the best leader in the Marvel Universe, Iron Man one of the smartest (and definately the smartest when it comes to his armour), Thor was king of the Norse gods (the god among gods).. compare that with:

Spider-Man (good with the puns), Luke Cage (Bendis' man crush), Wolverine (Seriously, what does he bring to the team that Hawkeye and Captain America don't on their own?), Spider-Woman (oo, she's a spy.. wasn't Black Widow that exact same thing?), Sentry (A man with paranoid dillusions and unfortunate ability to summon an evil version of himself whenever he uses his powers).

The New Avengers are more like the JLA than the old Avengers ever were; They are the combination of Marvel Comics most popular characters. Even if it doesn't make sense for them to be there, they are. The original Avengers were formed to fight the foes that no single one of them could. The New Avengers are formed to fight the foes that pretty much anyone could, and has, but with Bendis' style of dialogue.

I buy New Avengers, and it is readable. It is light entertainment. But it's the sort of entertainment I associate with the X-Men. I don't buy New Avengers for what it is, I buy it for what it could be (as we've seen in glimpses with the Annual and parts of the Collective arc). I'm just glad my Avengers Assemble hardcovers came this week Now that is what the Avengers should be!

And if we go by current Marvel continuity, Cap, Hawkeye, Wanda and Quicksilver is infact one of the most powerful incarnations of the Avengers, simply due to Wanda.

 

[roach]

But they do have the sentry?

also standard response about team consisting of cap, hawkeye, scarlet with and quicksilver.

yeah but when that team was around the worst thing they had to deal with was the Circus of Doom. This team didnt stay that way either as a few issues later Hercules and Black Panther made it to the team.

 

[gildea]

double post

 

[gildea]

The point is Earth's Mightiest Heroes. It isn't neceresarily that they are godly in their powers, but that they are the best in their fields. Captain America is the best leader in the Marvel Universe, Iron Man one of the smartest (and definately the smartest when it comes to his armour), Thor was king of the Norse gods (the god among gods).. compare that with:

Thats your own interpretation. I just get tired of people bascially using a tagline to criticse a book despite previous weak incarnations. (when will we see people complain that FF isn't the worlds greatest comic magazine?)

And if we go by current Marvel continuity, Cap, Hawkeye, Wanda and Quicksilver is infact one of the most powerful incarnations of the Avengers, simply due to Wanda.

She wasn't that powerful at the time so that is a moot point. Can't just pick and choose from continuity like that, otherwise you could argue that the current line up is up there in terms of power by mumbling stuff about captain universe spidey.

 

[Sentry2005]

She wasn't that powerful at the time so that is a moot point. Can't just pick and choose from continuity like that, otherwise you could argue that the current line up is up there in terms of power by mumbling stuff about captain universe spidey.

Not really. It's a retcon dude. Meaning the idea is that Wanda's been playing with reality for ever. Thats the point.

Example: Wanda brings back Wonder Man. In Busiek's Avengers, it was because the two loved each other, in Bendis' Dissambled/HoM arcs, they pose the question of wether thats what really happened, OR if Wanda simply re-created him because she wanted to. And that story is like near on a decade old.

 

[hippy fascist]

The point is Earth's Mightiest Heroes. It isn't neceresarily that they are godly in their powers, but that they are the best in their fields. Captain America is the best leader in the Marvel Universe, Iron Man one of the smartest (and definately the smartest when it comes to his armour), Thor was king of the Norse gods (the god among gods).. compare that with:

Not wanting to nitpick or anything but surely that makes him Asgard's mightiest hero.

 

[gildea]

Not really. It's a retcon dude. Meaning the idea is that Wanda's been playing with reality for ever. Thats the point.

Example: Wanda brings back Wonder Man. In Busiek's Avengers, it was because the two loved each other, in Bendis' Dissambled/HoM arcs, they pose the question of wether thats what really happened, OR if Wanda simply re-created him because she wanted to. And that story is like near on a decade old.

