The Rise of Skywalker JJ Abrams is Writing and Directing Episode IX

[BatLobster]

I've never heard him criticize Rian Johnson. In fact, he makes it sound like the decisions in Last Jedi were Disney's decisions and not Johnson's.

I think if you read between the lines, he's not overly thrilled with TLJ and Rian. Maybe he's being polite enough not to throw him completely under the bus...but yeah. Things like this kind of give it away.

While speaking to the outlet, Boyega revealed that "the story just wasn't there" for his character, though he praised director Rian Johnson for putting his stamp on the franchise.


"What I was excited by was, I liked the idea of Rian having his own take on something that was quite important," Boyega said. "And I liked the idea of these characters being challenged and separated and stressed like everyone's just trying to get to each other. That excited me."

He added, "But I will be honest in saying and I think that they could have done better with it, especially with Finn and Rose. You know, as a black person, you're going to feel a big type of weight. You had nothing to do with Rey and Kylo... the story just wasn't here for me with Finn and Rose. I definitely enjoyed- I didn't notice that on set, it was only when I watched it. But I enjoyed the experience of making it."

This is not the first time Boyega has spoken about his thoughts on Star Wars: The Last Jedi, telling HypeBeast earlier this month that he didn't agree with some of the choices made in the film.

"The Force Awakens I think was the beginning of something quite solid, The Last Jedi if I'm being honest I'd say that was feeling a bit iffy for me," Boyega said. "I didn't necessarily agree with a lot of the choices in that and that's something that I spoke to Mark [Hamill] a lot about and we had conversations about it. And it was hard for all of us, because we were separated."

I mean he softens it by saying "They", but he begins that same thought by saying "I was excited about Rian having his own take but..."

It's glaringly obvious IMO that he was not the biggest fan of Johnson's vision.

 

[henzINNIT]

I think if you read between the lines, he's not overly thrilled with TLJ and Rian. Maybe he's being polite enough not to throw him completely under the bus...but yeah. Things like this kind of give it away.



I mean he softens it by saying "They", but he begins that same thought by saying "I was excited about Rian having his own take but..."

It's glaringly obvious IMO that he was not the biggest fan of Johnson's vision.

Thanks for digging these up. I had seen pieces of these but some of it is new.

I totally get being disappointed by Finn's development in TLJ. That said, he closed that film loyal to the cause and further along his path into rebel hero. All 9 had to do to complete his arc was something heroic. It under-delivered.

 

[TheVileOne]

I think if you read between the lines, he's not overly thrilled with TLJ and Rian. Maybe he's being polite enough not to throw him completely under the bus...but yeah. Things like this kind of give it away.





I mean he softens it by saying "They", but he begins that same thought by saying "I was excited about Rian having his own take but..."

It's glaringly obvious IMO that he was not the biggest fan of Johnson's vision.

So basically he was fine with everything while making the film and during the script and production stage he didn't raise any issues.

 

[Brother Jack]

Thanks for digging these up. I had seen pieces of these but some of it is new.

I totally get being disappointed by Finn's development in TLJ. That said, he closed that film loyal to the cause and further along his path into rebel hero. All 9 had to do to complete his arc was something heroic. It under-delivered.

It's mind boggling how poorly he was handled in TROS. His role was virtually non-existent.

The thing about Finn is that the idea of the character was so brilliant and neither Abrams nor Johnson ever took full advantage of it. It was a radical move to unmask a Stormtrooper and humanize him, opening up the implication for the whole First Order to be humanized in a way the Empire never was. But Abrams backed down from going there, instead having Finn immediately go from conscript to enthusiastically blowing away his former comrades with his new best friend Poe. I get that this is a fun space adventure that doesn't necessarily have to be exploring themes of PTSD or something, but it was a new (for the films) and deeper idea that needed more thoughtful treatment.

 

[TheVileOne]

It's mind boggling how poorly he was handled in TROS. His role was virtually non-existent.

The thing about Finn is that the idea of the character was so brilliant and neither Abrams nor Johnson ever took full advantage of it. It was a radical move to unmask a Stormtrooper and humanize him, opening up the implication for the whole First Order to be humanized in a way the Empire never was. But Abrams backed down from going there, instead having Finn immediately go from conscript to enthusiastically blowing away his former comrades with his new best friend Poe. I get that this is a fun space adventure that doesn't necessarily have to be exploring themes of PTSD or something, but it was a new (for the films) and deeper idea that needed more thoughtful treatment.

