The Rise of Skywalker JJ Abrams is Writing and Directing Episode IX

[Frodo]

Well the Sonic movie says otherwise...but in general, yeah listening to fans isnt a guarantee that things go well.
Fans are way to wide spread and fickle often.

Star Wars is a rather unique case, but the worst case of every bad decision you can make.
I still cant understand how they could be so arrogant and confident that they thought not having a plan when tackling an IP like star wars, wouldnt cause any problems.

In this case ,fans were also bitterly split ,so " listening to the fans " really depended on which fans they were listening to.

There was a ton of toxicity on both ends of the SW debate, with neither extreme of fandom being all that tolerate of differing views.

So Lucasfilm tried to do what they thought would please everyone. They were wrong obviously , and by TROS is was too late anyway to heal the fractured fandom.

 

[Blade Hoarder]

There was no reason 9 had to act as an end to the trilogy of trilogies.

Exactly. It’s marketing BS that they had to then work backwards to fulfill.

 

[Sian]

I agree with both of you. Why end the Skywalker story at all? They had already got a lot of success with spin offs featuring new characters, such as Rogue 1 and the Mandalorian. The Skywalker saga could have gone on infinitely following the lives of their descendants.

The only reason I can think is that they wanted to erase Lucas's legacy characters. But killing off their last heir and replacing him with a Palpatine is beyond belief - it's actually a slap in Lucas's face.

 

[Asharad]

they wanted to erase Lucas's legacy characters. But killing off their last heir and replacing him with a Palpatine is beyond belief - it's actually a slap in Lucas's face.

Yep.

 

[BatLobster]

I agree with both of you. Why end the Skywalker story at all? They had already got a lot of success with spin offs featuring new characters, such as Rogue 1 and the Mandalorian. The Skywalker saga could have gone on infinitely following the lives of their descendants.

Regardless of how the sequel trilogy turned out, I still am not a fan of that idea. Taking a story that had a great ending with ROTJ, and then just adding endless unnecessary chapters that follow a repetitive formula again and again, watered further and further down over time...bleh. Why do we need stories about Anakin's great great great great great grandkids? How many times do we need to see the same family at the center of the fate of the galaxy? It's hard to do that and not tell stories that pale in comparison to the story of Darth Vader and his son Luke anyway.

You are a fan of TLJ Sian, and if anything I think Rian's choices in the film were very much about addressing the endless cyclical nature of the conflict, and his choice to NOT make Rey a Skywalker seems to push hard against the notion of "let's just repeat the same story over and over forever."

I'm totally fine with spinoffs and new directions for the franchise, but the Skywalker story really needs to rest now. I'm glad there was at least an attempt to put it to rest.

 

[TheVileOne]

Regardless of how the sequel trilogy turned out, I still am not a fan of that idea. Taking a story that had a great ending with ROTJ, and then just adding endless unnecessary chapters that follow a repetitive formula again and again, watered further and further down over time...bleh. Why do we need stories about Anakin's great great great great great grandkids? How many times do we need to see the same family at the center of the fate of the galaxy? It's hard to do that and not tell stories that pale in comparison to the story of Darth Vader and his son Luke anyway.

You are a fan of TLJ Sian, and if anything I think Rian's choices in the film were very much about addressing the endless cyclical nature of the conflict, and his choice to NOT make Rey a Skywalker seems to push hard against the notion of "let's just repeat the same story over and over forever."

Now she's a Skywalker and a Palpatine

I mean if you keep making more movies and stories, that cycle is going to be there regardless of what characters it's built around.

 

[Sian]

Regardless of how the sequel trilogy turned out, I still am not a fan of that idea. Taking a story that had a great ending with ROTJ, and then just adding endless unnecessary chapters that follow a repetitive formula again and again, watered further and further down over time...bleh. Why do we need stories about Anakin's great great great great great grandkids? How many times do we need to see the same family at the center of the fate of the galaxy? It's hard to do that and not tell stories that pale in comparison to the story of Darth Vader and his son Luke anyway.

You are a fan of TLJ Sian, and if anything I think Rian's choices in the film were very much about addressing the endless cyclical nature of the conflict, and his choice to NOT make Rey a Skywalker seems to push hard against the notion of "let's just repeat the same story over and over forever."

