All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 95

[Val_Zod]

Looks like MOS lots it's June record, but it lost it to the biggest opening of all time, so nothing to feel bad about.

 

[DChero]

I'm happy for Jurassic World. I never really thought of have the best record for a specific month as that big of a deal. It's the overall total that really matters.

I wouldn't mind if Batman v Superman were to break Jurassic Worlds record though.

 

[Slade W]

edit.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

"Just rewatched MOS. I noticed on my recent viewing just how key Lois is to the development of Clark as well as the destruction of Zod's plan. To me, I think the main trouble is that much of the plot is devoted towards the world being in danger, thus leaving little breathing room once the action gets started.

I think Batman v Superman looks like it will keep the strong elements of MOS, and hopefully add on to the weaker elements. I still think they should have shown Superman X-ray visioning the remains of the World Engine, and looking for bodies/survivors. On the other hand, I don't get the accusation that he doesn't care about people. The first half of MOS is Clark spending many years in hiding performing anonymous rescues, and the second half is Supes saving the planet. Lois Lane said it best: "The only way you in order to really disappear is to stop helping people, and I guess it's not an option for you."

As for the fighting, he's a man with no experience fighting a half dozen experienced one, and one that's almost as strong as he was. He'd have to be BOTH brutally strong and effective a fighter to navigate the damage away from the respective cities, and this occurs only a few days after Supes learns to fly."

I think the trouble is the emotional climax happens halfway through the film (supes submitting himself to Zod) and so what we are left with is wall to wall action scenes without enough drama.

 

[Aquafinn90]

I realize this question has probably been discussed on here, but I have searched far and wide for an answer and have yet to find one. If each Kryptonian scout ship was equipped with its own "Growth Codex"(as revealed in the tie-in prequel comic) then why did Zod need the codex information that was inside of Kal?

The only thing I can come up with is that these individual growth codex's on each ship were "deactivated" by the Krypton Capital once they had abandoned the outposts. Otherwise, these outpost civilizations would not have died out in theory as they would have had their own codex to build a new population from.

Thoughts?

 

[Captain Tired]

Re-watched it yesterday for the first time in like a year. I never disliked Man of Steel, but upon re-watch, it definitely seems better than I'd remembered. The first time around, I didn't really give Michael Shannon enough credit as General Zod. He was a great villain.

"You're talking about genocide!"
"Yes, and I'm discussing its merits with a ghost!"

I love that small exchange.

 

[Decepticonus]

"You're talking about genocide!"
"Yes, and I'm discussing its merits with a ghost!"

I love that small exchange.

Yup, love it. The reading is like "I can't believe I'm here. Talking about death and with what? A dead guy. WTF?!?!?!"

 

[BH/HHH]

Re-watched it yesterday for the first time in like a year. I never disliked Man of Steel, but upon re-watch, it definitely seems better than I'd remembered. The first time around, I didn't really give Michael Shannon enough credit as General Zod. He was a great villain.

"You're talking about genocide!"
"Yes, and I'm discussing its merits with a ghost!"

I love that small exchange.

Oh yeah he did a great job, the word I would use to describe his version of Zod is believable. He feels very real.

 

[Lantern Venom]

I got the Bluray last week and watched the film again, this time slowing down and rewinding many of the frenetic action scenes. I have an even greater appreciation for what MOS did, which was bring Kryptonian power levels and culture to film. I never felt that way about the earlier Superman films, but Snyder, Goyer, Cavill and crew did an outstanding job of translating the comics.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

BTS images of Man of Steel. The production filmed in base of Edwards Air Force Base, and in the mojave desert in California.

Photos: Mamie Mccall.

 

[BH/HHH]

Awesome thanks for posting

 

[Amadeus Arkham]

Look at that beautiful whale tail.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Awesome thanks for posting

 

[HKpowerup]

I got the Bluray last week and watched the film again, this time slowing down and rewinding many of the frenetic action scenes. I have an even greater appreciation for what MOS did, which was bring Kryptonian power levels and culture to film. I never felt that way about the earlier Superman films, but Snyder, Goyer, Cavill and crew did an outstanding job of translating the comics.

Very true, and that's just one of many under-rated and under-appreicated things about MoS.

The Supes/Zod fight at the end is still the best comic book movie fight I've ever seen (solo and non-solo) as everything about it is memorable: the realism, the score, special effects right down to the minor details, etc.