Poorly handled by JJ Abrams and Chris Terrio...but that's Disney's fault I guess.

All they needed was a few lines of dialogue about how Finn's defection spread among the soldiers in the first movie and inspired them. The First Order literally kidnapped children and forcefully conscripted them into their ranks. The idea of many of them defecting makes sense and was worthy of some mild exploration.

 

[Sian]

Kylo had less screen time than Rey OR Finn in TROS; TROS was the film where the makers hammered home that REY REY REY was the hero of the story and no one else mattered.

 

[henzINNIT]

Finn causing defectors was so obviously his trajectory. There are a bunch of ways you could bring that to fruition in the last film. TROS had the worst possible take on it, with barely any time spent on it and even less impact to the story. It blows my mind still. You have a war where the opposition's army are enslaved, brainwashed people. The resolution to that is clear.

 

[BatLobster]

So basically he was fine with everything while making the film and during the script and production stage he didn't raise any issues.

Let's be real. He wasn't gonna rock the boat while they were still in the middle of making the trilogy. I mean when you have Mark Hamill openly telling Rian Johnson he hates the direction for Luke, yet having 0 influence, it's clear Boyega wasn't going to get anywhere by voicing his issues-- not to mention we have no idea what types of discussions he may have had with Johnson.

I think 2020 happened, and he just said "f*** it". And started saying what he really felt.

 

[fan4stic]

I totally get being disappointed by Finn's development in TLJ. That said, he closed that film loyal to the cause and further along his path into rebel hero. All 9 had to do to complete his arc was something heroic. It under-delivered.

I think that getting there was a needlessly roundabout concept that could've already been fulfilled as a character arc.

Finn causing defectors was so obviously his trajectory. There are a bunch of ways you could bring that to fruition in the last film. TROS had the worst possible take on it, with barely any time spent on it and even less impact to the story. It blows my mind still. You have a war where the opposition's army are enslaved, brainwashed people. The resolution to that is clear.

I think they could've. But would it be a natural development after TLJ almost never touched on the personal emotions of the character being a stormtrooper or how he feels about other stormtroopers, or what's done to them, in general? I think those things could've been explored in TLJ, but they weren't.

 

[henzINNIT]

I think that getting there was a needlessly roundabout concept that could've already been fulfilled as a character arc.

Sure Finn could have started TLJ a little closer to a hero. Johnson's take was fair though and clearly built on TFA, which constantly undercut Finn's actions with goofy humour and childish wants.

I think they could've. But would it be a natural development after TLJ almost never touched on the personal emotions of the character being a stormtrooper or how he feels about other stormtroopers, or what's done to them, in general? I think those things could've been explored in TLJ, but they weren't.

Yes completely natural development. Finn was a defecting trooper who wanted out in TFA, who learned that there's nowhere to run and the reason to fight in TLJ. It stands to reason that his final appearance would Finn fighting that fight, and that his unique experiences would be key to his success.

TLJ had Finn learn that evil was not contained to the battlefield. Rose demonstrated that to him in Canto Bight. She then tells him not to fight what he hates, but save what he loves. That is perfect set-up for him to then see the good amongst evil's ranks and save them. It's beyond natural development to me, it's the obvious conclusion to what 7 and 8 were doing.

 

[TheVileOne]

Sure Finn could have started TLJ a little closer to a hero. Johnson's take was fair though and clearly built on TFA, which constantly undercut Finn's actions with goofy humour and childish wants.

What are childish wants?

Let's be real. He wasn't gonna rock the boat while they were still in the middle of making the trilogy. I mean when you have Mark Hamill openly telling Rian Johnson he hates the direction for Luke, yet having 0 influence, it's clear Boyega wasn't going to get anywhere by voicing his issues-- not to mention we have no idea what types of discussions he may have had with Johnson.

I think 2020 happened, and he just said "f*** it". And started saying what he really felt.

Why not?

 

[henzINNIT]

What are childish wants?

Joining a desperate mission to stop a super weapon so he can save a girl he likes. And not killing two birds with one stone. He's not interested in the mission. He explicitly states that he is just interested in saving Rey. In fact he misleads the Resistance in order to get there and only tells them he worked sanitation after they had arrived.

