Ryan Coogler or Ava Duvernay

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I have followed both of their careers. Both seem good. I have to say for me Coogler has been consistent with his progressions. There is no limit to his scope. Ava seems to just be good at indie films. But I feel She didn't handle her step up with Wrinkle in Time.

So share how you feel about these two. They are modern day supposed great directors.
 
This was the first major test of them both at big budget blockbuster level so obviously Coogler wins round 1 but there will be more chances.
 
While I haven't seen A Wrinkle in Time, I don't know if I'd say Duvernay is only good at indie flicks. Or at least, not that exclusively that since Selma wasn't an indie film and that was pretty good.
 
While I haven't seen A Wrinkle in Time, I don't know if I'd say Duvernay is only good at indie flicks. Or at least, not that exclusively that since Selma wasn't an indie film and that was pretty good.

$30 mill or less budget is an indie film. It cost $20 mill.
 
This was the first major test of them both at big budget blockbuster level so obviously Coogler wins round 1 but there will be more chances.

I hope she gets more chances.
 
Fruitvale Station
Creed
Black Panther

Coogler, quite easily.
 
First of all, there's absolutely no reason to put "or" between these two. They are not in competition, outside of perhaps Disney's shortsighted scheduling against itself.

People who aren't familiar with the story may not know that Wrinkle In Time has always been thought to be unfilmable (and some say it still is). To take her pulling a solid kids flick out of what people said was impossible as her *lacking* in ability to handle scale is absolutely ludicrous. Marvel knew better too, which is why they went to her with BP first. She'll probably get more chances, but maybe have to do something safer, and aimed four quadrant. If she wants.

The fact that this is not being taken as apples and oranges is bothersome.
 
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First of all, there's absolutely no reason to put "or" between these two. They are not in competition, outside of perhaps Disney's shortsighted scheduling against itself.

People who aren't familiar with the story may not know that Wrinkle In Time has always been thought to be unfilmable (and some say it still is). To take her pulling a solid kids flick out of what people said was impossible as her *lacking* in ability to handle scale is absolutely ludicrous. Marvel knew better too, which is why they went to her with BP first. She'll probably get more chances, but maybe have to do something safer, and aimed four quadrant. If she wants.

The fact that this is not being taken as apples and oranges is bothersome.
Do you know why she didn’t want to do BP herself? Would have been interesting to see how that would have turned out too.
 
First of all, there's absolutely no reason to put "or" between these two. They are not in competition, outside of perhaps Disney's shortsighted scheduling against itself.

People who aren't familiar with the story may not know that Wrinkle In Time has always been thought to be unfilmable (and some say it still is). To take her pulling a solid kids flick out of what people said was impossible as her *lacking* in ability to handle scale is absolutely ludicrous. Marvel knew better too, which is why they went to her with BP first. She'll probably get more chances, but maybe have to do something safer, and aimed four quadrant. If she wants.

The fact that this is not being taken as apples and oranges is bothersome.
I took this thread as being more about personal preference between the two.
 
Do you know why she didn’t want to do BP herself?

"Creative differences." Here's her quote:

I'm not signing on to direct Black Panther. I think I’ll just say we had different ideas about what the story would be. Marvel has a certain way of doing things and I think they’re fantastic and a lot of people love what they do. I loved that they reached out to me. In the end, it comes down to story and perspective. And we just didn't see eye to eye. Better for me to realize that now than cite creative differences later.
[LINK]

If I was going to critically analyze her as a director, especially after Wrinkle, I'd say she goes as big as possible (MLK Jr, Wrinkle In Time, 21st Century Slavery, even Queen Sugar is her "getting" Oprah), and that's the kind of thing that just doesn't work with Marvel. If I were a betting man, I'd suspect things like The Ancestral Plane and General Okoye came from Ava's pitch, rather than Coogler or Cole, though there's no way to be sure, it lines up a lot more with Ava's work than theirs.
 
First of all, there's absolutely no reason to put "or" between these two. They are not in competition, outside of perhaps Disney's shortsighted scheduling against itself.

People who aren't familiar with the story may not know that Wrinkle In Time has always been thought to be unfilmable (and some say it still is). To take her pulling a solid kids flick out of what people said was impossible as her *lacking* in ability to handle scale is absolutely ludicrous. Marvel knew better too, which is why they went to her with BP first. She'll probably get more chances, but maybe have to do something safer, and aimed four quadrant. If she wants.

The fact that this is not being taken as apples and oranges is bothersome.

Most posts about directors are Nolan vs Taratino or Lucas vs Speilberg. We always compare directors.
 
"Creative differences." Here's her quote:



If I was going to critically analyze her as a director, especially after Wrinkle, I'd say she goes as big as possible (MLK Jr, Wrinkle In Time, 21st Century Slavery, even Queen Sugar is her "getting" Oprah), and that's the kind of thing that just doesn't work with Marvel. If I were a betting man, I'd suspect things like The Ancestral Plane and General Okoye came from Ava's pitch, rather than Coogler or Cole, though there's no way to be sure, it lines up a lot more with Ava's work than theirs.



To be fair Marvel let Coogler do what he wanted. He used his own editor and wrote the story. You can see his personal stamp.
 
I took this thread as being more about personal preference between the two.

Exactly. I like both. But success in a chosen profession is public and evaluated. And all I'm saying is unlike Coogler she now has a blimish on her record which has an effect on her demand with fans. Nolan, Tarantino, and Speilberg were untouchable in the early years of their careers. Which was important to keep telling the type of stories they wanted to tell.
 
