Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

[Doomsday]

That is such an arrogant statement. 21 year olds are citizens, and their beliefs and thoughts matter just as much as yours. They may not have a full appreciation of how taxation effects their lives, but you may not have a full appreciation of how important things like education and social welfare are to society.

It's so typical of the baby boom generation at this point. "Oh, sure... I got all these benefits that my parents fought tirelessly for, but I mean... you young kids don't deserve the same benefits we got. You're just entitled, and ruining my ability to retire comfortably!" Absolutely selfish.

Let's just take away any age restriction then. Why not let 12 year olds vote? They're citizens, their beliefs and thoughts matter just as much as yours. You don't know their life experiences, heck they might be smarter than any of us. Sure they might not be able to drive, work, have consensual sex or get into R-rated movies by themselves but their opinions are no less valid than yours.

 

[Doomsday]

Some teenagers are actually really smart. This is Kyle Kashuv. While the rest of his friends from Majory Stoneman Douglass were skipping class, Kyle was in D.C. passing legislation to keep our schools safe.

Kashuv might not have destroyed his credibility like David Hogg and is definitely on the right side of the issue but I still prefer to have educated people with a certain degree of life experience working on policy.

 

[Lighthouse]

Officials would use testing to vote the same way they used to in history; to prevent minorities from voting. They did it with African Americans for years.

 

[Sithborg]

The way the older generations seem to feel the need to screw over the next really confuses me. The boomers have screwed over my generation. And my generation seems to want to mainly dismiss the next.

Working on policy is much, much different than voting on policy. Which is why there are age limits for running for office. Frankly, there needs to be age limits to how old you can be to run for office.

 

[Doomsday]

I don't care what race, gender, religion or political party you're a part of, if you can't answer simple questions like who your Senator is then you shouldn't be voting. We don't need any more of you voting.

 

[Aximili86]

18's just fine to vote. It's these morons trying to drop it to 16 where it gets sketchy.

That being said, all this **** should be the same age - driving, drinking, military service, signing legal documents, voting, the works. Pick an age where you're considered an adult, and have it all consistent. But there's two parts to that, like the "parent's health insurance until you're 26" bull****, you can't really have it both ways complaining about being socially infantilized and then want the helpful stuff. An adult's an adult across the board, whether we label that as 18 or 21 doesn't matter, but we should pick one and commit to it for everything.

 

[Doomsday]

The way the older generations seem to feel the need to screw over the next really confuses me. The boomers have screwed over my generation. And my generation seems to want to mainly dismiss the next.

Working on policy is much, much different than voting on policy. Which is why there are age limits for running for office. Frankly, there needs to be age limits to how old you can be to run for office.

What would help with that is if we had term limits. There's no reason people need to be in Congress for 30 years. People like Nancy Pelosi and Mitch McConnell run on name recognition more than anything which is why they destroy even people of their own party who wish to challenge them. Unfortunately Congress will never implement term limits on themselves because why would they? If voters really, really wanted to bring about change at all levels of government they would introduce term limits in Congress.

 

[Sithborg]

I don't care what race, gender, religion or political party you're a part of, if you can't answer simple questions like who your Senator is then you shouldn't be voting. We don't need any more of you voting.

Again, if you can't read the ballot, should you be voting. You are in support of a literacy test, which was used to prevent the "wrong" people from voting. The education of voters cannot be solved at the barrier to voting. It can only be solved by education.

 

[DeadPresident]

That defeats the point of democracy entirely.

If your gripe with a society is that there are too many uneducated or under-informed people voting then the correct answer isn't to prevent them from voting, the correct answer is improving your nationwide education system to the point where they make better informed decisions.

If the US did that a generation ago we wouldn't have millennials and Gen Xers that voted an incompetent liar into the Oval Office.

 

[Doomsday]

Then we should take any restrictions away shouldn't we? That is if your chief concern is democracy. Shouldn't we let felons vote? What about people with green cards or work visas? What about illegal immigrants? Some of them have been here for decades, what about their vote? Shouldn't they have a voice? The point of democracy isn't to let every single person vote. We've always had restrictions on who can vote. Should we get rid of all of those?

 

[Donner]

I'm wondering why you think David Hogg destroyed his credibility.

Unless...you're one of those people that buys into the conspiracy theory that he doesn't even go to that school. In which case, anything you say will be taken with a grain of salt, if that.

