DC Relaunching Everything? - Part 8

[Saint]

Yeah, but there hasn't been a good WW story dealing with her societal and feministic impact in literally 60 years. If not more.

If there hadn't been a really good Batman detective story, I'd kinda be itching for one, wouldn't you?

Fair point.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Superman a lefty? No way. He's a centrist; if any one exemplifies bringing the left and right closer to the center, it is him (when he is written properly).

Superman before Flashpoint was more of a centrist character, hell I would have characterized him as a center-right character. But Grant Morrison's reboot of the character brings him more in line with the original Siegel and Schuster pseudo-Socialist champion of the people interpretation.

Post-Flashpoint Superman is a leftie and honestly, he's more interesting this way. Even Grant Morrison has come out saying that his Superman is a leftie. Just like how Batman is vastly more interesting as a rugged right-winged libertarian that has been promoted by Frank Miller and taken to the extreme with Morrison.

 

[Scarecrow_King]

Frankly, I don't find the DCnU Superman much more interesting than the old Superman. I think the only reason I find him as interesting as I do is because he's different. Even then, I think only slightly.

I mean, really, would the old Superman not have spoken out against corruption? Would he not have been a champion for the common person? I think he did and he was. It's only natural that a hero of Superman's caliber eventually transcends that.

Action Comics started out with Superman fighting against Glennmorgan's corrupt system. But now that we've seen him punch Braniac in the head, how exciting can it be to see Superman throwing corrupt hoods out of a window?

Superman should be tackling world-level threats. It's Clark Kent that should be trying to clean up Metropolis. That's where the difference between old DCU and DCnU is. Not Superman, but Clark.

 

[Mystirious]

But Wonder Woman's feminist meanings aren't at all irrelevant.

Judeo-Christian society is still a patriarchial society. As much as our laws and media may try to drive equality, there is an inherent inequality built into our social consciousness.

Not to mention all of the inequality and prejudice still faced by gays, racial minorities, and other groups that Wonder Woman could stand as a role model for.

Yep

And personally I agree with Kurosawa completely on his views on Wonder Woman that she needs to be marketed toward the lgbt community

Having her be very pro-woman, pro-lgbt, pro sexual freedom and strongly believing in everyone having the right to be who they want to be would improve both the character and her series

 

[RoughNTumble]

I don't know, I've never really been a wonder woman fan but I'm much more interested in a comic about greek mythology than I am about political messages. Even ones I agree with.

 

[Mystirious]

The Greek mythology would still be there i just think they should improve the character by having her be more like a modern version of what Marston imagined her to be and having her be far more fiercely pro woman and pro lgbt

They also need to bring back all the kink/fetish elements and the wacky stuff like the purple ray, invisible plane and giant kangaroos

 

[Czar Colossus]

Frankly, I don't find the DCnU Superman much more interesting than the old Superman. I think the only reason I find him as interesting as I do is because he's different. Even then, I think only slightly.

I mean, really, would the old Superman not have spoken out against corruption? Would he not have been a champion for the common person? I think he did and he was. It's only natural that a hero of Superman's caliber eventually transcends that.

Action Comics started out with Superman fighting against Glennmorgan's corrupt system. But now that we've seen him punch Braniac in the head, how exciting can it be to see Superman throwing corrupt hoods out of a window?

Superman should be tackling world-level threats. It's Clark Kent that should be trying to clean up Metropolis. That's where the difference between old DCU and DCnU is. Not Superman, but Clark.

You are right. Superman is above political prejudices; it can be said that he was raised with conservative mid-western values (hence the big blue boyscout stereotype), but Superman protects us all. Perhaps more than any other hero he sees us all as one human race. Sure, he has a distinct sense of right and wrong and he is affiliated with America, but when it comes down to it, he is Earth's foremost protector. He is better than all of us; because he is powerful enough to inflict his values upon us, but instead he is a shining example (the secular messiah) to us ordinary people and to other heroes as well.
The trouble today is too many political or social labels (and I'm guilty of it). We all basically desire the same things in life; health, security, happiness etc. We just disagree on how to achieve it. Our so-called leaders have us so divided it's sickening. Superman is supposed to be the epitome of good. He does transcend all of that. Some find him boring because of that. Being moral and honest because it is right may seem too simplistic and uninteresting to some, but that's why he is my favorite.
As Richard Donner once said "Run for President Superman; we sure need you now."

 

[SuperFerret]

I really don't want politics mixed in with major superheroes.

And I definitely don't need sexual kinks in Wonder Woman stories.

 

[lixdexia]

I really don't want politics mixed in with major superheroes.

And I definitely don't need sexual kinks in Wonder Woman stories.

 

[Czar Colossus]

Just like how Batman is vastly more interesting as a rugged right-winged libertarian that has been promoted by Frank Miller and taken to the extreme with Morrison.

In secret origin Mark Waid stated that Miller meant for Batman to represent liberalism and Superman conservatism (as he was represented as a tool of the Reagan administration). We all know who was on the winning end at the climax. So I'm inclined to believe Miller is more left leaning.
I'm not insinuating that you are wrong; simply that all of this is subject to one's interpretation apparently. It makes for great conversation.

 

[Anubis]

Miller WAS left leaning. As he's gotten older, his views have changed....as most people do.

Also, that s**t was out of continuity so it didn't matter. Supes was never....at any point.....like the Superman in DKR.

 

[Czar Colossus]

I really don't want politics mixed in with major superheroes.

And I definitely don't need sexual kinks in Wonder Woman stories.

At least not overtly.