Wrinkle in Time is only a blemish if you hold the RottenTomatoes score as gospel.

Is the film not performing well at the BO either? I thought it was doing well.
 
^It's not, in part because people do take the score as gospel.

Funny enough, I think Wrinkle In Time has one of the same problems After Earth did. It is another $100M movie with a lot of adult Black star power that is ultimately a high concept coming of age table about a Black kid and most importantly FOR children. When you compare Wrinkle In Time, which is rated PG, to the cartoon films it's actually endeavoring to compete with, it starts look like a far superior Home instead of a weak Black Panther.

I took this thread as being more about personal preference between the two.

The OP is analyzing what each is capable of by comparison of their blockbusters. So I took it as that. If we were to ask, here, Who do you prefer, Michael B Jordan or Oprah, would that be an interesting question? Who do you prefer? Russo Brothers or Damien Chazelle (La La Land)? How do you even compare those people, much less conclude what 'scale' each is capable of when they're working on different scales entirely.

But somehow these two directors are viewed as not only comparable in some way, but in competition, and it certainly is ridiculous.

Most posts about directors are Nolan vs Taratino or Lucas vs Speilberg. We always compare directors.

Those people targeted at similar audiences and make similar movies distinct by style. We're not comparing they're styles though, because their movies are highly incomparable. It's like comparing Schindler's List to Die Hard. So it's like "Well, Box Office" with no regard to the dissimilarity between the movies in question.

To be fair Marvel let Coogler do what he wanted. He used his own editor and wrote the story. You can see his personal stamp.

You can, absolutely, and his personal stamp is fits the MCU and lines up with their goals. There's nothing wrong with that, but again, these two directors are very difficult to compare, because they simply don't tell the same kinds of stories.

Which is fine if you want to dig into, but Box Office of a perfectly marketed and positioned MCU film vs Box Office of a poorly marketed and positioned kids film says NOTHING about the directors involved.
 
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Wrinkle in Time is only a blemish if you hold the RottenTomatoes score as gospel.

Is the film not performing well at the BO either? I thought it was doing well.

RT is not credible. But other sites and news organizations say the same thing. And no it isn't performing well at the box office. It won't get repeat views. And word of mouth marketing has taken off. It will need to make $300 mill to break even. It won't make $200 mill.
 
^It's not, in part because people do take the score as gospel.

Funny enough, I think Wrinkle In Time has one of the same problems After Earth did. It is another $100M movie with a lot of adult Black star power that is ultimately a high concept coming of age table about a Black kid and most importantly FOR children. When you compare Wrinkle In Time, which is rated PG, to the cartoon films it's actually endeavoring to compete with, it starts look like a far superior Home instead of a weak Black Panther.



The OP is analyzing what each is capable of by comparison of their blockbusters. So I took it as that. If we were to ask, here, Who do you prefer, Michael B Jordan or Oprah, would that be an interesting question? Who do you prefer? Russo Brothers or Damien Chazelle (La La Land)? How do you even compare those people, much less conclude what 'scale' each is capable of when they're working on different scales entirely.

But somehow these two directors are viewed as not only comparable in some way, but in competition, and it certainly is ridiculous.



Those people targeted at similar audiences and make similar movies distinct by style. We're not comparing they're styles though, because their movies are highly incomparable. It's like comparing Schindler's List to Die Hard. So it's like "Well, Box Office" with no regard to the dissimilarity between the movies in question.



You can, absolutely, and his personal stamp is fits the MCU and lines up with their goals. There's nothing wrong with that, but again, these two directors are very difficult to compare, because they simply don't tell the same kinds of stories.

Which is fine if you want to dig into, but Box Office of a perfectly marketed and positioned MCU film vs Box Office of a poorly marketed and positioned kids film says NOTHING about the directors involved.

It's all part of it. People move films to different time slots all the time. It is what it is. It still falls on the director. Now I started the thread just to see how people felt about the directors. If you like both or one that's ok. But please don't make it personal or make excuses. These directors make big $$$ to do arts and crafts. If they do great or bomb that's their career not ours.
 
How about someone share the good things that both directors bring to the table.
 
I liked Selma more than any of either directors' other movies so Ava, I guess?
 
Why bother even comparing the two of them?
 
"Creative differences." Here's her quote:



If I was going to critically analyze her as a director, especially after Wrinkle, I'd say she goes as big as possible (MLK Jr, Wrinkle In Time, 21st Century Slavery, even Queen Sugar is her "getting" Oprah), and that's the kind of thing that just doesn't work with Marvel. If I were a betting man, I'd suspect things like The Ancestral Plane and General Okoye came from Ava's pitch, rather than Coogler or Cole, though there's no way to be sure, it lines up a lot more with Ava's work than theirs.

Thanks for that.

She was right to not take up the project on that basis. It’s better to identify potential issues ahead of time and make decisions based on that, an important skill I think.
 
Thanks for that.

She was right to not take up the project on that basis. It’s better to identify potential issues ahead of time and make decisions based on that, an important skill I think.

Why didn't she identify the issues with A Wrinkle in Time? It seems a lot are bias towards Ava and can't admit she made a bad movie.
 
Why didn't she identify the issues with A Wrinkle in Time? It seems a lot are bias towards Ava and can't admit she made a bad movie.

Yes, she should have for the exact same reasons why it was good to turn down Black Panther. Given that you've assumed I was biased in favour of her when I wasn't, doesn't that now make it look like you are biased against her? Best to get the answer to your question before drawing the conclusion.
 

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