 

[DeadPresident]

Then we should take any restrictions away shouldn't we? That is if your chief concern is democracy. Shouldn't we let felons vote? What about people with green cards or work visas? What about illegal immigrants? Some of them have been here for decades, what about their vote? Shouldn't they have a voice? The point of democracy isn't to let every single person vote. We've always had restrictions on who can vote. Should we get rid of all of those?

Felons, if they're citizens, probably should be allowed to vote. The main point of voting is that you need to be a citizen of a nation to have that right - I would suggest whoever is a citizen, has reached the age of majority, and is of sound mind, should be allowed to vote. I can somewhat understand felons not voting, since they've violated a law, but there's no reason why someone who hasn't been formally recognized as a citizen of a country should be allowed to vote there.

However, when you start restricting citizens from voting based on arbitrary characteristics you will open up the possibility for anyone to try and deny the vote to another group based on whatever spurious reason they can concoct, and however many people they can convince of the same nonsense.

In a world where a flat earth society exists and Donald Trump is president, let's not open up any more options for stupid people in power to negatively affect the average citizen.

 

[Aximili86]

But morons haven't broken the law, Doomsday. You're allowed to be uneducated or hold unpopular views and still have the same say as everyone else, that's the whole goddamn point of a free society with protections.

Felons have committed crimes, that's where the blocked-from-voting stuff comes in. People on work visas and illegals aren't citizens, therefore of course don't have the same protections as people who are.

This elitist take on voting isn't just ignorant of the whole democratic philosophy, it's downright dangerous. Everyone's-equal-but-these-people-are-more-equal, yeah, that's always panned out well historically. Riiiiight.

 

[Sithborg]

Once you have served your time, you should be allowed to vote again.

 

[Doomsday]

But morons haven't broken the law, Doomsday. You're allowed to be uneducated or hold unpopular views and still have the same say as everyone else, that's the whole goddamn point of a free society with protections.

Felons have committed crimes, that's where the blocked-from-voting stuff comes in. People on work visas and illegals aren't citizens, therefore of course don't have the same protections as people who are.

This elitist take on voting isn't just ignorant of the whole democratic philosophy, it's downright dangerous. Everyone's-equal-but-these-people-are-more-equal, yeah, that's always panned out well historically. Riiiiight.

But that's the beautiful thing, you can educate yourself. Anyone wishing to vote could and should be able to pass a simple civics test and if they can't they can educate themselves so they can. See how amazing it is??

 

[Donner]

People in prison should absolutely be allowed to vote. Who they vote for could have a huge impact on how criminals are treated in the criminal justice system. They should have a say, especially since American prisons are atrocious.

 

[Doomsday]

In a world where a flat earth society exists and Donald Trump is president, let's not open up any more options for stupid people in power to negatively affect the average citizen.

Flat earth societies exist and Donald Trump is President exactly because ignorant people are able to vote. I'm not saying that they shouldn't vote no matter what, all I'm saying is that they should make themselves un-ignorant before casting a ballot.

 

[DeadPresident]

Flat earth societies exist and Donald Trump is President exactly because ignorant people are able to vote. I'm not saying that they shouldn't vote no matter what, all I'm saying is that they should make themselves un-ignorant before casting a ballot.

While this is a nice sentiment, it's a pie in the sky pipe dream. Also, the flat earth society doesn't exist because ignorant people can vote - and considering the revelations about Trump and the amount of election interference you can't even blame ignorant people for that necessarily.

You know how you make people un-ignorant before they hit the age of majority? Having a robust education system that sends them out into the world as critically thinking, reasonable adults.

Once someone is already in their mid-twenties or thirties there's little you can do to affect their firmly held beliefs, and preventing them from voting will cause far more problems than it will solve - not to mention it's unconstitutional and wouldn't ever even be tabled for discussion.

You're looking for a short-term solution to a long-term problem. While it would solve the issue of having ignorant people voting in the next election, or the one after that, it won't solve the USA's problem of having an ignorant public. You only do that with far better allocation of resources to education.

 

[Aximili86]

Yes, people have the choice to become more politically informed. Key word being choice, as in even if they don't we're not depriving them of civil participation. 'Cause we're, you know, an apirational society at least in theory. The lowliest homeless guy's voice counts on election day the same as the CEO of a Fortune 500 company or the dean of Harvard.

That's the point of a democratic society. One vote, one person, doesn't matter what status you hold or how much you're worth or whether you have a degree or whether you know jack-**** about the election.

You're coming off really sneeringly elitist here. Yep, sorry, those country rube farmers & dumb**** boozers & druggies get a say too, we as western countries are funny like that. Who'da thought, doing away with feudal heirarchal systems 400 years or so ago was a big step forward? Everyone who's an adult gets the same bite into the election result, what a concept!

