The Future of Super Villains in post Civil War Marvel

[The Question]

While I haven't actually played the game MARVEL: ULTIMATE ALLIANCE, in a way it could have been interesting of Dr. Doom attempted to rally the "supervillian community" in a way, much like the Secret Society did at DC. SECRET WAR played with the concept of his sucessor (as he was still "dead" at the time) funding supervillian terror and despite some hassles with that story, the idea itself isn't bad. Dr. Doom has backed/created some supervillians before (Titania, anyone?). Besides, it seems like a waste that all he has done is attempt to claim Thor's hammer.











I understand what you mean. Many times the A-Listers are the ones who get fleshed out, given depth, and whatnot, and a lot of times the B and C (or lower) listers sort of show up when the scene needs a fight and are picked either for history or visual garb/power and not distinctly for personality, which has been left to linger. Some people, for instance, can't see why Trapster didn't just use his paste to become rich by selling it as an adhesive vs. going to crime out of some sort of "arrogance" (especially, as an ex Pro-Commie villian, he hasn't been updated well).



There have been some comics that have attempted to visualize a supervillian underworld; unfortunately it almost always results in some raid or something that leads to most of the villians being arrested or killed; CW: WAR CRIMES and PWJ #4 are good examples. But more has to be done.



The best example of what the optimal result would be is Geoff Jones' Rogues from THE FLASH. Here he took a bunch of classic baddies who in many ways could have been far lamer and outdated than many of Marvel's villians and really made them work as tight knit cabal. They all had an "angle" or something that made them unique, and were above all a challenge. Villians have to consistantly provide challenge; be it an upgraded costume, more practice with their powers, etc, otherwise the hero doesn't have to rise up in kind to prevail and then it just gets boring. Unfortunately, few writers really excell at amping up lower listing villians, and there are few new villians being created to replace the scores that get arrested or killed every year. There's Underworld to some extent, but I can't think of too many others. Bendis averages one amped up baddie every few years; Purple Man was maybe 3 years ago and The Hood is next.



Too often writers do what I call a "One Shot Rogue Syndrome", in which a villian is created for one arc and then is dealt with in a way that he/she cannot return again. JMS made a practice of this in ASM and he's not alone; even Vaughan did this with Nicodemous West in DR. STRANGE: OATH (which was excellent; buy it). What many fail to understand is that if you're not going to write or amp a villian, it was repeat appearences that propelled some at least into B-List. Enough chances to get them right.



Villians, like heroes, have to adapt for the 21st century, but in many ways Marvel is becoming too obsessed with making all their heroes into angsty "gray" characters who can either make blunders or commit atrocities at the drop of a hat, and at best the villians are pawns. In CW, the villians only serve as pawns mostly, and even the one who got amped the most, Nitro, has been "dealt with" by Namor.



I think with work things can be done. The Mafia elements as with UNDERWORLD and what not can be embellished especially in the post SOPRONOS and End-Of-The-CCO age (The CCO prevented "encouraging" crime in many ways). You could have like minded villians form gangs just like troupes of burglars do in real life; why need a team? Why can't they be 4 rogues out to grab a score? If they lose they need to be challenging, and they need to eke out some small victories. I'm not talking about icing some sacricifial hero just for a one shot, I mean a consistant sort of vibe. After all, it's the heroes, not the villians, who are more constricted post CW; the IRON FIST issues all but hint at that (HYDRA can flee the scene knowing that the police will be just as eager to arrest Iron Fist as any of them, if not moreso). But the editorial will has to be there, and as long as the Marvel people see villians as outdated action sequence machines, none of this can happen.

For the most part, that's how I see things. I think that Marvel should start making more, well thought out villain teams, acting similarly to street gangd, crime syndicates, or terrorist goups.

 

[Red Mask]

With a new crimelord appearing there are lots of new ways supervillains can become a threat. Also World War Hulk can create an opportunity for villains to strike in the midst of the chaos.

With the new order, groups like HYDRA and A.I.M. might actually get more followers in response to the Initiative.

Marvel can still write about the MGH drug problem, have it spread more to the suburbs across the States.

Or there can be underground labs that work like Power Broker, giving normal robbers extra abilities.

What if supervillains got into the illegal trafficking of immigrants and used teleportation to bypass border patrols?

