The Hype Religion Discussion and Debate thread!

[random_havoc]

Kel, if there is a God, then he absolutely created us as slaves.

God reportedly knows every action a person will take. Obviously it would be impossible for us to prove him wrong...so we are bound to make the decisions he laid out for us in advance. An abortion doctor is blameless, as that was his assigned decision. Even a rapist or murderer would also merely be a pawn in God's sick, cruel game.

I prefer the idea of there being no god over the idea of one that would write our lives for us, and then torture us for eternity for doing what we could not stop ourselves from doing.

I respectfully and strongly disagree. You completely ignore the fact that God gave us all free will. Yes, He has an overall plan, but he gave us all the ability within the circumstances of our lives to choose how we will live.
Of course, the next argument usually used is how terrible God is for allowing evil things like murder, but then of course He's also "sick" if He doesn't give free will. So it's possible to try to make Him look bad either way when in reality He gave us free will rather than making us slaves, unfortunately a lot of humans have chosen to use that freedom to be "sick" and "cruel".

 

[random_havoc]

I agree.

I think that for a lot of people, accepting religion is like the easy way. I mean, I get it. Everything is laid out for you. How to live life, and what the point of it is. It'd be tempting if the fact of it wasn't so impossibly ridiculously unbelievable to me.

Personally, because I don't believe in the afterlife, the future doesn't scare or bother me in terms of making mistakes.

The only thing that bothers me sometimes is the idea that all the things that I would like to experience before I die, I might never get too. Or that I might have to experience the things I dislike for the rest of my life. That seems very horrible to me, and I guess without having the reassurance of faith I can't know for sure that those things won't be true.

But I believe, because the majority of people who have a degree and have been following a career plan and have hobbies and friends and relationships do eventually get what they want (even if it changes a long the way) and are happy, that LOGICALLY I probably won't have to do all the things I dislike doing, and be in all the places I dislike being in for too much longer.

I have a very keen faith in logic I guess.

Personally, I find the bolded line insulting, presumptuous and judgmental.
I could just as easily argue that choosing the naturalistic/athiestic perspective is the easier way. After all it means you can accept the vast majority of what popular culture is saying. It means (as you said) not having to worry about an afterlife or real judgment. etc.

I don't think either is "easier", life has it's difficulties both ways. For example, I got to endure regular ridicule and occasional threats of violence because of my faith in my public high school despite not ever trying to "preach" it to anyone. I have also lost certain friendships because people presumed things about me when they learned that I take my Christian faith very seriously.

The notion that religion is a crutch for the weak is, imo, a very naive and inaccurate idea.

 

[bunk]

I respectfully and strongly disagree. You completely ignore the fact that God gave us all free will. Yes, He has an overall plan, but he gave us all the ability within the circumstances of our lives to choose how we will live.
Of course, the next argument usually used is how terrible God is for allowing evil things like murder, but then of course He's also "sick" if He doesn't give free will. So it's possible to try to make Him look bad either way when in reality He gave us free will rather than making us slaves, unfortunately a lot of humans have chosen to use that freedom to be "sick" and "cruel".

It's a bit like putting a shock collar on your dog. In theory he could come and go as he pleases, but there isn't really a choice for him.

 

[random_havoc]

It's a bit like putting a shock collar on your dog. In theory he could come and go as he pleases, but there isn't really a choice for him.

So God hasn't really given us free will unless He also gives us the ability to teleport? Or to wipe out or heal people en masse?

What exactly are the limitations in life that you think are the equivalent of a dog collar?

I (and I presume you) have had an incredibly high number of choices in life in which I could have been kind or hurtful to others, helpful or a hindrance. Those are all completely real and free choices given to us. Everything from whether to forgive my wife for an offence or hold a grudge, all the way to the small things like whether to smile at a stranger on the street or give a scowl, all are very real and consequential moral decisions allowed us by free will which God gave us.

The dog collar comparison simply does not fit the reality.

 

[-Arya-]

I could just as easily argue that choosing the naturalistic/athiestic perspective is the easier way. After all it means you can accept the vast majority of what popular culture is saying.

Popular culture? Where on earth did you get this assumption from?

Of course, the next argument usually used is how terrible God is for allowing evil things like murder, but then of course He's also "sick" if He doesn't give free will. So it's possible to try to make Him look bad either way when in reality He gave us free will rather than making us slaves, unfortunately a lot of humans have chosen to use that freedom to be "sick" and "cruel".

