The Rise of Skywalker JJ Abrams is Writing and Directing Episode IX

[henzINNIT]

JJ has his strengths, I kinda think he was created to make The Force Awakens. It was the perfect marriage of his nostalgia and fireworks and an audience that desperately wanted that comfort.

TROS is like the evil twin. It's all of his worst tendencies, his tricks exposed one-by-one at a time when we desperately needed something that felt genuine.

 

[BatLobster]

JJ has his strengths, I kinda think he was created to make The Force Awakens. It was the perfect marriage of his nostalgia and fireworks and an audience that desperately wanted that comfort.

TROS is like the evil twin. It's all of his worst tendencies, his tricks exposed one-by-one at a time when we desperately needed something that felt genuine.

I mostly agree. With two caveats. One being that I think TROS was the chickens truly coming home to roost for a lot of the original sins of TFA. IE-- what started as a mystery box, must now show its work and justify WHY there was even a mystery in the first place.

The other being that I think most filmmakers would've struggled to come up with a truly satisfying ending to the 9 film Star Wars saga. This had the unfortunate position of being a trilogy capper, which historically tend to be the trickiest to do right, and simultaneously the ending to a trilogy of trilogies. So it had like double trilogy juju to deal with, in the most beloved franchise of all time. Then you have it having to follow up one of by far the most polarizing middle chapter of all time. On top of all that, Carrie Fisher passed away, and whatever little detailed planning there was for this trilogy-- the one known thing was that IX was meant to be her film. Then you have JJ coming onto the project late, with 3 months less than he even had on TFA to see this thing through end to end.

Considering everything it was up against, I actually think the fact that we got something watchable (if dumb) out of this movie actually ends up reflecting more positively on JJ's ability to pull rabbits out of hats. I really wish he would've ditched his hyper-pacing for this one, that's my biggest beef. It needed to be a longer film to tell the story it was trying to tell. But it's still not clear to me if the runtime was a JJ thing or a Disney thing. You had Terrio saying he would've preferred to have the movie split in two parts, so...yeah, I dunno.

 

[henzINNIT]

I mostly agree. With two caveats. One being that I think TROS was the chickens truly coming home to roost for a lot of the original sins of TFA. IE-- what started as a mystery box, must now show its work and justify WHY there was even a mystery in the first place.

The other being that I think most filmmakers would've struggled to come up with a truly satisfying ending to the 9 film Star Wars saga. This had the unfortunate position of being a trilogy capper, which historically tend to be the trickiest to do right, and simultaneously the ending to a trilogy of trilogies. So it had like double trilogy juju to deal with, in the most beloved franchise of all time. Then you have it having to follow up one of by far the most polarizing middle chapter of all time. On top of all that, Carrie Fisher passed away, and whatever little detailed planning there was for this trilogy-- the one known thing was that IX was meant to be her film. Then you have JJ coming onto the project late, with 3 months less than he even had on TFA to see this thing through end to end.

Considering everything it was up against, I actually think the fact that we got something watchable (if dumb) out of this movie actually ends up reflecting more positively on JJ's ability to pull rabbits out of hats. I really wish he would've ditched his hyper-pacing for this one, that's my biggest beef. It needed to be a longer film to tell the story it was trying to tell. But it's still not clear to me if the runtime was a JJ thing or a Disney thing. You had Terrio saying he would've preferred to have the movie split in two parts, so...yeah, I dunno.

Agreed all round here. There were some basic world-building flaws in 7 that became more and more apparent in the following films. I was forgiving at the time when there was space to develop things more. Obviously by episode 9 things were different.

I also agree JJ deserves some credit for even assembling a film at all, considering the time he was given. It's unclear how much it affected production, but there was clearly a lot of scrambling and panicking behind the scenes so it can't have been an easy time.

What a terrible writing pair to assemble for 9 though. That is where I'm far less forgiving of Abrams.

 

[BatLobster]

Agreed all round here. There were some basic world-building flaws in 7 that became more and more apparent in the following films. I was forgiving at the time when there was space to develop things more. Obviously by episode 9 things were different.

I also agree JJ deserves some credit for even assembling a film at all, considering the time he was given. It's unclear how much it affected production, but there was clearly a lot of scrambling and panicking behind the scenes so it can't have been an easy time.

What a terrible writing pair to assemble for 9 though. That is where I'm far less forgiving of Abrams.

Yeah. I was always fairly underwhelmed by the world-building of TFA, but assumed there'd be ample opportunity to flesh everything out in the next two films.