I'm totally fine with spinoffs and new directions for the franchise, but the Skywalker story really needs to rest now. I'm glad there was at least an attempt to put it to rest.

Fair enough - but why kill the entire family off? And why make the 'hope of the galaxy' a Palpatine, for crying out loud? Sorry, but that was a ridiculous choice.

 

[Brother Jack]

The older generation passing the baton to the next pretty much necessitated they would die. As it was in the OT with Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin so it was with Han, Luke, and Leia.

 

[TheVileOne]

The older generation passing the baton to the next pretty much necessitated they would die. As it was in the OT with Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin so it was with Han, Luke, and Leia.

But Ben Solo is the new generation.

 

[Sian]

Yup, as well as the most interesting character in the ST and yet they severely cut AD's screentime and then killed his character off without even showing anyone mourning him - not even the FGs of his own family.
No wonder AD wants nothing to do with them anymore, can't say I blame him.

 

[TheVileOne]

Snap's own father didn't mourn him

 

[Sian]

Who was his father?

 

[Brother Jack]

But Ben Solo is the new generation.

Well in that case I don't think he should've been killed off. If he was going to be redeemed it would've been far more interesting to have him live in exile as penance for his crimes, an inverse of Vader instead of more or less the same exact thing.

 

[TheVileOne]

Well in that case I don't think he should've been killed off. If he was going to be redeemed it would've been far more interesting to have him live in exile as penance for his crimes, an inverse of Vader instead of more or less the same exact thing.

Make him Kenshin Himura in his post-Battousai the Manslayer days

Dude was a horrendous murderer and killer for an ugly war and now he's just wandering around helping protect people and refuses to kill. Keeps his lighstaber on training mode only, can't slice and dice

 

[Doctor Jones]

Make him Kenshin Himura in his post-Battousai the Manslayer days

Dude was a horrendous murderer and killer for an ugly war and now he's just wandering around helping protect people and refuses to kill. Keeps his lighstaber on training mode only, can't slice and dice

I agree. I'd love to see Kylo Ren do this to redeem himself.

Spoiler

 

[BatLobster]

Fair enough - but why kill the entire family off? And why make the 'hope of the galaxy' a Palpatine, for crying out loud? Sorry, but that was a ridiculous choice.

Because they wanted to do the very "you can choose your own destiny and family is bigger than bloodline" theme. That's the point. Fixating on the fact that she's a Palpatine kind of misses the point of that. They were going for dramatic irony. A force of good arising from the most unexpected of places.

You can not like it, of course. But would it really be a better story if she were a Kenobi? I don't think so, personally.

As far as killing the family off. Well, Harrison wanted Han to die, and it gave dramatic juice to Ben Solo's arc. Luke Skywalker dying in a heroic act of self-sacrifice was pretty much a no-brainer, it's what old Jedi Masters do in Star Wars films. I do believe Leia would've survived IX if Carrie Fischer had lived though. That one is unfortunate. But I really don't think the idea was "mwahaha let's kill off the originals!" out of some weird sense of spite and 'replacing' them. Inevitably the characters were going to be phased out one way or the other, and the saga is always about a new generation picking up the baton.

Now she's a Skywalker and a Palpatine

I mean if you keep making more movies and stories, that cycle is going to be there regardless of what characters it's built around.

I kinda wish they'd just stop, for real. But I bet in another 10 years or so...

 

[Sian]

They could have let Ben Solo live. But unfortunately he turned out to be more popular than their Mary Sue heroine.

 

[Sian]

I actually wonder if they should have made the ST about Ben Solo, then the characters of Finn and Rey could have had their own films, in spin offs like they did with Rogue One and Solo.

Rey was created as Ben Solo's replacement but unfortunately her character was so badly written she ended up irritating and dull. Finn could have been a fascinating character but again he was poorly written and ended up being Rey's comic relief sidekick.

I often wonder how essentially separating the characters would have worked out.

 

[BatLobster]

I actually wonder if they should have made the ST about Ben Solo, then the characters of Finn and Rey could have had their own films, in spin offs like they did with Rogue One and Solo.