I think as the years go by more people will come to appreciate MoS as a fantastic modern take on Superman.

 

[Nemeres]

Collected thoughts on the final battle upon rewatching MOS recently. Superman thwarts Zod's plan, so Zod makes it clear that he'll take his revenge by targeting humanity. They immediately dive into a lengthy spectacle of a battle, which, up until the train station scene, comes down to Zod and Superman attacking each other… and only each other, with big collateral damage as a byproduct. As an example of an alternative, JJ Abrams' first draft of Superman Flyby has a pretty chilling visual of evil Kryptonians throwing through the air cars with people still inside -- which gives Superman the chance to be a rescuer right in the middle of a desperate battle situation. So the fight is not only about the fight, but about the villains knowing how to get to Supes through targeting innocents, and him determined to stop it, unable to not make that a priority. By the end of MOS's equivalent, even with the necksnap scene concluding it, the fight that precedes it feels frustratingly like a waste of time because not until the end does it become about Zod or Superman doing the thing that they started the fight over -- Zod threatening people, Superman protecting people. The main motivator is getting at each other, but never the specific thing that compelled them to start fighting in the first place. And it ends up as empty spectacle, up until it remembers to yet again be about something.

 

[Vartha]

Sad news, Chris Cornell has passed. His song Seasons had been in Man of Steel.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/18/arts/music/chris-cornell-dead-soundgarden.html?_r=0

 

[NotNickFury]

Ran across Man of Steel on Blu Ray in Target for under $10. Haven't seen this film in its entirety since the cinema, but may pick it up. I find myself rewatching Clark's first flight as Superman and would like to revisit this film as a whole.

And on a side-note, picked up the Donner cut of Superman II a few weeks ago and it's great. The original is amazing as well, but a lot of what's put back in, like Clark arguing with Jor-El instead of his mother, Lois being more suspicious of Clark, or the added scenes in Washington with the Kryptonians, are great improvements.

 

[misslane38]

Back to this. I do think Jonathan really never overcame his reluctance to let Clark (and the world) face this critical juncture he foresaw upon Clark's revealing himself. In the whole scene before the tornado, he stated that he wanted Clark to still remain in the farm instead of going out into the world. Not the best way to get ready for how to best interact with society. He still wanted to put off all that as long as possible. Understandable, perhaps, but the more I think about it, the better I think it would have been for Clark in this scene to have been portrayed by the younger actor instead of Henry, as some members here have suggested. Sure, there are some advantages to how it was done, but I think the younger version of Clark would have better supported Jonathan's continuous concerns, and would have made it more tragic to lose his adopted father at that stage, while making the older version by Cavill more distanced of that controversial event, allowing for greater maturity.

Jonathan was at a difficult juncture with Clark at that moment. Clark was at the height of his teenage/young adult rebellion, and the age right before most kids get ready to go to college. Jonathan does respond to Clark's desire to have more of a purpose ("I'm tired of safe. I just wanna do something useful with my life.") by extolling the virtues of farming. However, he also admits the limits of his perspective in a way that doesn't impose them on Clark. He says, "We've been doing the best we can. And we've been making this up as we go along, so maybe...Maybe our best isn't good enough anymore." In a way, that frames Jonathan's sacrifice as him giving Clark and the world the gift of time -- time to basically mature in the university of real life -- so Clark could grow beyond what the Kents may have been able to provide. I agree, though, that the younger actor would have helped get the message across a little better.

 

[jfurioso]

Jonathan was at a difficult juncture with Clark at that moment. Clark was at the height of his teenage/young adult rebellion, and the age right before most kids get ready to go to college. Jonathan does respond to Clark's desire to have more of a purpose ("I'm tired of safe. I just wanna do something useful with my life.") by extolling the virtues of farming. However, he also admits the limits of his perspective in a way that doesn't impose them on Clark. He says, "We've been doing the best we can. And we've been making this up as we go along, so maybe...Maybe our best isn't good enough anymore." In a way, that frames Jonathan's sacrifice as him giving Clark and the world the gift of time -- time to basically mature in the university of real life -- so Clark could grow beyond what the Kents may have been able to provide. I agree, though, that the younger actor would have helped get the message across a little better.

Going for a more meta-textual cynical perspective, it would have improved the general perception of Henry as Superman, associating the death of his father with his visibly younger self. But things are easier in hindsight.