While I like TLJ, it's clear that Rian was more interested in telling a thematic and character-driven story and not as interested in doing the world-building. This was a double edged-sword, because I think it makes for a more "purely cinematic" and complete experience. At the same time, because TFA didn't do world-building so much as it implied a lot of questions and possibilities, it left the final film in a tricky spot. But unlike many I don't blame TLJ for "ruining" the trilogy. I think there was a foundational issue with this trilogy. When they made the first film, they hadn't really answered for "why is this story that seemed pretty definitively over, not over?" Or at the very least, it seemed like the best they had to offer in that regard were some loose thematic ideas about cycles and history repeating.

 

[henzINNIT]

Yeah. I was always fairly underwhelmed by the world-building of TFA, but assumed there'd be ample opportunity to flesh everything out in the next two films.

While I like TLJ, it's clear that Rian was more interested in telling a thematic and character-driven story and not as interested in doing the world-building. This was a double edged-sword, because I think it makes for a more "purely cinematic" and complete experience. At the same time, because TFA didn't do world-building so much as it implied a lot of questions and possibilities, it left the final film in a tricky spot. But unlike many I don't blame TLJ for "ruining" the trilogy. I think there was a foundational issue with this trilogy. When they made the first film, they hadn't really answered for "why is this story that seemed pretty definitively over, not over?" Or at the very least, it seemed like the best they had to offer in that regard were some loose thematic ideas about cycles and history repeating.

Yeah, agreed again.

Johnson's film was probably the correct place in a trilogy to focus on characters, but the world wasn't quite in place. The galaxy felt small after 8.

Hard to blame any one person in the series. I mostly just wish they took their time a little more.

 

[BatLobster]

Yeah, agreed again.

Johnson's film was probably the correct place in a trilogy to focus on characters, but the world wasn't quite in place. The galaxy felt small after 8.

Hard to blame any one person in the series. I mostly just wish they took their time a little more.

100% this. I don't see the ST as the complete abysmal failure the internet is currently acting like it is (before the inevitable "reevaluation" in 10 years). But I think it feels undercooked and didn't reach its full potential, mainly because it didn't have enough time to develop. Really wish they hadn't set a release date for 7 until a script was in place, and wish they had done 3 year breaks between the films. Could've made a world of a difference. Would've been nice if Lucas hadn't been completely alienated by the process and stayed semi-involved as a consultant too. This is why I direct a lot of the blame at Bob Iger moreso than Kennedy for my issues with the ST. I have my issues with some of JJ's tendencies, but he was racing against the clock after a script had been scrapped in both of his at-bats with the franchise.

But, what's done is done.

 

[Frodo]

I think ST is a mixed bag. Its not the misunderstood classic half of fandom thinks, and its not the abomination that the other half of fandom thinks.

It has its high points and its low points. So its gonna have that push and pull between a polarized fandom in which each side thinks they're right and the other side is wrong.

I suspect it will always be controversial to some degree.

You'll still have younger fans debating about whether Rey's story should have gone one way or the other.

You'll still have alot of older fans who disagree with the creative direction of the OT characters.

And all that's not counting the likely Abrams camp vs Johnson's camp of fans.

So I think there's going to be some disagreement. I'd be surprised if there's a consensus on all of the ST films.

In other words, I doubt you'll have SW fandom universally agreeing that they're all good or all bad.

Even the Prequels , while getting some more respect, are still debated about , so I'm skeptical a new generation will automatically love or hate all of the ST films.

The Burton/Schumacer Batman films are still debated and discussed , as are The Raimi Spiderman films, and other entries in franchises. The same will happen with the ST.

I do think however , the actors themselves will come out well. Regardless of the drama and controversy behind the films, the actors themselves for the most part have been embraced, so they're gonna be treated as rock stars.

 

[henzINNIT]

I hope time does what it has for the prequel cast for these actors and the vitriol will ease. I think some views will soften once we've lived in a world where this trilogy exists for a while. That's not to say the complaints will go away, and I think the opposing directors will be a key talking point forever.

 

[Frodo]

I hope time does what it has for the prequel cast for these actors and the vitriol will ease. I think some views will soften once we've lived in a world where this trilogy exists for a while. That's not to say the complaints will go away, and I think the opposing directors will be a key talking point forever.

Oh yeah totally. Look at the Burton vs Schumacer vs Nolan, Raimi vs Webb, Donner vs Lester, etc. fan battles that have gone on for years now.

Had their been three different directors/writers , as originally intended , I think the discourse would be a bit more complicated.