God is omnipotent. He could have built a world without murder, treachery, agony, pain, and yet he didn't. For our crimes that he could have hindered, but did not or could not for some reason; he will judge us and send all to eternal damnation. Forever to rot, suffer and cry. Do we really deserve this? Is this freedom?

 

[wiegeabo]

Kel, if there is a God, then he absolutely created us as slaves.

God reportedly knows every action a person will take. Obviously it would be impossible for us to prove him wrong...so we are bound to make the decisions he laid out for us in advance. An abortion doctor is blameless, as that was his assigned decision. Even a rapist or murderer would also merely be a pawn in God's sick, cruel game.

I prefer the idea of there being no god over the idea of one that would write our lives for us, and then torture us for eternity for doing what we could not stop ourselves from doing.

Not having a God doesn't mean we're not slaves.

If the laws of physics can describe and predict how every particle in a closed system will react to everything else, then given a particular state of a system, it is possible to predict all future states of the system.

Given that the universe is one massively closed system, if we know the current state of the universe, then we will know the entire future of the universe.

And we don't actually need to know the state of the entire universe, it's already in a certain state. Therefore, as long as the universe follows the laws of physics, which it must, then it has no choice but to react and evolve in a manner consistant with those laws. Meaning there is no freewill, because all of our reactions are based, not on any real choice, but on only physical and chemical reactions to other physical and chemical reactions.

 

[Schlosser85]

God is omnipotent. He could have built a world without murder, treachery, agony, pain, and yet he didn't.

Well from a Biblical perspective, He DID create a world without pain or suffering called the Garden of Eden, but Adam and Eve broke the one rule He gave them and were cast out.

For our crimes that he could have hindered, but did not or could not for some reason; he will judge us and send all to eternal damnation. This is freedom?

I think the idea is that it's a test of our faithfulness. Humans were cast out of Paradise for betraying his trust, so we have to earn our way back in by proving ourselves.

 

[wiegeabo]

God is omnipotent. He could have built a world without murder, treachery, agony, pain, and yet he didn't. For our crimes that he could have hindered, but did not or could not for some reason; he will judge us and send all to eternal damnation. Do we really deserve this? Is this freedom?

I was thinking of this line of argument against there being a god recently, and something suddenly occurred to me that I'd never thought of before.

So what?

What if God is just like us? What if he is very human in his emotions and reactions, and his reasons for creating us and everything and is, by some definitions, a jerk of an omnipotent being?

If he still holds the only keys into heaven, what does it matter if we don't like how he runs things? It's like that manager at work you just can't stand, but they're the only one who's going to give you that raise or fire you. (Heh...those are actually workable puns)

I'm not trying to make an argument for or against. I'm just bringing up a point. I don't like the idea of going to hell or oblivion. I like the idea of an eternal paradise a lot more. And, if there is a god, I hope he's not a jerk god. But, if he is, what choice do we have? Defying his jerkiness and live 'free' for a few decades, then go to hell for eternity? Or suck it up for a few decades, and then go to heaven?

 

[-Arya-]

Well from a Biblical perspective, He DID create a world without pain or suffering called the Garden of Eden, but Adam and Eve broke the one rule He gave them and were cast out.

Correct. A rule that they had no real knowledge of, since they did not know right from wrong. He also condemned everyone for their crime. Is this fair?

I think the idea is that it's a test of our faithfulness. Humans were cast out of Paradise for betraying his trust, so we have to earn our way back in by proving ourselves.

He's God. He's omniscient. He does not need to 'test' anything.

 

[-Arya-]

I was thinking of this line of argument against there being a god recently, and something suddenly occurred to me that I'd never thought of before.

So what?

What if God is just like us? What if he is very human in his emotions and reactions, and his reasons for creating us and everything and is, by some definitions, a jerk of an omnipotent being?

This would make some sense if scripture didn't describe him as being above humans. Of course, the bibilical god is not the only one. For all we know the Gods of ancient Greece could actually exist with their human qualities in tact, and they could be the ones who are really behind things.

If he still holds the only keys into heaven, what does it matter if we don't like how he runs things? It's like that manager at work you just can't stand, but they're the only one who's going to give you that raise or fire you. (Heh...those are actually workable puns)

If we concede this, then we must aknowledge the fact that we have no freedom. We are truly the slaves of a divine being who wants us to follow his laws.