 

[jfurioso]

I think for example that the whole response to the question of should he have let the kids die was unnecessarily worded as controversial. A better answer may have been something like "No, but... Maybe there could have been another way. Maybe there is always another way." That would have sustained the thoughtful reluctance yet made Jonathan remain more sympathetic. In contrast, I liked much more the scene in BvS where Clark is given the simple lesson that sometimes, no matter how hard you try, bad things may still happen. Yet both retain the sense that Jonathan is very hard on himself, a trait he taught to Clark, really, and very conscious of how hard it is to make the right choices, or even determine is there are any right choices. But the "there may always be a way" would have been my choice for MOS. And well, it may have led to a different resolution to the final conflict, too. But then we are going too far into fan-fic.

 

[misslane38]

I think a lot of the difference has to do with the lead character exuding a warmth and compassion that the audience can connect with, and the movie creating situations where those emotions can be showcased.

It's almost a given that the main character is going to do some heroic things in a movie like this. It's easy to tune that out if it's not handled in a compelling way.

That's where the comparisons between Gadot's performance and Reeve's performance come from, imho, as they were both able to express that warmth, regardless of an objective tally of their heroic feats.

But, to me, it's not about a tally of heroic feats at all. It's about who Clark chooses to save and how he does it. Saving Pete Ross is like sparing Dr. Poison: an act of compassion. The gentle smile Clark gives Chrissie at the bar and the sweet way he abides by her wishes is just so kind. The quiet smile Clark has on his face when the big seaman who calls him Greenhorn saves his life and the swiftness of Clark's departure from the boat the second he hears of trouble at the oil rig. The "You okay?" he asks of the soldier who falls. The way he gently comforts Lois after she is injured in the scout ship.

Each of these acts of heroism doesn't make an impression on me because of their number alone. It is the range and expression of his heroism. It's the fact that he is protective of women. He's protective of bullies. He's protective of journalists who could expose him to the world. And he does all of this despite the fact that he has been bullied and alone. My heart breaks for Clark in MoS, especially for him as a child, and the fact that he will help those who hurt him and protect those that reject him is just so compelling and inexpressibly beautiful to me. How can I not see warmth and compassion in those acts?

 

[misslane38]

I'd say it comes down to, Superman may have saved people, but there wasn't the sense that he actually cared. At least in BvS, saving people was something he was just going through the motions of doing. It wasn't something he was passionate about, and there was very little appearance that he actually *liked* people, individually. It all had an overpowering feel of burden.

Whereas Diana very clearly cares about saving people, and the care comes before the action. She also very clearly likes *people*, and it shows in almost every interaction she has with others.

I just don't get this "burden" feeling from Superman in BvS. Is he troubled by the response to his acts of heroism? Sure, but that seems natural. I'd be pretty bummed if I put myself out there in the world to save people and give them hope only to be greeted with debates and hatred. It is because Superman continues to be Superman in the midst of all the critical and hateful nonsense that proves to me that he cares. He will drop everything to save a little girl from a fire in Juarez. He didn't have to do that. He chose to do that. He didn't have to appear before Finch's Committee. He chose to do that. He chose to seek out and personally talk to Kahina and the girlfriend of the criminal Batman branded.

I'm also confused about why you chose solely to reference BvS when the conversation was about MoS. In MoS, does it seem like Clark doesn't like Chrissie? Does it seem like he doesn't like the soldier he saves? Does it seem like he doesn't like Lois as he cauterizes her wounds? Clark is a man who grew up in "Man's World" whereas Diana was raised on fantasy stories. Diana's life was a life of privilege. She was the darling child of Paradise Island. She was raised to believe that the world was black and white, and her people were blessed saviors of humanity. Clark came of age in our world. He had trouble breathing as a baby, couldn't focus in elementary school, was treated like a freak as a teenager, and lost his father before he graduated high school. He knew he was an alien, but that was all he knew about who he was. Clark wasn't given a purpose; he had to find it. And it wasn't a fairy tale quest to slay an evil dragon, either. Clark had to figure out how to be his true self in our world that conceals a great darkness within.

The reason I love Clark and Diana is because I sympathize with both of their journeys. I can see how being separate from the world protected Diana and gave her the blind faith she needed to make it most of the way to her confrontation with Ares. Everyone she met and saved before she got to Ludendorff was an innocent victim and she was their anointed savior. But I also see how that same privilege and religious zeal led Diana to reject humanity when her faith faltered. Diana didn't care so much when her fantasy world came crashing down around her. She only regained her faith when the devil revealed himself and Steve gave her something new to believe in.