 

[Mystirious]

Fair enough if its not your cup of tea

Personally I'd like to see both be a major part of the Wonder Woman character and her series

I liked it in the Rucka run where she was trying to make the world better not just with super hero stuff but by trying to improve the world in other ways

Like with the book she wrote

 

[lixdexia]

Fair enough if its not your cup of tea

Personally I'd like to see both be a major part of the Wonder Woman character and her series

I liked it in the Rucka run where she was trying to make the world better not just with super hero stuff but by trying to improve the world in other ways

Like with the book she wrote

i liked that too. i would like it a lot less if her message had been more narrowly focused. totally cool with her being a champion for equality, not really interested in her being a champion for a specific group. that's boring to me.

 

[Czar Colossus]

i liked that too. i would like it a lot less if her message had been more narrowly focused. totally cool with her being a champion for equality, not really interested in her being a champion for a specific group. that's boring to me.

Exactly.

 

[Mystirious]

Personally it would make the character more interesting to me and I think it would improve the comic but thats just my opinion on it

 

[Scarecrow_King]

We are all acutely aware of your opinions on promoting lgbt agendas in comics.

 

[Mystirious]

Yep the more pro lgbt they are and the more positive depictions of lgbt characters they feature the happier i am

But I don't just think Wonder Woman should be strongly pro lgbt they also need to bring back the prominent pro woman themes of the original Marston stories.

I think she basically needs to be a modern take on the golden age character. The modern version certainly isnt terrible but I think she needs to be closer to Marston's original vision

 

[hippie_hunter]

In secret origin Mark Waid stated that Miller meant for Batman to represent liberalism and Superman conservatism (as he was represented as a tool of the Reagan administration). We all know who was on the winning end at the climax. So I'm inclined to believe Miller is more left leaning.
I'm not insinuating that you are wrong; simply that all of this is subject to one's interpretation apparently. It makes for great conversation.

Mark Waid is wrong. Miller's Batman has always had a right-winged streak to it. He takes a hardcore right-winged approach to crime (Miller's Batman focuses on mobsters, drug dealers, pimps, the government, etc.), he fights against the oppressive and corrupt police forces, never trusts the government, the government is portrayed in an Orwellian fashion (particularly in the Dark Knight Strikes Again), and his Batman speaks like Clint Eastwood, who is a hardcore libertarian (you can even say that Grant Morrison took that to an extra extent by making Bruce Wayne act like Eastwood).

Frank Miller is a hard core right winger. He makes George W. Bush and Ronald Reagan look like a bunch of ***** liberals in comparison. That's where is criticism of those presidents come from. He got a lot of **** for his rather rude criticisms of the Occupy Wall Street protesters and his blatant Islamophobic beliefs.

 

[hippie_hunter]

DC Women Kicking Ass attended a convention with Francis Manapul in attendance:

What would a con be without a question about the status of Wally West? Manapul stated he had grown up on Wally and “day number one” had made it his mission to try and get Wally into the book and the DC was firm and said, “no, you can’t.” He said he “snuck” him in the book early on to “test the waters” but he had to remove him. Manapul said part of the challenge is that “one you introduce Wally the audience is then going to be waiting for him to become the Flash.” When the moderator mentioned the continuity of Wally and Dick being best friends, Manapul said, “don’t even ask me about that.”

When asked about the guidelines for the reboot, Manapul said there was a general guideline to focus on the core characters. He then elicited a moan from some of the audience when said at one point Ray Palmer and “a guy name Ralph” (a reference to Ralph Dibny) were at one point considered for inclusion in The Flash.

 

[Mystirious]

I utterly loathe Frank Miller personally

Though The Spirit was so awful it was unintentionally hillarious

What do you think of him hippie_hunter

 

[hippie_hunter]

I utterly loathe Frank Miller personally

Though The Spirit was so awful it was unintentionally hillarious

What do you think of him hippie_hunter

Very mixed. I'm a huge fan of his Batman: Year One, his work on Daredevil, and hell, if it weren't for stupid fanboys I'd probably really like the Dark Knight Returns. And yes, I'm a huge fan of Miller's uber-right winged Batman (just like how I really like the super-leftie Superman).

However, Miller's recent work has been nothing but crap. I find his Islamophobia to be extremely detrimental to society and I think he could have worded his criticism of Occupy Wall Street much better.

 

[Hush]

Interesting that DC was hard with Francis on Wally. Not suprising just interesting.

 

[The Batman]

In secret origin Mark Waid stated that Miller meant for Batman to represent liberalism and Superman conservatism (as he was represented as a tool of the Reagan administration). We all know who was on the winning end at the climax. So I'm inclined to believe Miller is more left leaning.
I'm not insinuating that you are wrong; simply that all of this is subject to one's interpretation apparently. It makes for great conversation.

Yeah, I've never seen Batman as right leaning, especially the DKR version. Mark Waid is right in his assessment.

Golden Age and New 52 Supes is unmistakably left leaning, though, and pre flashpoint supes was centrist for sure.

 

[lixdexia]

Mark Waid is wrong. Miller's Batman has always had a right-winged streak to it. He takes a hardcore right-winged approach to crime (Miller's Batman focuses on mobsters, drug dealers, pimps, the government, etc.), he fights against the oppressive and corrupt police forces, never trusts the government, the government is portrayed in an Orwellian fashion (particularly in the Dark Knight Strikes Again), and his Batman speaks like Clint Eastwood, who is a hardcore libertarian (you can even say that Grant Morrison took that to an extra extent by making Bruce Wayne act like Eastwood).

Frank Miller is a hard core right winger. He makes George W. Bush and Ronald Reagan look like a bunch of ***** liberals in comparison. That's where is criticism of those presidents come from. He got a lot of **** for his rather rude criticisms of the Occupy Wall Street protesters and his blatant Islamophobic beliefs.

dead on