 

[wiegeabo]

This would make sense if scripture didn't describe him as being above humans.

That's assuming the scripture is the infallible word of god. It might have been at one time, but I seriously doubt that's true today. Man is just too prone to ****ing things up.

If we concede this, then we must aknowledge the fact that we have no freedom. We are truly the slaves of a divine being who wants us to follow his laws.

Not really. It would explain the apparent contradiction of how an omnipotent being could allow such suffering. He gave us free will, and it's our own damn faults.


Although, if I'm remembering some of the scriptures correctly, all those who suffer and parish because of our poor free will choices are rewarded in the end.

 

[-Arya-]

That's assuming the scripture is the infallible word of god. It might have been at one time, but I seriously doubt that's true today. Man is just too prone to ****ing things up.

Well, Im arguing on behalf of someone who does believe this. Not me personally.

Not really. It would explain the apparent contradiction of how an omnipotent being could allow such suffering. He gave us free will, and it's our own damn faults.


Although, if I'm remembering some of the scriptures correctly, all those who suffer and parish because of our poor free will choices are rewarded in the end.

If he gives us free will, then he is no longer omnipotent, nor omniscient.

 

[Schlosser85]

I don't like the idea of going to hell or oblivion. I like the idea of an eternal paradise a lot more. And, if there is a god, I hope he's not a jerk god. But, if he is, what choice do we have? Defying his jerkiness and live 'free' for a few decades, then go to hell for eternity? Or suck it up for a few decades, and then go to heaven?

This is a lot like how I feel.

He's God. He's omniscient. He does not need to 'test' anything.

Again, just Biblically speaking....He's not doing it because he has to, He's doing it because He wants to. He still loves humans even though they betrayed His trust once before, and wants to give us a chance to reenter Paradise. But we have to prove ourselves worthy by being faithful to Him. That's why He gives us free will...it doesn't prove anything if we are forced to obey Him. He gives us the choice of obeying or not obeying, so when we choose Him, it is sincere and it means something.

Just my interpretation.

Correct. A rule that they had no real knowledge of, since they did not know right from wrong. He also condemned everyone for their crime. Is this fair?

He told them not to eat the apple from the tree. This was the only rule He gave them. As for condemning everyone, we're not condemned. Our ancestors got us kicked out, but we are given the chance to reenter.

This would make some sense if scripture didn't describe him as being above humans. Of course, the bibilical god is not the only one. For all we know the Gods of ancient Greece could actually exist with their human qualities in tact, and they could be the ones who are really behind things.

Reminds me of the Supernatural episode where it turned out all the pagan gods also existed and were trying to stop Armageddon because they didn't see why the world where they have to live too should be destroyed just because of a prophecy between Lucifer and the angels that doesn't even involve them. Which was a really interesting way of doing it, I thought...where was I?

That's assuming the scripture is the infallible word of god. It might have been at one time, but I seriously doubt that's true today. Man is just too prone to ****ing things up.

I agree with this. I don't believe everything in the Bible is the unaltered word of God.

If he gives us free will, then he is no longer omnipotent, nor omniscient.

Why? He gave it to us because He wanted to, not because He had to.

 

[-Arya-]

Again, just Biblically speaking....He's not doing it because he has to, He's doing it because He wants to. He still loves humans even though they betrayed His trust once before, and wants to give us a chance to reenter Paradise. But we have to prove ourselves worthy by being faithful to Him. That's why He gives us free will...it doesn't prove anything if we are forced to obey Him. He gives us the choice of obeying or not obeying, so when we choose Him, it is sincere and it means something.

Just my interpretation.

And what happens if we don't obey his erroneous teachings of not following false gods, and not worshipping idols? Is that still love?

He told them not to eat the apple from the tree. This was the only rule He gave them. As for condemning everyone, we're not condemned. Our ancestors got us kicked out, but we are given the chance to reenter.

He told them not to do it, but the fact remains; they did not know what was right or wrong. We can dispute the definition of condemned all day but the larger point here (only in accordance to biblical scripture of course) is that we are suffering for something that someone else did. He also told them that they would die if they ate from the tree. Clearly, they did not die when they ate it.

Why? He gave it to us because He wanted to, not because He had to.