America is still the land of opportunity.

 

[3dman27]

that last one is an up to date topic

 

[Red Mask]

that last one is an up to date topic

Are you referring to my post?

 

[3dman27]

yes the bit about supervillians being behind human trafficking/illegal aliens

 

[Bullsear]

Finally, people are asking the questions that should be asked in light of Civil War. I mean, Ronin's identity is interesting and all, but how can a healthy supervillian community thrive in a world where the government coordinates hero teams with surgical precision?

 

[Bullsear]

Many are actually fleeing to Canada to get away from the States and that's where Omega Flight steps in.

May I be the first to say that I love this idea.
Actually, it's kinda lame, but somehow it's endearing to me. I mean, Beta Ray Bill and USAgent on a Canadian superteam?
PARTY ON MARVEL!

 

[Red Mask]

Finally, people are asking the questions that should be asked in light of Civil War. I mean, Ronin's identity is interesting and all, but how can a healthy supervillian community thrive in a world where the government coordinates hero teams with surgical precision?

There never was a supervillain 'community' per se. The Kingpin never liked working with fascists like HYDRA. But in the face of the Initiative it could ironically push the supervillains to create better ties . Also, for decades, SHIELD has not completely crushed HYDRA & A.I.M. Recently in Ms. Marvel we discovered there was still an underground A.I.M. base near New York City. The old flaws we see between today's law enforcement and intelligence groups can be reflected in Marvel too. The new order could inadvertently lead anti-government people to join HYDRA. Then there's the corporate sponsored organizations that never got exposed, like Roxxon Oil and Sebastian Shaw's control over Sentinel development. Most superhero groups don't have the ability to invesigate corporations.

Superweapons in the black market is crime that will never go away. I'm surprised the ATF doesn't complain more. Marvel should address it more often. I'm glad they're writing about human trafficking. That controversial issue can shake things up. The MGH drug threat should also spread because who wouldn't want to be superpowered? The heroes can become blindsided and whoops - some group accomplished the outdated scheme of robbing Fort Knox!

Maybe there will be a story where the government will put strict controls on advanced technology and threaten America's science education and research.

 

[Dread]

For the most part, that's how I see things. I think that Marvel should start making more, well thought out villain teams, acting similarly to street gangd, crime syndicates, or terrorist goups.

Definately. MGH is a gold mine of potential. I'd say terrorism, but after 2002 Marvel really doesn't have the balls to make any terrorist villian who doesn't hail from outdated areas like the Orient or HYDRA (leftovers of WW2); I mean look at what happened to the Danish cartoonists.

Definately the organized crime racket needs to be embellished, but beyond that, villians need to start looking out for each other. Petty squabbles are fun for convo's but if they land your ass on the floor when you fight Spider-Man, they get outdated. I could easily see Shocker pulling a "Capt. Cold" type thing and organizing a loose knit little group. Not standing on rooftops and declaring, "Bwahaha, we are the Masters of Sadism and we want the world!", I mean just trying to rob places or run extortion.

The 50-State Initiative could reveal that supervillians have already carved much of Middle America up and some of these teams have uphill battles.

A lot could still be done, I just worry if Marvel has the editorial will. It's nice that they leave creators so much freedom, but most creators just excell at making "One Shot Rogues" these days.

 

[The Question]

Definately. MGH is a gold mine of potential. I'd say terrorism, but after 2002 Marvel really doesn't have the balls to make any terrorist villian who doesn't hail from outdated areas like the Orient or HYDRA (leftovers of WW2); I mean look at what happened to the Danish cartoonists.

True. I mean, Hydra and the Brotherhood work, but there are literally hundreds of terrorist groups in the real world. Not everything in Marvel should centered around just two. And really, it's not like creating a fictional terrorist group is hard. Just pick a cause and then have the characters take it to the absolute extreme.

In fact, one organization that has a great deal of untapped potential is the Triune Understanding. Like Hydra with the ideals of fascism and elitism, and Axis Mundi, the Friends of Humanity, and the Brotherhood with racial superiority, the Trune Understanding could be Marvel's stand in and allagory for militant religious extremists everywhere. Alas, they seem to have been forgoten.

