Superman Returns Superman Returns is in continuity with the Donner Cut of Superman II! (Spoilers)

[Brainiac 2009]

After watching the surprise ending to the Donner Cut, I realized SR fits directly into this timeline.

Perhaps Singer (in contact with Donner) was aware of the storyline for the Donner Cut when planning how the SR story would flow.


Basically Superman turns back time on Earth in the end (retconning the Zod Crisis from ever happening...which is why it is avoided in the history presented in the prequel comics).

This also explains why Lois doesnt know that Clark and Superman are the same person.


This allows for Superman to have a relationship with Lois (referenced in the vague history of SR) after the events of Superman II without knowing him and Clark are the same man. After everything that went wrong in Superman II, its understandable why Superman wouldnt want her to know about him being Clark just yet, and probably has devoted himself to doing a better job with the masquerade of Clark (which may explain why Routh's Clark is alot more subdued).


So, I guess it all makes sense now.... or does it?

 

[ROBOCOP CPU001]

I will let you know.

 

[The Caped Knight]

After watching the surprise ending to the Donner Cut, I realized SR fits directly into this timeline.

Perhaps Singer (in contact with Donner) was aware of the storyline for the Donner Cut when planning how the SR story would flow.


Basically Superman turns back time on Earth in the end (retconning the Zod Crisis from ever happening...which is why it is avoided in the history presented in the prequel comics).

This also explains why Lois doesnt know that Clark and Superman are the same person.


This allows for Superman to have a relationship with Lois (referenced in the vague history of SR) after the events of Superman II without knowing him and Clark are the same man. After everything that went wrong in Superman II, its understandable why Superman wouldnt want her to know about him being Clark just yet, and probably has devoted himself to doing a better job with the masquerade of Clark (which may explain why Routh's Clark is alot more subdued).


So, I guess it all makes sense now.... or does it?

Indeed .

 

[Warhammer]

Nice.

 

[X Knight]

well.....the problem with that approach is that if Superman turned back the world ( again ) to correct the mess and restore everything back to normal, then wouldn't he reason that it would best NOT to have a relationship with Lois at all ( whether or not he reveals his identity ), reasoning that any type of relationship with a "mortal" would complicate his life.

You would also think that after S2, Supes would realize that it is NOT a good idea to abandon your powers or responsibilities for personal gratification.

I mean, in S2, he gave up his powers to have a relation with Lois and was out of action, for what, a couple of days or weeks? And look at the mess that created, allowing Zod and co. to wreck havoc and create the mess Supes needed to turn back time to correct.

So, after turning back time and fixing the mess, would he then go and leave for 5+ years? If a couple of days / weeks away as Superman was enough for Zod to cause all that mess, imagine how much a mess would be created if he left for several years!!

If anything, after turning back time in S2, Supes would realize that he CANNOT afford to have a normal relationship with Lois ( or any other woman ) without compromising his duty to protect earth. That should make him more committed to sticking around and fighting evil, not sneak away and leave his post for 5+ years.

Plus, if SR is in the continuity of the new Donner S2, then Supes could easily do the same at the end of SR. That is, realizing the mess he's created ( with Lex getting out of prison, the damage caused by NK, the issue with Lois and Jason, etc. ), and the fact that he didn't find anything meaningful at the remains of Krypton ( making his 5+ year trip futile ), Supes could easily turn back time ( again! ) to the point where he decided to leave for Krypton. Then, none of the problems would happen! IOW, just as Supes retconned the events in S2, he could retcon and erase the events of SR..........no?

 

[charl_huntress]

Even if it is in continuity with Donner's cut, Singer is a fool for tying key elements of HIS story to an unreleased director's cut of a movie that for all intents and purposes never saw the light of day until YESTERDAY!

If this is the case than Singer is a bigger ****ing hack than I ever thought he was.

 

[The Kid]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm well I'm going to attempt to use my noodle and do the noodle dance...

Now I'm trying my best to erase everything from Superboy Lives from my memory, but I believe I remember the fortress still being intact... in that part where lex and his crew just waltz in and steal some stuff. Can you tell me how this is the case if superman destroyed it in the donner cut?

 

[Brainiac 2009]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm well I'm going to attempt to use my noodle and do the noodle dance...

Now I'm trying my best to erase everything from Superboy Lives from my memory, but I believe I remember the fortress still being intact... in that part where lex and his crew just waltz in and steal some stuff. Can you tell me how this is the case if superman destroyed it in the donner cut?

I guess you missed the part about him turning back time and it showed everything that got destroyed, going back to how it was the day before......in other words, the Fortress is intact again.

 

[The Kid]

Nope, I didn't miss it since I haven't seen donner's cut yet.