The fact that it turned out to be just Abrams and Johnson means that there's always gonna be a debate about "Who was right and Who was wrong".

 

[BatLobster]

A few things will likely happen. Time does tend to heal all wounds. So the freshness of people's bitter disappointment will fade, if it hasn't already. Then you'll have kids who saw these movie theaters, and even future generations who will watch all 9 movies totally divorced of all the pressure and expectations and baggage we brought into them. Eventually those people will be the dominant voices in the discussion. And these also won't be the last divisive entries in the franchise, especially now in a world where it has no end in sight.

As Frodo said, it's not to say there will be no debate. There always will be disagreement and plenty of "what ifs", but this is the exact thing we saw with the prequels. To think that it's even fashionable to like them now-- that was unfathomable even 5 years ago.

My point isn't even that the ST are great movies. I think my point is more that I think that Star Wars really is for kids most of all at the end of the day, and people who watch the movies when they're younger will likely develop a fondness and nostalgia for them even if they recognize that they have flaws.

 

[Frodo]

A few things will likely happen. Time does tend to heal all wounds. So the freshness of people's bitter disappointment will fade, if it hasn't already. Then you'll have kids who saw these movie theaters, and even future generations who will watch all 9 movies totally divorced of all the pressure and expectations and baggage we brought into them. Eventually those people will be the dominant voices in the discussion. And these also won't be the last divisive entries in the franchise, especially now in a world where it has no end in sight.

As Frodo said, it's not to say there will be no debate. There always will be disagreement and plenty of "what ifs", but this is the exact thing we saw with the prequels. To think that it's even fashionable to like them now-- that was unfathomable even 5 years ago.

I doubt that time will heal all wounds when it comes to these films if we're talking about those who are debating the films now. And I'm basically talking about the GenX through Millennials who are the ones debating this film really.

There's been alot of bad blood in the fandom and that's not gonna go away if we're talking about those who either felt the ST got a raw deal or those who feel Disney ruined the trilogy. I haven't seen that bitterness go away ,and its not going to with if we're talking about the older fans.

As far as people whose first exposure to Star Wars was through the ST , and saw them in the theater, I would agree with you if we're talking about expectations brought into them.

However, I would note though, that just because they may not have come in with expectations as children, doesn't mean they won't form their own views and preferences about how the three films are in relation to each other and how they turned out especially as they age . There views are going to evolve positively or negatively as they age.

They're going to form their own individual views about it and they're not all going to agree. What they feel at 6 may not be the same when they're 26 and they look at the films from a different perspective. Their views may not remain static.

No, they may not have the same sort of debates about what an OT character like Luke would have done, but they may debate about whether Rey should have remained a nobody or not , in addition to other parts of the ST.

At the same time though, the OT films are always gonna be there so they'll have access to go back to those at look at them in relation to the ST.

The same way we look at Casino Royale from 2006 in relation to From From Russia with Love from 1963, younger fans are still gonna be looking at those older Star Wars film which is gonna give them different insight to the films they grew up with.

The OT and the PT are gonna be there . If they become uber SW fans, they're gonna wanna seek those other films out and those other films will effect how they view the films they grew up with.

It also depends on what follows ST. If episode 10-12 stink or aren't as good, that will also effect how younger generations look at the ST.

Now, whether that debate is as bitter and divisive as it is today I can't say. I would hope they do better than my generation has ,but who knows.

 

[Sian]

The first two were fine.
TROS was a disaster area. I honestly don't know what they were trying to do, kill off all the Skywalkers and Solos, promote feminine equality, or simply be a story, but they failed on all counts.
The Skywalkers and Solos will always be the heart and soul of Star Wars. Whoever thought replacing the last of them with a Palpatine needs their head looking. Rey isn't a strong, inspiring female, such as Furiosa from MMFR, Ripley from Aliens or Yennefer from the Witcher. She's an irritating, judgemental Mary Sue. She's supposed!y All the Jedi, but to quote Obi Wan from ANH the Jedi use the Force for knowledge and defense, not attack. She was violent, savage and several times attacked Kylo when he was unarmed.....yet gets a free pass at it because...she's Rey.
And the film had zero plot. It was just a series of action sequences that ripped off Raiders of the Lost Ark, the OT and even The Last Jedi's farthier chase.
Putting Terrio and Abrams together was the worst mistake DLF could have done. My brother, who can't stand Terrio, once said his films are like video games. And that's exactly what we got.