Definately the organized crime racket needs to be embellished, but beyond that, villians need to start looking out for each other. Petty squabbles are fun for convo's but if they land your ass on the floor when you fight Spider-Man, they get outdated. I could easily see Shocker pulling a "Capt. Cold" type thing and organizing a loose knit little group. Not standing on rooftops and declaring, "Bwahaha, we are the Masters of Sadism and we want the world!", I mean just trying to rob places or run extortion.

I've been thinking, for a while now, that Herman Schultz, Adrian Toombs, Peter Petruski, Aleksie Sytsevich, and John Ohn should get together as a gang of theives. Nothing more than ordinary theives, albiet that four out of the five are highly skilled in areas of engineering, electronics, and physics, and two out of the five have super powers.

 

[The Overlord]

You know what would be cool, if some evil genius creates a computer virus that allows him take control of the nano controls Stark uses to control the T-bolts villains, that would give him an army of super villains that have access to super heroes HQ. Stark has some big advantages (the ability to enslave super villains into doing his bidding, for example) so the only to turn the tables on Tony and get the upper hand on him, is to turn his own strengths against him.

 

[3dman27]

You know what would be cool, if some evil genius creates a computer virus that allows him take control of the nano controls Stark uses to control the T-bolts villains, that would give him an army of super villains that have access to super heroes HQ. Stark has some big advantages (the ability to enslave super villains into doing his bidding, for example) so the only to turn the tables on Tony and get the upper hand on him, is to turn his own strengths against him.

interesting point overlord

 

[The Question]

You know what would be cool, if some evil genius creates a computer virus that allows him take control of the nano controls Stark uses to control the T-bolts villains, that would give him an army of super villains that have access to super heroes HQ. Stark has some big advantages (the ability to enslave super villains into doing his bidding, for example) so the only to turn the tables on Tony and get the upper hand on him, is to turn his own strengths against him.

Honestly, that seems like small thinking in terms of using a computer virus like that. If someone could create a virus like that, they could take control of most electronic devices on the planet. And as technologically dependant as we are, that's complete global domination right there.

 

[The Overlord]

Honestly, that seems like small thinking in terms of using a computer virus like that. If someone could create a virus like that, they could take control of most electronic devices on the planet. And as technologically dependant as we are, that's complete global domination right there.

A lot of heroes like (Wasp, Ms marvel, She-Hulk) have powers that are not dependent on tech and Stark's armour may have defences against such things (considering others have tried to take over over Stark's armour before) compared to these nano probes which are new and untested tech, which not have the defenses that other tech that has around awhile, has. A weapon like that should be used in phases, first free the T-bolts villains to cause the trouble for heroes and then use it to take over the world, otherwise She-Hulk or wasp will stomp you before you can get started.

The fact is if the heroes are playing rough, the villains have to play rougher. the fact that Stark is willing and able to enslave villains, that should scare the crap of villains. What's to say Stark won't enslave any other villains that are captured? If villains don't deal with this, they are in trouble.

 

[The Question]

A lot of heroes like (Wasp, Ms marvel, She-Hulk) have powers that are not dependent on tech and Stark's armour may have defences against such things (considering others have tried to take over over Stark's armour before) compared to these nano probes which are new and untested tech, which not have the defenses that other tech that has around awhile, has. A weapon like that should be used in phases, first free the T-bolts villains to cause the trouble for heroes and then use it to take over the world, otherwise She-Hulk or wasp will stomp you before you can get started.

Nanotechnology uses (or at least will use) some highly advanced programming. If you can create a virus that can control nanotech, then you can pretty much get through any computer defenses. And so what if there are some people who can do stuff without electronics? If you control every computer or computerized device on the planet, you would be the most powerful living being on Earth. The stock market, nuclear missile codes, and various other powerful tools would be at your disposal. She Hulk shows up to beat you up? Drop a nuke on her.

 

[The Overlord]

Nanotechnology uses (or at least will use) some highly advanced programming. If you can create a virus that can control nanotech, then you can pretty much get through any computer defenses. And so what if there are some people who can do stuff without electronics? If you control every computer or computerized device on the planet, you would be the most powerful living being on Earth. The stock market, nuclear missile codes, and various other powerful tools would be at your disposal. She Hulk shows up to beat you up? Drop a nuke on her.

