The Jean Grey/Phoenix Thread

[Mutant 77]

I mean in terms of the script, how the characters are written. Even Jean talks about her telepathy being underdeveloped, with the Professor helping her learn it.


I think Deadpool 3 is going to try to make sense of the FoX-Men timeline(s), by using the TVA.

I disagree about the actresses. Sophie Turner IMO felt very stilted, almost robotic in her performance, especially in Apocalypse. And the same is true of Famke, to a lesser extent. There's always been this aura of distance between us, and Jean as a character in these movies...

1- Xavier had blocked the vast majority of her power, so she just displayed limited telepathy and telekinesis. That was it. She was at a very early "Marvel Girl" stage at that point. Xavier was seriously freaked out by her "Phoenix" nature and level.
Cyclops and Storm were powerful and skilled, but just "rusty" and "out of shape" (from a conceptual point of view). They had stopped training themselves long time before X1.
In X2 (six months later), they were fine.

2- The continuity is super-okay. Deadpool 3 will be a metafictional superhero comedy, you cannot take that as canon (unfortunately). It's an alternate universe.

3- Famke was very fascinating. Sophie was more vulnerable and melodramatic. I think that the XCM Jean Grey was a constrained person, very afraid of herself, and that's why she (they) looked so distant and emotionally detached. You can see the change of Sophie's Jean at the end of Apocalypse and during the entire Dark Phoenix.
Famke was marvellous in both X2 and TLS.

 

[Marvel united]

1- Xavier had blocked the vast majority of her power, so she just displayed limited telepathy and telekinesis. That was it. She was at a very early "Marvel Girl" stage at that point. Xavier was seriously freaked out by her "Phoenix" nature and level.
Cyclops and Storm were powerful and skilled, but just "rusty" and "out of shape" (from a conceptual point of view). They had stopped training themselves long time before X1.
In X2 (six months later), they were fine.

2- The continuity is super-okay. Deadpool 3 will be a metafictional superhero comedy, you cannot take that as canon (unfortunately). It's an alternate universe.

3- Famke was very fascinating. Sophie was more vulnerable and melodramatic. I think that the XCM Jean Grey was a constrained person, very afraid of herself, and that's why she (they) looked so distant and emotionally detached. You can see the change of Sophie's Jean at the end of Apocalypse and during the entire Dark Phoenix.
Famke was marvellous in both X2 and TLS.

Again, the first X-Men movie was written years before movies like TLS, FC, and DOFP were even conceptualized by the filmmakers. I'm looking at the first film as it was made in 2000, prior to the writers expanding, and explaining the mythology in subsequent sequels, prequels, and requels.

Depends. An effort is being made to fit the movie within the Multiversal framework established by the MCU, do the Fox films by extension, will also be explored through that framework. So retroactive continuity errors -- like FC clearly being written as a reboot of the mythology before the studio backtracked, with ensuing continuity errors as a result of trying it make it fit -- will be explained as it being an alt timeline from the OT.

I simply don't agree. Sophie's "emotional distance" felt more like a weakness of performance, than a perk, especially in Apocalypse, as the character wasn't written to be emotionally closed off at that stage in her life. For Famke, it makes more sense, hence why it's to a lesser extent, because it feels more like a creative choice. But again, it's a far cry from the source material, and makes Jean feel very "alien"; she lacks the warmth, and emotional vulnerability of classic Jean.

Honestly, the same goes for Marsden and Halle. They all felt very "muted" in those movies, but it felt like a directional choice on Singer's plate

 

[psylockolussus]

I hope they cast late 20s to early 30s for Jean. I don't want a teen / early 20s Jean again.

 

[Mutant 77]

Again, the first X-Men movie was written years before movies like TLS, FC, and DOFP were even conceptualized by the filmmakers. I'm looking at the first film as it was made in 2000, prior to the writers expanding, and explaining the mythology in subsequent sequels, prequels, and requels.

You're right. ANYWAY, the 2000 movie was written and filmed in that way, so we must "fill the gaps" by ourselves. And it works beautifully.
By the time the events of X2 occurred (six or eight months later), the team looked well-trained again.
That said, during the final confrontation with Magneto in X1, Cyclops, Storm, Jean Grey and Wolverine worked as one single unit. They did a fantastic job in taking down the enemy, synching their individual powers to each other.

like FC clearly being written as a reboot of the mythology before the studio backtracked, with ensuing continuity errors as a result of trying it make it fit -- will be explained as it being an alt timeline from the OT.

The continuity errors between the Original Trilogy/Origins and First Class are tiny. We can fill the gaps by ourselves.
Read this, for instance: Apocalypse - 5 facts you didn't know about Xavier...

I simply don't agree. Sophie's "emotional distance" felt more like a weakness of performance, than a perk, especially in Apocalypse, as the character wasn't written to be emotionally closed off at that stage in her life.

In Apocalypse, she was scared off by herself. She didn't want to hurt anyone, she was trying to assert her control over her nature and (infinite) powers. She was a very troubled person. She became Phoenix at the very end, and it was the most astonishing and epic moment of the movie. Sophie truly delivered the best.
Dark Phoenix was an entire movie focused on her, and she did a great job with it. I'm sure that the movie will be revalued within a decade. It truly deserves that, because it's a very fascinating, exciting and deep superhero movie.