 

[fan4stic]

The first two were fine.
TROS was a disaster area. I honestly don't know what they were trying to do, kill off all the Skywalkers and Solos, promote feminine equality, or simply be a story, but they failed on all counts.
The Skywalkers and Solos will always be the heart and soul of Star Wars. Whoever thought replacing the last of them with a Palpatine needs their head looking. Rey isn't a strong, inspiring female, such as Furiosa from MMFR, Ripley from Aliens or Yennefer from the Witcher. She's an irritating, judgemental Mary Sue. She's supposed!y All the Jedi, but to quote Obi Wan from ANH the Jedi use the Force for knowledge and defense, not attack. She was violent, savage and several times attacked Kylo when he was unarmed.....yet gets a free pass at it because...she's Rey.
And the film had zero plot. It was just a series of action sequences that ripped off Raiders of the Lost Ark, the OT and even The Last Jedi's farthier chase.
Putting Terrio and Abrams together was the worst mistake DLF could have done. My brother, who can't stand Terrio, once said his films are like video games. And that's exactly what we got.

The majority of the Skywalkers were already unable to be prominent factors in this movie. The last movie killed off Luke. The movie before that killed off Han.

Kylo is a (to me, not well written) genocidal, entitled, petulant, parent murdering madman. I'll take Rey over that.

 

[TheVileOne]

I mostly agree. With two caveats. One being that I think TROS was the chickens truly coming home to roost for a lot of the original sins of TFA. IE-- what started as a mystery box, must now show its work and justify WHY there was even a mystery in the first place.

The other being that I think most filmmakers would've struggled to come up with a truly satisfying ending to the 9 film Star Wars saga. This had the unfortunate position of being a trilogy capper, which historically tend to be the trickiest to do right, and simultaneously the ending to a trilogy of trilogies. So it had like double trilogy juju to deal with, in the most beloved franchise of all time. Then you have it having to follow up one of by far the most polarizing middle chapter of all time. On top of all that, Carrie Fisher passed away, and whatever little detailed planning there was for this trilogy-- the one known thing was that IX was meant to be her film. Then you have JJ coming onto the project late, with 3 months less than he even had on TFA to see this thing through end to end.

Considering everything it was up against, I actually think the fact that we got something watchable (if dumb) out of this movie actually ends up reflecting more positively on JJ's ability to pull rabbits out of hats. I really wish he would've ditched his hyper-pacing for this one, that's my biggest beef. It needed to be a longer film to tell the story it was trying to tell. But it's still not clear to me if the runtime was a JJ thing or a Disney thing. You had Terrio saying he would've preferred to have the movie split in two parts, so...yeah, I dunno.

There was no reason 9 had to act as an end to the trilogy of trilogies.

 

[Closerframe]

The problem with the ST in general was its need to try to recapture moments from the original while creating something new. In hindsight, TLJ was the closes to doing this successfully, but unfortunately, a lot of fans didn’t like some of the creative liberties taken. Disney should have taken this opportunity to double down with TROS because at least the trilogy would have felt cohesive. Instead, they opted to forgo most of what Rian Johnson did which lead to a complete mess of a trilogy—even worse than the PT from a storytelling perspective.

I recently rewatched the OT and it really captured the simplicity of this saga—dark vs light. The entire trilogy we’re seeing this external conflict between father and son which inevitably hits the ceiling when they must confront each other in front of the very evil that created the conflict to begin with. If the ST wanted to continue this battle, then having Rey and Ren being cousins would been better at showing how this fight went beyond one puppet master. Sometimes the family we have is not the family we want. Having Luke feel conflicted about his nephew turning to the dark side could have still been explored, and having Rey be Luke’s long lost daughter would have been an interesting dynamic and would have made his return to help the Resistance more meaningful.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

 

[Detective Conan]

Plans don’t mean much when they aren’t executed well, or aren’t good to begin with. Look no further than the DCEU for proof of this.

Snyder and his team extensively planned how his Justice League saga was going to pan out...but that doesn’t mean his planned ideas were good and would’ve been done well(he was apparently considering ideas like Lois having Bruce Wayne’s baby, and evil Superman). Once BvS came out, they basically backtracked on those plans which likely would’ve made for very controversial movies. So even if the trilogy was planned from the very start, it wouldn’t really change the fact that I think Rise Of Skywalker is a bad movie and most of the issue with it comes from the sloppy and terrible storytelling. The plot-points in that movie wouldn’t have been better if it was set up or foreshadowed before. Come on. What killed that movie was the script which felt very much like fanfic.