Rey was created as Ben Solo's replacement but unfortunately her character was so badly written she ended up irritating and dull. Finn could have been a fascinating character but again he was poorly written and ended up being Rey's comic relief sidekick.

I often wonder how essentially separating the characters would have worked out.

Wait where are you getting the idea that Rey was created as Ben Solo's "replacement"? The ST was always to center around a female protagonist, even with Lucas' original ideas. Lucas' original idea involved "Kira" and a male co-protagonist (probably brother and sister) going on an adventure where the male takes a path to the dark side with the female being the hero/Jedi of the trilogy who would be trained by Luke. In this conception there was a villain called the Jedi Hunter, who was not supposed to be a Skywalker. Presumably the brothers/sister were Skywalkers, IE Lucas' "What happened to Darth Vader's grandchildren?" comment to JJ.

Kasdan/JJ created the character of Finn, which essentially replaced the original companion character to Rey/Kira, and then they turned the Jedi Hunter in Kylo Ren/Ben Solo. You can still see how the traces of this idea are in the finished product, with Ben Solo envisioned as a character on a dark side "quest".

The ideas changed a lot from what Lucas' original plan was, but the idea that Rey was created as Ben Solo's "replacement" is completely false. It's hard to say for sure without seeing more detailed outlines, but it looks like the original idea from Lucas was to set up Skywalker siblings (or cousins) on divergent paths to represent the light/dark of the Skywalker legacy. This is why your notion that somehow JJ hated Ben Solo is ridiculous-- he and Kasdan created that character. He did not exist in that form in Lucas' ideas. They combined two characters to give him a very meaty role. Which is why Finn got the short end of the stick, not having any connection to the Force side of the story (except a small nod to it in IX).

 

[Sian]

Wait where are you getting the idea that Rey was created as Ben Solo's "replacement"? The ST was always to center around a female protagonist, even with Lucas' original ideas. Lucas' original idea involved "Kira" and a male co-protagonist (probably brother and sister) going on an adventure where the male takes a path to the dark side with the female being the hero/Jedi of the trilogy who would be trained by Luke. In this conception there was a villain called the Jedi Hunter, who was not supposed to be a Skywalker. Presumably the brothers/sister were Skywalkers, IE Lucas' "What happened to Darth Vader's grandchildren?" comment to JJ.

Kasdan/JJ created the character of Finn, which essentially replaced the original companion character to Rey/Kira, and then they turned the Jedi Hunter in Kylo Ren/Ben Solo. You can still see how the traces of this idea are in the finished product, with Ben Solo envisioned as a character on a dark side "quest".

The ideas changed a lot from what Lucas' original plan was, but the idea that Rey was created as Ben Solo's "replacement" is completely false. It's hard to say for sure without seeing more detailed outlines, but it looks like the original idea from Lucas was to set up Skywalker siblings (or cousins) on divergent paths to represent the light/dark of the Skywalker legacy. This is why your notion that somehow JJ hated Ben Solo is ridiculous-- he and Kasdan created that character. He did not exist in that form in Lucas' ideas. They combined two characters to give him a very meaty role. Which is why Finn got the short end of the stick, not having any connection to the Force side of the story (except a small nod to it in IX).

Look at what Rey essentially 'inherits'

She gets Anakin's lightsabre. She gets the Millennium Falcon. She returns to Luke's former home on Tattooine. She is seen being proudly smiled upon by his mother and uncle. Ben is never mentioned again post his death. Not even a FG, but his family are seen giving Rey their blessings.

She takes the name Skywalker. Leia trains her.She did not train her own son. All the Jedi come to 'save' her at the end - including Anakin, who did toss all to help his own grandson while Snoke was preying on his mind.
In the novelisation of TROS Ben realises he's dying after saving Rey but decides it's worth his life as he will be 'giving Rey back to the galaxy'

In supplementary material Rey is said to have a 'special bond' with Chewie, and naturally, can speak Shiriwook. It's also said that 'Han saw her as his true heir'.

Rey may not have been conceived as Ben Solo's replacement, but that is exactly what she became. And sadly, it makes his family seem 'cold', who happily see this usurper as the 'perfect' heir to replace the broken man they neglected and eventually lost. This isn't the Han who died trying to save his son, or the Leia who insisted she wanted him back. TROS cemented the 'Rey replaces Ben' idea. She's even seen looking at the Binary sunset, which she have been reserved for the last REAL Skywalker. And post the film DLF are determined to hammer this home with their supplements.