 

[HydraSith12]

I hope Cyclops is MCU Jean Grey True Love in the Foxverse looked like Jean liked Wolverine more than Cyclops

 

[Mutant 77]

I hope Cyclops is MCU Jean Grey True Love in the Foxverse looked like Jean liked Wolverine more than Cyclops

Not in Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix, anyway...

 

[HydraSith12]

Not in Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix, anyway...

I talk about the Original Foxverse

 

[Exemplar]

A question about Last Stand Phoenix:

Was she (Famke) wearing a wig? I noticed that in some shots, as when the Brotherhood was walking on the bridge, Jean/Phoenix's hair looked very thin on her forehead.
Is that part of her transformation into the "Evil Phoenix"? She looked like a (scarlet) witch.

 

[psylockolussus]

Her hair looked dry in X3.

 

[Exemplar]

Her hair looked dry in X3.

True. We must suppose that it's part of her transformation in Phoenix.

I noticed this in the sequence in which there's a close shot of Magneto's face, seconds before he would move/dismantle the bridge. You can see Phoenix in the background, and her hair look very dry and thin.

By the way, I think that Phoenix used her power to enhance Magneto's. At that point, Magneto was old, he wouldn't have been able to perform such a huge task as dismantling an entire bridge. It wasn't 1973 anymore.

 

[psylockolussus]

Lol no. It was just a bad wig.

 

[Exemplar]

Lol no. It was just a bad wig.

In-universe, it is supposed to be her physical transformation in an evil version of herself.

 

[BobJM]

Still think Maya Hawke would be great as Jean:

 

[Silvermoth]

I’m listening to her on a podcast at the moment about how roe versus wade was originally won. She’s amazing and would be a terrific Jean

 

[Lily Adler]

Should Phoenix be a dissociate identity or an actual cosmic entity?

Also why is Jean not Marvel Girl or Marvel Woman?

 

[Tg11]

Victoria Pedretti

 

[Lily Adler]

Should Phoenix be a dissociate identity or an actual cosmic entity?

Also why is Jean not Marvel Girl or Marvel Woman?

Actually can Jean keep her Phoenix codename this time even without the Phoenix Force. I always found it strange when everyone else has codenames.

 

[psylockolussus]

Phoenix or Marvel Girl.

Yeah it does seem strange, she doesn't use a codename most of the time. But I guess "Marvel" has been used a lot in the comics.

 

[ALittlePush]

I think Rachelle Lefevre should play MCU Jean Grey. Jean needs to be a natural redhead.

Should Phoenix be a dissociate identity or an actual cosmic entity?

I actually liked Phoenix being a dark personality of Jean in Last Stand, following on from the phoenix seen underwater in X-Men 2. However, the Fox movies at that time hadn't done space so they needed to get Dark Phoenix in somehow. The MCU has done space with the Guardians of the Galaxy (so they could've/should've cameoed the Phoenix Force or mentioned it in Volume 3 so fans would know that it is out there thus at least building up some anticipation that at some point Jean is going to take on the phoenix force and eventually become Dark Phoenix.

 

[Silvermoth]

Should Phoenix be a dissociate identity or an actual cosmic entity?

Also why is Jean not Marvel Girl or Marvel Woman?

I think everyone is bored of the phoenix but so much of the x-men lore is sort of built on the phoenix saga. Plus, you’re never going to get a better opportunity with the mcu right there.

Like could you imagine how cool it would be if the guardians are just travelling along like “wow it’s so good hanging out with your friends” and then suddenly ahhhhh fire everywhere and a giant flame bird right on top of them

 

[WatchProtect]

Ya, would prefer Jean use a codename, Marvel Girl is my pick.

I think a Dark Phoenix adaption even 60% more faithful than what we got the previous two times would be worth it, but I don't know that I really wanna see it again. I mean it's cool it was done eventually but could have spent the time doing something else.

 

[Lily Adler]

I think everyone is bored of the phoenix but so much of the x-men lore is sort of built on the phoenix saga. Plus, you’re never going to get a better opportunity with the mcu right there.

Like could you imagine how cool it would be if the guardians are just travelling along like “wow it’s so good hanging out with your friends” and then suddenly ahhhhh fire everywhere and a giant flame bird right on top of them

Cosmic entity seems to be the correct path since Kinberg dropped the ball both times with the story. Seriously dude was given a chance of a lifetime to do a proper Dark Phoenix arc and botched it up again.

 

[psylockolussus]

Simon Kinberg is a terrible writer and a terrible creative. He was really lucky he had made connections with 20th Century Fox.

If Kevin Feige was in charge of Fox's Marvel movies. The last thing he would do after Days of Future Past is to keep the X-Men in the previous decade, and then oversee more mutant related films that really don't sync well with the X-Men films.

It was a great day when Rupert Murdoch made negotiations with Disney to sell 20th Century Tv/film studios.

 

[Tg11]

Or how about Riley Keough as Jean Grey?

 

[Silvermoth]

She was great in daisy jones and the six and she did really well as like, a pretty girl who is relateable but also a bit of a bully