While planning things may have made the trilogy more cohesive, I still think it would be irrelevant to the actual quality of the story of the movies. Planning stuff can help you get a sense of where the narrative could go but I think one shouldn’t be too beholden to initial plans; especially if better ideas comes along.

 

[Frodo]

The answer is, you can do it either way with or without a plan.

You can have a vague idea of where the story is going, or you can specifically plot out an arch and what will be achieved by each film ,ala Feige, or , you can just make one film at a time, and worry about the next film once you get to it.

There's more than one way to do it.

In this case particular case , however, I think a plan would have helped given that they were going for a writer director driven installments for each film.

When you have that many clashing visions and artists ( Abrams, Johnson, Trevorrow) , at the very least, they all have to be on the same page in terms of where the beginning and end point of the story is.

But , if these are just basically three installments of an ongoing franchise ala Die Hard, then you can have a each filmmaker do their own thing , tell their own story, and do it from the perspective they wish.

 

[Doctor Jones]

I don't expect people to have a full, drawn out plan. Film changes and over the years, sensibilities can change, and sometimes it's good to go with things organically. It's part of the collaborative nature of filmmaking. To me that's not the real issue. It would certainly help, but it's not the crux that people make it out to be with this new trilogy. I think it has more to do with vision and leadership.

With the other six movies, namely the OT, you had Lucas shepherding it all and collaborated with top people to make it happen. Things changed, but you at least had Lucas there with a general, strong vision to keep it consistent. Do you necessarily need that dynamic? Not exactly, but I think you at least need the right creative people who have a vision and want to push things forward. There's a difference between the people in charge guy like George Lucas, while however you want to look at it, having a business acumen, still made something personal and knew to push the story forward versus Kathleen Kennedy who is less creative with her conservative ideas of this franchise.

If Lucasfilm is going to be run more like a company then fine. All I ask is you get someone with vision who understands that this franchise is more than putting Darth Vader in an Obi-Wan spin off show. If you have that right, the right things follow.

 

[GREEN =w= DAY]

No s**t, Sherlock

Guess now that he’s no longer working at Disney/Lucasfilm he finally admits it

 

[Brother Jack]

Probably safe to say he won't be working with Lucasfilm again in any major capacity. I wonder if he takes the response to the ST personally. Star Wars is obviously very close to his heart and I imagine it would be hard to be the guy known for being a big part of the team that screwed it up. Same for Rian Johnson, but in his case it seems he feels more secure in his vision and the capacity he had to execute it. Abrams was always operating from a position of fear to a certain extent, which played out in the chaotic production of VII and especially IX.

 

[Sian]

Abrams, but also Terrio, made a lot of mistakes - but I blame DLF as well.Jason Frye, who wrote the excellent novelisation of TLJ, admitted he had to 'end it' in line with what DLF wanted, and Rian Johnson said '95% of what he wrote' ended up on screen - but DLF had the last call.

TROS was a response to the TLJ backlash. Which goes to show you shouldn't listen to the 'fans'.

 

[Mani-Man]

Abrams, but also Terrio, made a lot of mistakes - but I blame DLF as well.Jason Frye, who wrote the excellent novelisation of TLJ, admitted he had to 'end it' in line with what DLF wanted, and Rian Johnson said '95% of what he wrote' ended up on screen - but DLF had the last call.

TROS was a response to the TLJ backlash. Which goes to show you shouldn't listen to the 'fans'.

Well the Sonic movie says otherwise...but in general, yeah listening to fans isnt a guarantee that things go well.
Fans are way to wide spread and fickle often.

Star Wars is a rather unique case, but the worst case of every bad decision you can make.
I still cant understand how they could be so arrogant and confident that they thought not having a plan when tackling an IP like star wars, wouldnt cause any problems.

 

[Mani-Man]

Abrams, but also Terrio, made a lot of mistakes - but I blame DLF as well.Jason Frye, who wrote the excellent novelisation of TLJ, admitted he had to 'end it' in line with what DLF wanted, and Rian Johnson said '95% of what he wrote' ended up on screen - but DLF had the last call.

TROS was a response to the TLJ backlash. Which goes to show you shouldn't listen to the 'fans'.

Well the Sonic movie says otherwise...but in general, yeah listening to fans isnt a guarantee that things go well.
Fans are way to wide spread and fickle often.

Star Wars is a rather unique case, but the worst case of every bad decision you can make.
I still cant understand how they could be so arrogant and confident that they thought not having a plan when tackling an IP like star wars, wouldnt cause any problems.

 

[TheVileOne]

When you try to please everybody, you please nobody.