Whatever Lucas intended, I very much doubt it was this.

 

[BatLobster]

Look at what Rey essentially 'inherits'

She gets Anakin's lightsabre. She gets the Millennium Falcon. She returns to Luke's former home on Tattooine. She is seen being proudly smiled upon by his mother and uncle. Ben is never mentioned again post his death. Not even a FG, but his family are seen giving Rey their blessings.

She takes the name Skywalker. Leia trains her.She did not train her own son. All the Jedi come to 'save' her at the end - including Anakin, who did toss all to help his own grandson while Snoke was preying on his mind.
In the novelisation of TROS Ben realises he's dying after saving Rey but decides it's worth his life as he will be 'giving Rey back to the galaxy'

In supplementary material Rey is said to have a 'special bond' with Chewie, and naturally, can speak Shiriwook. It's also said that 'Han saw her as his true heir'.

Rey may not have been conceived as Ben Solo's replacement, but that is exactly what she became. And sadly, it makes his family seem 'cold', who happily see this usurper as the 'perfect' heir to replace the broken man they neglected and eventually lost. This isn't the Han who died trying to save his son, or the Leia who insisted she wanted him back. TROS cemented the 'Rey replaces Ben' idea. She's even seen looking at the Binary sunset, which she have been reserved for the last REAL Skywalker. And post the film DLF are determined to hammer this home with their supplements.

Whatever Lucas intended, I very much doubt it was this.

I'm just pointing out that your attachment to Ben Solo as some sort of "rightful heir" that had something taken from him is based on nothing. Lucas probably doesn't approve of Ben Solo or Rey as they are. So it's all a moot point. Although it sounds like his idea was similar, only with the "Rey" character probably being a blood Skywalker. But talking about Ben Solo as if he was always just there waiting to be the hero of the next Star Wars trilogy, until Rey came along and snatched it all away from him is not a reality. The Ben Solo that we saw in the movies rejected all those things that Rey takes on. His relationship with his mother, father, Chewie, the Falcon Luke, the Jedi. He betrayed all of that. Yeah, sure you can say Snoke/Palpatine was influencing his mind, but that has always been a metaphor for giving into your worst instincts in Star Wars. Anakin was manipulated by Palpatine too, but it also doesn't take away the bad choices he made. To say that somehow Ben Solo deserved anything after making such terrible choices and contributing to so much damage to the galaxy doesn't add up. The only thing I'd say is he deserved is peace after deciding to try and right his wrongs and atone. Which he got. Regardless of whether his FG appeared at the end, his body disappeared with Leia, we know what that means. He's living on in spirit form one way or another. Not a bad deal.

But the fact is that the very conception of Ben Solo we saw for most of the trilogy is that of a self-pitying spoiled brat, who feels he's owed something because of his bloodline. Who ignores who his parents are and decides to only focus on the fact that Darth Vader was his grandfather and emulate that. Even if you want to entirely blame the temple incident on Luke, it doesn't change the fact that he consciously chose the dark path and killed his own father for no good reason other than to try and prove some sort of point to Snoke. He is not meant to be an aspirational character. Quite the opposite.

Although I agree I do think they laid it on a bit thick with Rey just conveniently fitting like a glove into all things Skywalker, the idea of a dark prince who rejects his family and an orphan girl from an enemy bloodline who ultimately takes the mantle isn't an inherently bad story to try and tell, even if I do think the ST struggled to tell that story as effectively as it could've. The message of choosing your own destiny and finding a family is pretty Star Wars-y. I mean before it was known that Luke and Leia were twins, Luke, Han and Leia were like family. Luke's aunt and uncle were gone, Leia's home world was destroyed, Han was always a loner with a mysterious past. The idea of these 3 finding each other against all odds and creating that special bond goes to the core of the appeal of Star Wars as much, if not more than the idea of a special bloodline that trumps everything.

Also, if Palpatine did have something to do with creating Anakin (as is popularly believed now), you could see that Rey actually is a Skywalker in the sense that they share a common ancestor. From a certain point of view of course.