Outstanding.

He can still reverse time...

 

[Brainiac 2009]

well.....the problem with that approach is that if Superman turned back the world ( again ) to correct the mess and restore everything back to normal, then wouldn't he reason that it would best NOT to have a relationship with Lois at all ( whether or not he reveals his identity ), reasoning that any type of relationship with a "mortal" would complicate his life.

You would also think that after S2, Supes would realize that it is NOT a good idea to abandon your powers or responsibilities for personal gratification.

I mean, in S2, he gave up his powers to have a relation with Lois and was out of action, for what, a couple of days or weeks? And look at the mess that created, allowing Zod and co. to wreck havoc and create the mess Supes needed to turn back time to correct.

So, after turning back time and fixing the mess, would he then go and leave for 5+ years? If a couple of days / weeks away as Superman was enough for Zod to cause all that mess, imagine how much a mess would be created if he left for several years!!

If anything, after turning back time in S2, Supes would realize that he CANNOT afford to have a normal relationship with Lois ( or any other woman ) without compromising his duty to protect earth. That should make him more committed to sticking around and fighting evil, not sneak away and leave his post for 5+ years.

Plus, if SR is in the continuity of the new Donner S2, then Supes could easily do the same at the end of SR. That is, realizing the mess he's created ( with Lex getting out of prison, the damage caused by NK, the issue with Lois and Jason, etc. ), and the fact that he didn't find anything meaningful at the remains of Krypton ( making his 5+ year trip futile ), Supes could easily turn back time ( again! ) to the point where he decided to leave for Krypton. Then, none of the problems would happen! IOW, just as Supes retconned the events in S2, he could retcon and erase the events of SR..........no?

Superman only demonstrated the strength to turn back time one day (at his full power).... not 5 years.

Additionally Superman didnt abandon his powers and responsibilities for his personal gratification during the 5 year journey. He went to search for and save the survivors of what he believed was Krypton. He wasnt throwing it all alway for his selfishness to be Lois' lover this time, he was trying to save people.

Finally, you have to remember that Superman never wanted Lois to know. He lied and lied again in the Donner cut, and slipped up once...allowing Lois to figure it out for herself. Clearly Superman wants to have a relationship with Lois here but he doesnt want her to know about Clark Kent being him. Superman needs the Metropolis Clark Kent persona and Lois knowing would just complicate things in the Daily Planet. Therefore erasing what happened allows him to forge a relationship with her as Superman without her knowing that he's always around as Clark Kent.

 

[Brainiac 2009]

Nope, I didn't miss it since I haven't seen donner's cut yet.

Outstanding.

He can still reverse time...

You need to watch it first then. It was an amazing film. The Lester version sucked. This was actually alot more different from it than I thought.

I went in with the preconceived feeling to hate it and I actually enjoyed it.

 

[Brainiac 2009]

Even if it is in continuity with Donner's cut, Singer is a fool for tying key elements of HIS story to an unreleased director's cut of a movie that for all intents and purposes never saw the light of day until YESTERDAY!

If this is the case than Singer is a bigger ****ing hack than I ever thought he was.

Why? He always said it was in "Vague history" with the Superman II (Lester) that we knew about before.

Donner's cut finally gives us the actual direct history leading into SR.

Singer wasnt misleading anyone in his initial statements and the good news is that we got the additional bonus of seeing the direct history that ties into SR's backstory easily.

 

[Spade]

After watching the surprise ending to the Donner Cut, I realized SR fits directly into this timeline.

Perhaps Singer (in contact with Donner) was aware of the storyline for the Donner Cut when planning how the SR story would flow.


Basically Superman turns back time on Earth in the end (retconning the Zod Crisis from ever happening...which is why it is avoided in the history presented in the prequel comics).

This also explains why Lois doesnt know that Clark and Superman are the same person.


This allows for Superman to have a relationship with Lois (referenced in the vague history of SR) after the events of Superman II without knowing him and Clark are the same man. After everything that went wrong in Superman II, its understandable why Superman wouldnt want her to know about him being Clark just yet, and probably has devoted himself to doing a better job with the masquerade of Clark (which may explain why Routh's Clark is alot more subdued).


So, I guess it all makes sense now.... or does it?

Not exactly. One thing to remember- there is a part to Superman Returns that emphasizes the conception of Jason before Superman Returns. Think about it- let's say Singer's Superman story is directly in continuity with Donner's cut of Superman II. This would mean that Superman conceived Jason with Lois in Superman II. But there are signs in Superman Returns that this is not the case. Let's say it is, though. Superman reversed the rotation the world at the end of Donner's cut. This caused the damage to the world in his fight with the three to reverse itself. But logically this not only means that he successfully made Lois and everyone else forget, but that he also reversed the events leading up to Jason's creation.