And who the ****'s to say who's ignorant in the first place? It's one thing with flat-earthers or "we never went to the moon"ers or whatever, but where does that end, and who makes the call? I mean, even within educated academia there are fairly narrow disciplines - someone who's brilliant at mathematical game theory might know jack-****ity-**** about domestic civics. He's a 145 IQ but can't name 5 U.S. Presidents, or know who the governor of his state is.

Does that guy get to vote? And who the hell determines that, you?

And did you ever stop to consider maybe Donald *****e is president because a certain portion of the public got sick to death of people putting forth things like "only educated people - ie. people with degrees and a part of what I see as a beneficial segment of society - should be able to vote?" Of course that's the type of thing that's going to make anyone outside your bubble raise a big middle finger and vote the other way in spite.

 

[Doomsday]

and considering the revelations about Trump and the amount of election interference you can't even blame ignorant people for that necessarily.

Let me know when you find something.

You know how you make people un-ignorant before they hit the age of majority? Having a robust education system that sends them out into the world as critically thinking, reasonable adults.

Bang up job we're doing so far.

Once someone is already in their mid-twenties or thirties there's little you can do to affect their firmly held beliefs, and preventing them from voting will cause far more problems than it will solve - not to mention it's unconstitutional and wouldn't ever even be tabled for discussion.

Sure there is. People change their minds on things all the time. The only way to do it though is through experience.

You're looking for a short-term solution to a long-term problem. While it would solve the issue of having ignorant people voting in the next election, or the one after that, it won't solve the USA's problem of having an ignorant public. You only do that with far better allocation of resources to education.

It's not a short-term solution, it's just a solution. Our education system needs an overhaul from the bottom up and it won't be fixed through money alone. Look at California, they throw money at education and have some of the worst performing students in the nation. High schoolers learn nothing and are encouraged to take out college loans that ruin their lives. It all needs to be changed, every bit. You know what will help get changes moving along? Term limits and making ignorant people un-ignorant.

 

[Doomsday]

I'm wondering why you think David Hogg destroyed his credibility.

Unless...you're one of those people that buys into the conspiracy theory that he doesn't even go to that school. In which case, anything you say will be taken with a grain of salt, if that.

This kid had the ear of the entire nation. He was in a position to be an image that people would listen to. Instead he let himself become a puppet of the left, parroting ridiculous things like comparing the NRA to a terrorist organization (total number of people killed by the NRA...hold on let me get my calculator here.....ah yes, grand total is 0). His stupid boycott of the woman on Fox News only got her more publicity and higher ratings while making him look like a stooge. I feel bad for the kid, I really do. He managed to turn half the country against him because he doesn't know any better. Maybe he'll educate himself down the road and learn a few facts but calling people terrorists is not how you get people to sympathize with you.

 

[Aximili86]

Term limits and making ignorant people un-ignorant.

"Making".

There you go, dangerous talk there. You can't "make" anyone anything. All you can do is attempt to educate and persuade. But if that fails, fine, that's part of democracy too. Things don't go your way all the time, for right or for wrong.

You can't forcibly change other people's outlook or behavior in a free country. They're citizens, that's enough, that's the hurdle to cross to vote. Assuming you're not a felon, see you on voting day, boom.

 

[Donner]

Well, Doomsday won't get what he wants so we can all be thankful for that.

 

[Sithborg]

This kid had the ear of the entire nation. He was in a position to be an image that people would listen to. Instead he let himself become a puppet of the left, parroting ridiculous things like comparing the NRA to a terrorist organization (total number of people killed by the NRA...hold on let me get my calculator here.....ah yes, grand total is 0). His stupid boycott of the woman on Fox News only got her more publicity and higher ratings while making him look like a stooge. I feel bad for the kid, I really do. He managed to turn half the country against him because he doesn't know any better. Maybe he'll educate himself down the road and learn a few facts but calling people terrorists is not how you get people to sympathize with you.

[looks at the March for our Lives]

I think quite a few people are listening. Especially the next generation. Just because you disagree with him does not mean he is wrong.

 

[Doomsday]

[looks at the March for our Lives]

I think quite a few people are listening. Especially the next generation. Just because you disagree with him does not mean he is wrong.

You're right, it doesn't make him wrong. When he and people like him say that the NRA is a terrorist organization, that we should ban semi-automatic weapons and that Marco Rubio is the same as the school shooter, that's what makes them wrong.