 

[Sian]

I wish people would stop seeing Ben Solo as a 'spoiled brat'. The TLJ novel described him as anything but, as did quite a few other supplementary materials. He didn't 'reject' anyone - they rejected him. Han was afraid of him, Leia left him with serving droids because her New Republic took up all her time, and he was packed off to the equivalent of a space monastery when he was ten, by a mother TROS now reveals was perfectly capable of training her own child herself.

I'm not saying Ben Solo was a saint - of course not. But...the makers of the ST want us to believe Rey is.
Her character has been bumped up to ridiculous levels. She is no longer a relatable human being - she's a goddess. Yet when you look at her behaviour throughout the entire trilogy, she is every bit as angry and filled with hate as Anakin and Ben were. But we never actually saw her experience the repercussions of her actions.
She destroyed the ship carrying Chewie with Force lightning - then it's revealed that it was the wrong ship. So Saint Rey of course, is exonerated from killing her friend.
She stabs her opponent through the guts when he's unarmed. But that's all well and good because Terrio and Abrams had already introduced Rey's gift for Force healing, so she gets a pass at that as well.
Unlike Luke, who goes through hell and back in the OT everything practically falls into Rey's lap. And finally...ta dah! She is now not only 'all the Jedi' but all the Skywalkers. And the only 'penance' she has to do is a five minute pep talk with Luke.

Ridley's natural charm is what endears her character to the audience, but ultimately it's Rey's only saving grace. Because sadly her character is an empty third rate copy of Luke. And I was terribly disappointed the ST's female protagonist turned out so dull. How I wish she could have been written more like Jyn Erso,

 

[BatLobster]

I wish people would stop seeing Ben Solo as a 'spoiled brat'. The TLJ novel described him as anything but, as did quite a few other supplementary materials. He didn't 'reject' anyone - they rejected him. Han was afraid of him, Leia left him with serving droids because her New Republic took up all her time, and he was packed off to the equivalent of a space monastery when he was ten, by a mother TROS now reveals was perfectly capable of training her own child herself.

So murdering his father who was trying to reconcile with him in good faith wasn't a rejection?

 

[fan4stic]

I wish people would stop seeing Ben Solo as a 'spoiled brat'. The TLJ novel described him as anything but, as did quite a few other supplementary materials. He didn't 'reject' anyone - they rejected him. Han was afraid of him, Leia left him with serving droids because her New Republic took up all her time, and he was packed off to the equivalent of a space monastery when he was ten, by a mother TROS now reveals was perfectly capable of training her own child herself.

None of that is in the movie. Not a single explored lick of it.

I also think it's a not strong origin for Kylo to do what he does.

 

[fan4stic]

I'm not saying Ben Solo was a saint - of course not. But...the makers of the ST want us to believe Rey is.
Her character has been bumped up to ridiculous levels. She is no longer a relatable human being - she's a goddess. Yet when you look at her behaviour throughout the entire trilogy, she is every bit as angry and filled with hate as Anakin and Ben were. But we never actually saw her experience the repercussions of her actions.
She destroyed the ship carrying Chewie with Force lightning - then it's revealed that it was the wrong ship. So Saint Rey of course, is exonerated from killing her friend.
She stabs her opponent through the guts when he's unarmed. But that's all well and good because Terrio and Abrams had already introduced Rey's gift for Force healing, so she gets a pass at that as well.
Unlike Luke, who goes through hell and back in the OT everything practically falls into Rey's lap. And finally...ta dah! She is now not only 'all the Jedi' but all the Skywalkers. And the only 'penance' she has to do is a five minute pep talk with Luke.

Ah, but you're missing 1 vital detail: I don't care. Rey may be angry, but if I got angry at a character being angry, I'd be fairly stressed out. Also, Rey has never angrily murdered several, like Anakin had. Or done what Kylo has done.

Even if Chewie hadn't lived, Rey's actions also wouldn't have, necessarily, been on purpose, I think.

Even the Kylo stab is in the heat of battle and striking at her opponent who has hurt her and people she cares about. It doesn't make her right, but I can see a situation of doing it.

I think Rey isn't a well written character, similarly.