This opens up two issues- if Donner's cut is truly a predecessor to Superman Returns, then Jason shouldn't be alive. All events during the second film were undone by Superman in his spin around the Earth. This means the supposed conception as seen in Superman II would be undone along with everything else. This also means that out of everyone on Earth Lex Luthor is the only person who remembers going to the Fortress of Solitude- remember, Lex remembers being there before in SR. There is only one thing that could cure this continuity error: the timespin is no longer canon. But this opens up further plotholes- if it isn't, then the three S2 villains should be jailed, and Lois should remember who Clark is.

Furthermore, what I alluded to earlier: the issue of conception. Superman Returns does not make a reference to the point of conception being in S2. Let's say that this is because Lois cannot remember, though- why, then, would she be so jittery when Richard asked her about Superman? Richard only asked her about the article "The Night I Slept With Superman". We then see she her visibly shaken and ranting about how everyone use to be a massive fan and in love with him in some way back then. She replies in the typical fashion of someone with something to hide- if nothing happened that night, why then would there be emphasis or reference to it? Simply because she loved him? I think not. Note it well. It's pretty much the only reference to a point of conception in the film.

Basically, I still can't see the Donner cut fitting into the film as a 'vague history'. The only way I see it working is if the original film's continuity was tweaked a bit. SR points the viewers in the direction of the original film for a point of conception. This would mean that in SR's continuity there is the subtle suggestion...'something'...occured in the feature film around the interview. Lois not really being in shock that Superman is alluded to be the father is yet another big point at Superman: The Movie rather than Donner's Superman II FOS scene. On the subject, if Lex remembers the Fortress but no one else does then either the events of S2 have serious creative liberties taken to them or he visited them not within the events of Superman II but before he was jailed. Again, if one works with what sensibly fits into SR's continuity then Lex merely visited them sometime before he was jailed in the original. Implying he was there in S2 and remembers also implies that everyone remembers the events of Donner's S2. That is not the case as according to the end of Donner's S2.

Singer's film may try to fit itself into Donner's continuity, but it only successfully does this if you are willing to believe that events were altered or added to the first. The second is exceedingly harduous to consider canon to SR based on the aforementioned faults in allusion to the film.

 

[SolidSnakeMGS]

Am I missing something? At the end of Lester's S2, Clark gives Lois a "super-kiss", which I guess deprives Lois of enough oxygen and thus to her brain for her to suffer slight brain damage thereby erasing the events where she discovered Clark was Superman. She forgot Clark was Superman already!

 

[Brainiac 2009]

I didnt read all of that but my post basically said that the conception likely happened AFTER the events of Superman II, after Superman turned back time.

Now that Lois didnt know about Superman = Clark Kent, Superman could go back to flirting with her and possibly persueing a relationship with her (things that were hinted at in Superman The Movie)....thats what led to the conception.

The conception happened after Superman II.

 

[Brainiac 2009]

Am I missing something? At the end of Lester's S2, Clark gives Lois a "super-kiss", which I guess deprives Lois of enough oxygen and thus to her brain for her to suffer slight brain damage thereby erasing the events where she discovered Clark was Superman. She forgot Clark was Superman already!

Ya I think all the major elements of Lesters cut were ignored by Singer, which is why Zod and certain Lester elements werent referenced in the prequel comics Singer wrote.

You could say SR is in vague history with Lester's Superman II but I believe it may be in direct history with Donner's Superman II.......and that Singer and Donner were comparing notes on this project.

 

[SolidSnakeMGS]

I'd have to see the Donner cut I guess to understand completely. So I take it in the DC, Superman reverses everything up to and before the possible conception scene at the FOS?

 

[Spade]

Am I missing something? At the end of Lester's S2, Clark gives Lois a "super-kiss", which I guess deprives Lois of enough oxygen and thus to her brain for her to suffer slight brain damage thereby erasing the events where she discovered Clark was Superman. She forgot Clark was Superman already!

Brainiac 2009 claims that since Singer has steadfastly mentioned that he based the film on Donner's cut. If this were the case then the "super-kiss" is no longer part of the story as that was part of Lester's cut. So SR works on the 'Superman conceiving Jason with Lois in the FOS and then turning back time to make her forget' notion Donner's cut leaves open, which I argue is riddled with plotholes.

I didnt read all of that but my post basically said that the conception likely happened AFTER the events of Superman II, after Superman turned back time.

Now that Lois didnt know about Superman = Clark Kent, Superman could go back to flirting with her and possibly persueing a relationship with her (things that were hinted at in Superman The Movie)....thats what led to the conception.