You have to think how this works in terms of story telling teciques, the villain has to powerful enough to pose a threat to this massive team, but not be so powerful that the heroes have no way of suceeding, which is why the nano probes would be affected by this virus, but Tony's armour wouldn't.

 

[Sloth7d]

You know what would be cool, if some evil genius creates a computer virus that allows him take control of the nano controls Stark uses to control the T-bolts villains, that would give him an army of super villains that have access to super heroes HQ. Stark has some big advantages (the ability to enslave super villains into doing his bidding, for example) so the only to turn the tables on Tony and get the upper hand on him, is to turn his own strengths against him.

The Tracer could pull this off easily. Well, he could have if Spiderman hadn't killed him.

 

[Kitsune]

Okay, I was born, raised, and currently live in France, and am probably one of the most American friendly French around, and I'm telling you, the French have more options than America, and would use it.

Just because you're not aware of other superhumans, does not mean they do not exist.

Though I do like how you make it sound like without America, France would just fall. I would ALMOST say that's a typical American to put Americans so high up on the ladder. The world is much more expansive.

And your point to your second thought there is derailing from the original argument. You poised the idea that super villans should take advantage of the situation, and I made the point they couldn't.

Now, as for the task of how they're going to be useful at all? That's to be seen.

It's okay, I think I can safely say that the American opinion of the French is at least as bad as the French opinion of us. I think we're arguing the wrong things here. In the Marvel universe most of the major heroes are in the US (heck most of them are in NYC) and this is a function of the fact that Marvel as a company is in the US. I suppose it is possible that their are a lot of heroes that aren't know to us in the rest of the world, and because background characters tend to get the shaft, many of the heroes in other countries end up going insane, turning into villains or killed (as an example Alpha Flight being killed basically as a way of showing the readers that the "villain" being fought was a bad @$$.) So this leaves the appearance of American having the only viable super teams.

 

[The Question]

You have to think how this works in terms of story telling teciques, the villain has to powerful enough to pose a threat to this massive team, but not be so powerful that the heroes have no way of suceeding, which is why the nano probes would be affected by this virus, but Tony's armour wouldn't.

Why? Tony doesn't have to be fighting. Besides, it's not like I'm even very fond of the idea (it's a tad cliche). I'm just saying that if you are going to go with the virus rout to free all the N-zone convicts, there's way more you could do afterwards. And personally, I don't like falling into cliches and patterns in storytelling too much. Having Tony's armor be imune just because would be one such cliche.

 

[Red Mask]

O.K. They killed Captain America.

That opens up lots of opportunity for more supervillain activity.

ALL HAIL HYDRA!

 

[The Ski Mask]

I guess Supervillans will now be some major A-Listers or B-Listers working together for A-List guys. Extraterrestrial threats? Or Superheros will become supervillans in the eye of foreign nations when they started going overseas.

Oh yea, there is always the Hulk. He is even going to start a World War soon.

 

[Red Mask]

I guess Supervillans will now be some major A-Listers or B-Listers working together for A-List guys. Extraterrestrial threats? Or Superheros will become supervillans in the eye of foreign nations when they started going overseas.

Oh yea, there is always the Hulk. He is even going to start a World War soon.

Outer space - or just just foreign - threats are fairly common. But it's not related to the homegrown crimes within the U.S.A.

 

[The Overlord]

Why? Tony doesn't have to be fighting. Besides, it's not like I'm even very fond of the idea (it's a tad cliche). I'm just saying that if you are going to go with the virus rout to free all the N-zone convicts, there's way more you could do afterwards. And personally, I don't like falling into cliches and patterns in storytelling too much. Having Tony's armor be imune just because would be one such cliche.

Why wouldn't the villain kill Tony right away or have IM kill some Avenger teammates in the first place, wouldn't that make sense if the villain has control over IM? See you if give the villain the ability to kill the heroes in instant, the villain will look like an idiot for not doing so. This is why PM couldn't mind control DD back in DD#4, if he could there would have been no for DD to win.

Besides as long as Stark can use nono probes to enslave villains, that his major advanatage he has over the villains. Why couldn't he just contiue to cpature and enslave villains, until most of the MU villains are his minions? Besides if you don't like the computer virus thing, why don't you come up with a better idea regarding the enslaved T-bolt villains.