Yeah but she had no control of the powers at that time. She couldn't for instance suddenly have chosen to wipe out the mutant population.

Power is nothing without control.

 

[gildea]

Not wanting to nitpick or anything but surely that makes him Asgard's mightiest hero.

HaHa!

thors always been an overachiever.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

He's like Asgard's Wolverine. He's the best there is at what he does... and what he does is beat the **** out of giants and trolls.

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Pro-The classic Avengers actually faced off against threats that would earn them th' title of Earth's mightiest heroes.

Con-The New Avengers fought Ninjas. And had trouble. NINJAS!

Pro-The Classic Avengers had a diverse line-up of powers and personalities.

Con-The NA are mostly street-level brawlers and Spidey is a useless ***** who cracks sophomoric jokes.

Pro-CA stories actually WENT somewhere.

Con-NA took over a freakin' YEAR to completely assemble and got more play in OTHER books instead of their own.

Pro-Despite some rough periods, th' CA had consistently good writers.

Con-The NA were written 100x better and made more likeable in said other books.

Pro-CA didn't have to adhere to th' stupid TPB rule, meanin' they could have deep and engagin' stories that spanned months or years.

Con-To fill a trade we get a Bendis talkin' head issue.

 

[Varient]

Tsk.

New Avengers:

Pro - return to sort of stories that made Hawkeye an Avenger, back when the Avengers were - An outdated WW2 hero, A Subsonic Speedster, A woman who fired energy from her hands sporaticaly, and a carny trick shooter.

Con - Having to fight the inertia of fanboys who have issue with "too much change" because there isn't a "west Coast Avengers" to put their fav mid-level c-range heroes into.

Comment: Having read the Avengers for years - I can say that they have up to this point past the time of Stan Lee more of a Soap Opera telling stories of human low level heroes dealing with world - shattering events.

I remember the mess with Black Widow and Hawkeye, The mess with the Pyms, The mess with Thor and his Brother,.......

The last few years before Diss- Assembled, the Avengers were definitly NOT the worlds Mightiest,.. Barely had a handle on handling world class stuff and was a REHASH of classic stories of the past.

Sorry but The number of Ultron/Kang/Avengers vs the Government/ Avengers versus the KREE-Skrulls had gotten old for me.

Again "No Heat,..." I'm just underwhelmed by the amount of noise still going on on this topic.

Why? The Nay Sayers appeared to have gotten what they wanted,... The "OLD" Avengers will return. The New Avengers have ended "their run"

ME? I'll miss the breath of fresh air of reading Parker almost losing control and pasting logan, the sexual tension of have Spiderwoman on a team of ALL men with her "**** me" aroma messing with their heads, the by-play between Stark and Parker as Peters intelligence is achknowledged fo the first time regularly in DECADES!

New Avengers has gone back to Avengers roots,... but too many fans refuse to read that because their favs are not on the team.


Please stop saying Hawkeye could be considered part of "the mightiest" He was originally a plot device for IronMan,... A B*tch for the Swordsman, and wimp for the widow before being in the avengers beat him into some kind of hero you can appreciate.

This didn't happen within ten, 20, or even 50 issues of the avengers,... but it did happen finally where we have someone ANY of the street level heroes can beat when he's w/o his arrows who can "run with the big dogs" with his arrows.

WAH if you want a lineup that doesn't include cage, spidey, and Wolverine.

No heat but but I've read the avengers have trouble with hydra, (trained goons), AIM, (Trained Geeks), Even the Moleman's Minions, (Trained ????), So having them having issue in an apartment FULL of Ninja's where NONE of them can really "cut loose?"

C'mon,... ANY of them alone would've Wiped the Ninja's if they didn't have to worry about hurting their team mates or killing Ninja's by accident because the apartment was PACKED.

The subject is MOOT,.. lotta fanboys are getting their wish,.. and the group I hang with will probably have to look for "interesting" somewhere else.

Peace.