Clark, on the other hand, is all too familiar with the world and its shades of light and dark. Yet, he serves as humanity's guardian angel anyway. He protects bullies who fear and hate him and saves the lives of intrepid reporters who could expose him to the world in a heartbeat. He saves soldiers who moments ago placed him in handcuffs. And these acts of care and compassion matter. The bully he saves keeps his secret and is there for him when the other boys attack. The reporter he saves protects his secret even though it might cost her everything. The soldier he saves shows the military that he is not the enemy, which enables them to work together to destroy the World Engine and create the Phantom Zone singularity.

If Clark didn't care, if he felt caring was a burden, then why act or help at all? Why save the bully, the reporter, the soldier? Both Jonathan and Martha emphasize that Clark is the one who gets to choose his destiny. He doesn't "owe the world a thing." Yet he acts anyway. He chooses to believe anyway. He chooses to forgive anyway. He chooses to love anyway. Kal-El was a child born to be free and to forge his own destiny. He doesn't have to be what "society intends." So his choices matter. One cannot be burdened to care or obligated to act of there is nothing but one's own will driving one forward. One does not die to save a world that has rejected you unless one is driven by compassion. Actions are everything, and Superman's actions reveal someone who cares deeply about people.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Posted this in the BVS thread but it's just as relevant here:

Just reading For Tomorrow for 5th/6th time and the way Superman is presented in that really reminds me of the one Snyder has given us. He even refers to Lois as 'his world' several times. He has a bit more of an edge like Cavill's Supes as well. It was one of my favourite Superman stories well before BvS came out but I did notice the similarities on my first viewing. I think Snyder took more from the comics than people give him credit for.

 

[misslane38]

I think we can now that Goeff Johns is in charge of the DCEU. I honestly think Superman should be about his relationship between the world and Metropolis and should include more flashbacks of life growing up on the farm.

I just wanted to revisit this part of your post. Why do you feel there needed to be more flashbacks to Clark's life on the farm growing up? I only ask because the time spent on Smallville flashbacks in MoS is double the time devoted to Diana's childhood. We saw Clark as a scared little boy in class; his mommy came to help him control his powers and settle down. We saw him save a bus of his peers, including a boy who bullied him. We saw him overhear the reaction that boy's mother had to what happened, and how Jonathan saw that it was time for Clark to understand more about who he was and how his actions and decisions can't be as simple as he'd like them to be. We saw Clark letting bullies beat him, and how Pete Ross was there to offer a hand. We saw Clark as a teenager rebel against his father's protection and restrictions because he wanted to discover a greater purpose for his life. We even saw Clark playing superhero as a boy on the farm as he parents looked on and dreamed of his future. Why include more flashbacks to life on the farm? To what end?

I don't disagree with any of that.

but with MOS and BvS, there was this lack of heart and warmth which WW had.

with DCEU Superman, there's just this sense of "detachment" and "aloofness" which doesn't suit the character, imo.

yes, Superman saves people and yes he did noble things and yes he did care for people. But the way Snyder portrayed him in the films just lacked that "something," that intangible whatever, that I felt from WW.

I guess I just come at this from a different angle. I feel more for Superman because he is portrayed as lonely and shy. He was bullied and rejected because he was different. Neither he nor his parents knew his true purpose. He lived in a community and in a world that revealed both its beauty and its darkness. Clark chooses to be a hero anyway. Clark chooses hope. In the end, Clark becomes Superman partly because one of the people he saved -- a journalist who could have proven Jonathan's worst fears -- came to know him, care for him, and believe in him. Clark made a connection with Lois that made a path for Superman. And the path that led Lois to Clark was a long line of people who had been touched by him in some way.

In Diana, I see a Princess raised in Paradise: a privileged deity with a destiny. An entire island of women exist to protect, guide, nurture, and encourage her. Man's World is new and its suffering cuts deeply because Diana has been blessed with a childlike ignorance and a divine custodial mission. The moment the reality of the world reveals itself to Diana, she rejects us. She blames us and leaves us to our fate. For Diana, initially warmth and care came with the caveat that her religion must be real in order for humanity to deserve her love and compassion. What would have happened if Ares hadn't revealed himself? In the end, it is Steve who teaches Diana unconditional love.

