Should some villains remain joke villains or should they be more serious?

[The Question]

I never said sexual kink, people can be sadistic without being sexual fiends, Green Goblin clearly gets sadistic pleasure out of parker's suffering that doesn't mean he is attracted to Peter. Maybe trapster enjoys humiliation, that would make sense.

Its really hard to build a story arc around a villain that supposed to pathetic and with trapster's body count, he can't even be a lovable loser.

I mean what is the reader supposed to feel about Trapster?

A good writer can make you care about a character, even if they did murder someone in cold blood for money. Hell, it's been done before. Honestly, if I was writing The Trapster, I'd reference his killing that kid often. It would basically sum up the very lowest point in his life that he's now trying to get away from.

I don't Trapster's pissed off attitude would do jack when fighting the Invisible Woman.

That's not exactly what I meant. When someone is angry, desperate, and has nothing left to lose, they're likely to be much more willing to push themselves further, take bigger risks, and make harsher actions than someone who might want to play it safe. Of course, it also depends on who they're fighting.

Here's some character devlopment, Trapster stops having around the guy who tried to kill him and becomes somewhat less pathetic.

Well, the idea would be to have him move in that direction. But he can't just start out that way. He's got to get from point A to point B somehow.

Comic book crime lords hire mercs all the time, look at Kingpin, he did that all the time (Bullseye, Elektra ands Typhoid mary were independent contractors and didn't work for free.) Plus yu have explain how said character became more sucessful, when they were treated as a joke for the best 20 years.

Bullseye only worked for Fisk when he was a part of his organization. Same with Elektra. And while Typhoid is fairly independand, she does tend to gravitate towards Fisk eventually. And of course you'd have to explain how a character became more succesful. That's a given.

 

[The Overlord]

A good writer can make you care about a character, even if they did murder someone in cold blood for money. Hell, it's been done before. Honestly, if I was writing The Trapster, I'd reference his killing that kid often. It would basically sum up the very lowest point in his life that he's now trying to get away from. .

The problem is he isn't evil enough to hate him, he isn't sympathetic (I consider sympathetic villains who had their lives destroyed by circumstances, people who destroy their own lives with their own stupidity deserve contempt) or noble and he clearly isn't a thrill seeker. Why does he deserve anything besides contempt from the readers, what stories can tell that could make him unique and not just another bank robber with a gimmick?

The problem is its hard to respect a villain that is supposed to be smart, but just makes stupid decisions over and over again. Dramatic tension comes from villains who are more powerful than a hero, not less.

Really I don't really buy the desprate angle, many super villains (Mr. Fear and Mysterio just to name a few) have being able to set up fake IDs and have civilain jobs on the side, why couldn't Trapster do that? Smart villains do that all time, many villains have at least one alias so they don't get caught by the heroes right away. he could set up a fake iD and make money as a legit chemist, its not like he is really high profile or even good as a criminal. you are going to have dig deeper then that for a motive.

That's not exactly what I meant. When someone is angry, desperate, and has nothing left to lose, they're likely to be much more willing to push themselves further, take bigger risks, and make harsher actions than someone who might want to play it safe. Of course, it also depends on who they're fighting..

So is a random coke fiend with a gun, doesn't make a junkie a Spider-man level threat. exactly how is trapster more dangerous than a coke fiend with a gun then.

Well, the idea would be to have him move in that direction. But he can't just start out that way. He's got to get from point A to point B somehow...

Alright, then how would you get him from point A to point B

Bullseye only worked for Fisk when he was a part of his organization. Same with Elektra. And while Typhoid is fairly independand, she does tend to gravitate towards Fisk eventually. And of course you'd have to explain how a character became more succesful. That's a given.

I'm pretty Bullseye has taken jobs on the side and Mary is too unstable to truly join any organization. plus Kingpin hired Vulture in the early 90s to kill someone and Vulture has never been part of Kingpin's organization.

 

[The Question]

The problem is he isn't evil enough to hate him, he isn't sympathetic (I consider sympathetic villains who had their lives destroyed by circumstances, people who destroy their own lives with their own stupidity deserve contempt) or noble and he clearly isn't a thrill seeker. Why does he deserve anything besides contempt from the readers, what stories can tell that could make him unique and not just another bank robber with a gimmick?

I don't think he deserves contempt at all. If anything, a person who's life has been screwed up by their own flaws and shortsightedness would resonate with many readers much more than a guy with **** luck. Many people find that their greatest enemy isn't circumstances or other people, but themselves.

The problem is its hard to respect a villain that is supposed to be smart, but just makes stupid decisions over and over again. Dramatic tension comes from villains who are more powerful than a hero, not less.

That is one place that dramatic tension can come from. It's not the only place. And people can be smart in some ways but complete idiots in others. In fact, you do see that a lot in people.

Really I don't really buy the desprate angle, many super villains (Mr. Fear and Mysterio just to name a few) have being able to set up fake IDs and have civilain jobs on the side, why couldn't Trapster do that? Smart villains do that all time, many villains have at least one alias so they don't get caught by the heroes right away. he could set up a fake iD and make money as a legit chemist, its not like he is really high profile or even good as a criminal. you are going to have dig deeper then that for a motive.

Actually, his face was plastered all over the news during the Identity Crisis arc. And yes, doing all that would be pretty damn smart. But just because we, as outside observers looking in on the story, can see how a character could make things turn out well for themselves, doesn't mean the characters themselves can see it.

So is a random coke fiend with a gun, doesn't make a junkie a Spider-man level threat. exactly how is trapster more dangerous than a coke fiend with a gun then.