The conception happened after Superman II.

If you put in what is not mentioned I suppose that would work, but Luthor said he had been jailed for five years before being released shortly before SR. The original intro to Superman Returns would have had Superman leaving Earth based on information Luthor was alluded to have planted on a five-year trip. This means that Luthor was jailed and shortly afterwards planted the info about Krypton surviving to send Superman on his five-year trip. This either means two things- Lex exxagerates, or Superman really knows his way around women to make his move within such a very short period of time.

To me, it opens an equal set of continuity issues.

 

[The Kid]

Whatever. You guys can run around in circles arguing all day. To me, Returns will always just be in continuity with Superman III.

 

[Showtime]

Weyseed Returns.

 

[The Kid]

Where did Wesyeed go?

 

[Brainiac 2009]

If you put in what is not mentioned I suppose that would work, but Luthor said he had been jailed for five years before being released shortly before SR. The original intro to Superman Returns would have had Superman leaving Earth based on information Luthor was alluded to have planted on a five-year trip. This means that Luthor was jailed and shortly afterwards planted the info about Krypton surviving to send Superman on his five-year trip. This either means two things- Lex exxagerates, or Superman really knows his way around women to make his move within such a very short period of time.

To me, it opens an equal set of continuity issues.

Lex didnt have to be out of jail to have the information planted. He has got enough connections on the outside as prequel comic #3 pointed out.


Lex supposedely only had the information planted after he was jailed. The motivation was to have Superman (the only witness whos testimony could incriminate him for the double life sentence) leave and not be able to testify.

Thus, Superman left and Lex only served 5 years.

It still works perfectly, though its uncertain whether the element of Lex being responsible for the false information is in SR canon. It was removed from the shooting script for some reason.

My theory is that they may have Brainiac responsible for the information and drawing Superman to Krypton (in order to use the Return to Krypton footage in the sequel in flashback).

 

[romeogbs19]

Just finished watching it Wow. Just wow. I almost cried seeing Reeve and Brando in that movie -- it was amazing.

Anyways, had to chime in on this. Re: Jason's conception, even though Supes turns back the clock, it doesn't look like everything got affected. Remember Clark goes into the diner after the turnaround, and it seems like they would remember what happened -- as is the case with Lois/Perry looking like they were just plopped out of time and thrown back into the day.

This would suggest that had Lois/Supes conceived Jason, certain events were not undone, which of course is screwy, but I'm sure Donner/Tom would have made it make sense had they actually shot it and done it way back when.

 

[romeogbs19]

On an additional note, this cut really helps explain Lois' overly cold reception towards Superman in SR, as well as how we thought she was too mean to Clark. If Kal wants Supes/Clark to be two distinct people, and not get too involved with Lois as Clark, then the distance b/t them makes sense.

For Lois, she has to be pissed -- think about it. Knowing you must have been screwed by Supes but having no recollection about it. She knows that's his kid, so she has to be thinking he date-raped her ...

Oh geez ... having typed that out, while this starts to make more sense, it also completely paints Supes as someone FAR from the moral ideal ... which really bothers me since that's what he's supposed to be ... Whatever happened to the "I never lie; truth, justice, and the American Way" motto ...?

I feel like the Donner cut helps give sense to the relationships in SR ... but I don't think it's made me like it any more.

 

[Brainiac 2009]

On an additional note, this cut really helps explain Lois' overly cold reception towards Superman in SR, as well as how we thought she was too mean to Clark. If Kal wants Supes/Clark to be two distinct people, and not get too involved with Lois as Clark, then the distance b/t them makes sense.

For Lois, she has to be pissed -- think about it. Knowing you must have been screwed by Supes but having no recollection about it. She knows that's his kid, so she has to be thinking he date-raped her ...

Oh geez ... having typed that out, while this starts to make more sense, it also completely paints Supes as someone FAR from the moral ideal ... which really bothers me since that's what he's supposed to be ... Whatever happened to the "I never lie; truth, justice, and the American Way" motto ...?

I feel like the Donner cut helps give sense to the relationships in SR ... but I don't think it's made me like it any more.

I dont buy this at all.


This is why I have a feeling Jason was conceived between Lois and Superman after Superman II.

Watch you SR DVD. In the scene where Luthor confronts Lois about Jason's paternity, she plays it as though shes lieing about Richard being the father on purpose (to protect Jason).

I have a feeling she and Richard both knew Superman was the father all along based on that. They were just trying to protect Jason's safety under the guise that Richard is the father.

In other words, Lois knows. Her memory wasnt erased and Jason was conceived after Superman II.

That seems the only likely story that lines up with Superman II: The Donner Cut, The Prequel Comics and the SR film itself.