In other words, I love both Superman and Wonder Woman because they choose love. But I ultimately connect with and admire Superman more because from a very young age he showed that he would choose compassion and restraint in the face of rejection and cruelty. I understand his loneliness and his difficulty trusting people. I see his heart, however, in his actions, and Clark always chooses love over what people may deserve. He did for Pete Ross what Diana did for Poison when he was a child. He did it again for the soldier, for Batman, for Lex, and for humanity itself.

I don't see aloofness and detachment in him; I see a man who others keep at arm's length because they cannot see him as anything other than a scary alien or an angelic messiah. He returns a little girl to her family after saving her from a fire, a warm smile on his face, yet it is the people around him who see only the divine. He is being attacked by Zod and trying to stop him, yet Bruce sees only a future tyrant. The world cannot even decide if mankind should want or seek his assistance. They ask "Must there be a Superman?" and "Superman could've saved your child, but on principle we did not want him to act."

But I see his nerdy and domestic side. I see his attachment to his mother. I see the romantic. I see his little smile when the seaman who calls him Greenhorn saves him on the Debby Sue. I see the sweet smile he shares with Chrissie as he's wiping down the tables. I see him seeking out Kahina in Gotham and choosing to follow up on the concerns the people shared about the The Batman. I see the grin on his face when he sees two big guys kissing on the ferry to Gotham. I see him caring about the girlfriend and the child of the criminal murdered in prison. The way his eyes always seem to linger on the children.

like the Tornado scene.

It should have been Clark out there rescuing a child left behind, not Pa Kent. Pa initially says he'll go, but Clark rushes right into the tornado because that's his natural instinct to save people. Clark is in middle of rescuing the child when he super hears/sees Pa Kent ( who's back with Martha under the bridge ) having a heart attack. Pa knows his son would come for him, but puts out his hand to stop Clark. Pa wants Clark to focus on saving the child - he sees the hero he always knew his son would become.

Clark is torn, but the tornado is right above him, so he dives down and shields the child with his body. When the tornado passes and the dust clears, Clark walks with, clothes tattered, but holding the child safe in his arms. Yeah, the town would know his secret, but by then I think they already knew. But it's a bittersweet victory because Clark was unable to save Pa.

If they had just shot that scene more like that, to show that "connection" between Clark and the people he saves, that would have gone a long way, imo.

It is Clark's natural instinct to save people. He helps his father save the little girl and clearly wants to save his own father. But the tornado scene isn't about showing us that Clark has a natural instinct to save people. We already saw that with the oil rig and the kids on the bus. The tornado scene is about Clark validating and understanding his father's message about how choices have consequences: what may seem like the right choice in the moment may not be because of the unintended effects. Clark could save his father, but in doing so he reveals himself to a world that isn't ready.

Clark isn't ready. He's only seventeen years-old. Your scenario is beautiful, but it evokes the simplicity that Snyder and his Pa Kent are seeking to avoid. Superman can save Earth from Zod but create seeds of vengeance in Wallace Keefe and Bruce Wayne. Superman can save Lois from a terrorist but doom a village to reprisals. Superman can die saving the world but justify using criminals as enslaved hitmen for government hire. Actions have consequences, doing the right thing is never easy, and nothing is ever simple.

 

[misslane38]

There's plenty of Superman stories to pull from. Read Superman: Birthright. The scene where Clark figures out how to disguise his body vs. the 2 second montage we got at the end of MOS is a key difference in someone making a choice of sacrifice to make a disguise work and two supportive parents.

Donner Clark is simply told to have a secret identity and disguise by Fortress Jor-El, and Clark relents. It's a real struggle for him because he is presented as vain throughout the film. Conversely, DCEU Clark had been disguising himself for 16 years, and he spoke to Martha about his reasoning for doing it while visiting Jonathan's grave at the end of the film. Furthermore, Martha was supportive when Clark told her about learning about his people and how he had found a friend in Lois. She even complimented his Superman suit. It was also Jonathan's memory that Martha referred to at the end, and it's a memory of Jonathan that reinvigorates Clark when he's at a lowpoint in BvS. Therefore, Clark in the DCEU does have supportive parents, and maybe to him wearing glasses isn't a sacrifice in the way that it is for Birthright Clark or Donner Clark. Based on how he lived most of his life, he likes to blend in and have privacy, and it's less of a sacrifice when you already know you have an ally like Lois working there who knows who you really are. These stories aren't comparable, and that's okay. They're all good stories.