There is difference between a man who is desperate and has nothing left to lose, and a man who's high on drugs. There's also a pretty big difference between a guy with a gun and a genius chemist who's shown a willingness to kill people when provoked.

Alright, then how would you get him from point A to point B

I'd have him atempt to move away from his somewhat self destructive habits and try and improve his life. But I'd have it be a somewhat gradual process, so it wouldn't seem rushed.

I'm pretty Bullseye has taken jobs on the side and Mary is too unstable to truly join any organization. plus Kingpin hired Vulture in the early 90s to kill someone and Vulture has never been part of Kingpin's organization.

Bullseye took other jobs before and after, but when he worked for the Kingpin, he was The Kingpin's man. Mary holds a very strong sense of loyalty towards Fisk, so even though she often goes off to do her own thing, she's still kind of his.

 

[The Overlord]

I don't think he deserves contempt at all. If anything, a person who's life has been screwed up by their own flaws and shortsightedness would resonate with many readers much more than a guy with **** luck. Many people find that their greatest enemy isn't circumstances or other people, but themselves.

I doubt many people would feel sorry a guy who killed a teenager for money because he is a crappy decision maker. many rapists and serial killers were abused by parents and lots of people still don't feel sorry for them.

That is one place that dramatic tension can come from. It's not the only place. And people can be smart in some ways but complete idiots in others. In fact, you do see that a lot in people. .

How about for a change of pace, he does something smart for once, if he supposed to be a genius level chemist why doesn't develop a nerve gas and sell it on the black market, why he use his skills for something other then making glue?

Heck at this point the government seems willing to hire almost villain (they put Gobby and Bullseye on their payroll) is there any good reason for him to remain a villain at this point?

Actually, his face was plastered all over the news during the Identity Crisis arc. And yes, doing all that would be pretty damn smart. But just because we, as outside observers looking in on the story, can see how a character could make things turn out well for themselves, doesn't mean the characters themselves can see it..

Yeah but that was a likely a few years ago and likely everyone has forgotten with all the CW coverage. No remembers about a manhunt a few years later.

The US government once appointed the Red Skull to be sec of defense under a false ID and Mr. Fear has been responsible for several murders, but still has able to maintain a professor position at ESU. Heck Superman could hide his
ID with a pair of glasses, Trapster could go unnoticed by changing his name and hair color.

Like I said before, how about he makes a smart decision for once.

There is difference between a man who is desperate and has nothing left to lose, and a man who's high on drugs. There's also a pretty big difference between a guy with a gun and a genius chemist who's shown a willingness to kill people when provoked.

A lot of criminals who are poor, uneducated and trying to feed their families, likely much desperate than Trapster and I don't see how a glue gun is more dangerous than a regular gun.

How about trapster does something different besides being Frightful four cannon fodder?

I'd have him atempt to move away from his somewhat self destructive habits and try and improve his life. But I'd have it be a somewhat gradual process, so it wouldn't seem rushed..

So where would you start?

Bullseye took other jobs before and after, but when he worked for the Kingpin, he was The Kingpin's man. Mary holds a very strong sense of loyalty towards Fisk, so even though she often goes off to do her own thing, she's still kind of his.

Again I refer you to Vulture doing a job for Kingpin in the early 90s, he hires independent assassins.

 

[The Overlord]

Double post

 

[Kitsune]

It's always going to be hard to take a character seriously when the went by the name Paste Pot Pete and carried a bucket of Spooge around.

 

[The Overlord]

It's always going to be hard to take a character seriously when the went by the name Paste Pot Pete and carried a bucket of Spooge around.

Maybe they should make him gay, there aren't many gay super villains around. t:

 

[The Overlord]

Seriously though, Trapster realizing that fighting the Thing with a glue gun is stupid and switching gimmicks would be character development. Seriously if trapster is smart, why is he dumb enough to get into fist fights with heroes, instead of using his brain and relying on prep time? he could design traps and sell to other villains, that's way more cliever and profitible than what he has done so far. Here is a good revamp idea I saw online:

There are two villains who have undergone a radical overhaul during their time in the Avengers 2000 universe – two villains who duly deserved such special attention – and the first is Pete Petruski, alias The Trapster, a character who has been plaguing Marvel’s greatest heroes for over forty years. Another genius scientist – I swear, comics couldn’t survive without them – Petruski develops an extraordinary adhesive paste that he loads into a gun and uses to commit crimes, initially under the fabulous 60s name of Paste Pot Pete, a moniker he will thereafter never, ever manage to live down.

As The Trapster, Pete has fought Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four on dozens of occasions, either solo or as part of the Frightful Four, inventing and utilising other traps such as magnetic wire-bombs along the way. And that, to be honest, is about as far as he goes in the real Marvel Universe – but, at Avengers 2000, he has taken a big step into the limelight. As the head of The Alliance, a shadowy criminal cartel that operates throughout the United States – and possibly beyond – The Trapster no longer personally engages heroes in conflict but instead organises and provides resources and information for other villains, in exchange for a share of whatever illegal gains they make from their nefarious businesses. Think of him, then, as a Wilson Fisk for the costume brigade.

Speaking of costumes, The Trapster has had a few of his own during his career; if you don’t recognise his icon above, that’s because his current attire is brand spanking new, consisting of a welder’s mask and boiler suit with a heavily upgraded arsenal. Avengers 2000-vintage Trapster is a whole new animal, baby. Hear him roar."

http://www.ironrodstudio.com/av2000/issues/SVW/SVW00.htm