How do you know this with any real accuracy? Do you claim to know the mind of God? Did you know that some parts of scripture throw the concept of free will into question?

 

[TheZink]

I'm just going to chime in on one thing here:

God is omnipotent. He could have built a world without murder, treachery, agony, pain, and yet he didn't. For our crimes that he could have hindered, but did not or could not for some reason; he will judge us and send all to eternal damnation. Forever to rot, suffer and cry. Do we really deserve this? Is this freedom?

The bolded part is what interested me. Wouldn't a perfect paradise without pain, suffering, hunger, fear, murder, etc be...boring? Think about it. You enjoy things much more when you have the fear of losing them. When you've had an absolutely terrible day at work, nothing is better than coming home to your loved one providing you a wonderful evening.

It's balance. You need the bad, the terrible, the agony to actually appreciate the bliss, peace, and harmony. Otherwise it is the norm and you grow complacent. I'm sure God understand this, and thus allows the bad to coincide with the good.

Now, having said that, what does that mean out the "paradise" awaiting us in Heaven?

 

[Schlosser85]

And what happens if we don't obey his erroneous teachings of not following false gods, and not worshipping idols? Is that still love?

What's the proof that it's "erroneous"?

He also told them that they would die if they ate from the tree. Clearly, they did not die.

I suppose being cast out of Paradise could be interpreted as a form of death.

How do you know this with any real accuracy? Do you claim to know the mind of God? Did you know that some parts of scripture throw the concept of free will into question?

I'm just going by my personal interpretation. I'm not claiming anything else. I've already said repeatedly that I don't believe in or frankly care about various parts of scripture.

 

[-Arya-]

I'm just going to chime in on one thing here:


The bolded part is what interested me. Wouldn't a perfect paradise without pain, suffering, hunger, fear, murder, etc be...boring? Think about it. You enjoy things much more when you have the fear of losing them. When you've had an absolutely terrible day at work, nothing is better than coming home to your loved one providing you a wonderful evening.

It's balance. You need the bad, the terrible, the agony to actually appreciate the bliss, peace, and harmony. Otherwise it is the norm and you grow complacent. I'm sure God understand this, and thus allows the bad to coincide with the good.

Now, having said that, what does that mean out the "paradise" awaiting us in Heaven?

Ah yes, now we're advocating uneccessary suffering so we 'might' have the chance to compensate it with good things. God should have come up with a plan so that we would not feel boredom. Clearly, God is capable of that isn't he?

 

[-Arya-]

What's the proof that it's "erroneous"?

Is it bad to believe in other gods other than the biblical god? No? Then this teaching that it is bad is clearly in error.

 

[Schlosser85]

Again, what's the proof that it isn't bad?

 

[-Arya-]

Again, what's the proof that it isn't bad?

Proof that it isn't bad to believe in other gods? Well, I can't say, but you would have quite a conflict with someone who believed in another god.

 

[Schlosser85]

No, not really. Two of my friends are pagans. I'm just speaking from a Biblical perspective.

 

[-Arya-]

No, not really. Two of my friends are pagans. I'm just speaking from a Biblical perspective.

Try saying that to a muslim in Iran.

Anyway, from a biblical standpoint, there is not much written about other gods. The biblical god shows jealousy and hatred towards them because the jews followed or attempted to follow other deities.

 

[Schlosser85]

Christians, Jews, and Muslims all believe in the same deity.

 

[bunk]

So God hasn't really given us free will unless He also gives us the ability to teleport? Or to wipe out or heal people en masse?

I don't follow...

What exactly are the limitations in life that you think are the equivalent of a dog collar?

I (and I presume you) have had an incredibly high number of choices in life in which I could have been kind or hurtful to others, helpful or a hindrance. Those are all completely real and free choices given to us. Everything from whether to forgive my wife for an offence or hold a grudge, all the way to the small things like whether to smile at a stranger on the street or give a scowl, all are very real and consequential moral decisions allowed us by free will which God gave us.

The dog collar comparison simply does not fit the reality.

For the record, none of this conversation is reality to me. It's entirely hypothetical.

If I don't accept Jesus as my personal savior I burn in Hell. That's the "dog collar". There is no real choice.

 

[-Arya-]

Christians, Jews, and Muslims all believe in the same deity.

In theory, sure. In practice, globally, far from it.