 

[BatLobster]

Why not?

He was a fresh young actor thrust into the hugest franchise in the world. Again, if Mark Hamill is just a cog in the machine who had 0 creative say, what are the chances that Boyega gets listened to? I can't claim to see inside the guy's head, but I don't think these are the biggest leaps. Especially with him saying he and Mark Hamill talked frankly about their disagreements with TLJ's direction during the shoot. In other words he was confiding with a co-star privately rather than picking a fight with the director.

Again, I'm not saying this is some great injustice. End of the day Boyega still got massive exposure and an opportunity any actor would kill for. But it's not unrealistic to think he wasn't thrilled about his character's direction in TLJ and just kind of played nice and did his job at the time.

Joining a desperate mission to stop a super weapon so he can save a girl he likes. And not killing two birds with one stone. He's not interested in the mission. He explicitly states that he is just interested in saving Rey. In fact he misleads the Resistance in order to get there and only tells them he worked sanitation after they had arrived.

That moment completely sets up his arc in TLJ whether people admit it or not. I think it would actually be bad storytelling on multiple levels if Finn woke up from that coma, and was suddenly a committed Rebel.

 

[fan4stic]

Sure Finn could have started TLJ a little closer to a hero. Johnson's take was fair though and clearly built on TFA, which constantly undercut Finn's actions with goofy humour and childish wants.

I don't think it was fair and I think TLJ also undercut the character, not just with goofy humor, but in also having the character need to be talked at about the evils of war profiteering and such, which mean nothing to whether or not he fights against the first order.

Yes completely natural development. Finn was a defecting trooper who wanted out in TFA, who learned that there's nowhere to run and the reason to fight in TLJ. It stands to reason that his final appearance would Finn fighting that fight, and that his unique experiences would be key to his success.

He was given no more reason to fight in TLJ than he had in TFA. Considering TLJ almost never used that as apart of his character, I don't agree that it would be completely natural.

TLJ had Finn learn that evil was not contained to the battlefield. Rose demonstrated that to him in Canto Bight. She then tells him not to fight what he hates, but save what he loves. That is perfect set-up for him to then see the good amongst evil's ranks and save them. It's beyond natural development to me, it's the obvious conclusion to what 7 and 8 were doing.

And learning that means nothing to whether or not he fights. And save what he loves angle has no meaning, as Finn was never built up to hate the first order. Again if it wanted to naturally develop that, it could've showed the character think about, talk about and/or try to take action in regards to the stormtrooper angle. I think it doesn't.

Joining a desperate mission to stop a super weapon so he can save a girl he likes. And not killing two birds with one stone. He's not interested in the mission. He explicitly states that he is just interested in saving Rey. In fact he misleads the Resistance in order to get there and only tells them he worked sanitation after they had arrived.

Finn does end up helping, against the interest of getting Rey. His misleading of the resistance doesn't change anything in that regard, as, if he did nothing, they'd have no way of doing things anyway.

That moment completely sets up his arc in TLJ whether people admit it or not. I think it would actually be bad storytelling on multiple levels if Finn woke up from that coma, and was suddenly a committed Rebel.

Why are people so obsessed with Finn becoming a rebel, in another cheap, needlessly extended retread of Han's arc from ANH? Finn becoming a rebel doesn't have to be the character's trajectory. That doesn't mean it makes sense for the character to have no regard for anything other than Rey at that point, after he'd bonded with Poe and Han, and I think was shown to be angry at Han's death, and stand up and fight Kylo. He can be against the first order and want to fight them and not be a rebel. I think that's lame and uninteresting and not doing new things with characters.

 

[BatLobster]

Why are people so obsessed with Finn becoming a rebel, in another cheap, needlessly extended retread of Han's arc from ANH? Finn becoming a rebel doesn't have to be the character's trajectory. That doesn't mean it makes sense for the character to have no regard for anything other than Rey at that point, after he'd bonded with Poe and Han, and I think was shown to be angry at Han's death, and stand up and fight Kylo. He can be against the first order and want to fight them and not be a rebel. I think that's lame and uninteresting and not doing new things with characters.

That's fair, but I mean...then why start him off as a Stormtrooper? If you're going to tell a story about someone who defects from the bad guys to become one of the good guys, then it just seems to make sense to lean into that and explore that grey area in between where has hasn't really figured out what he's all about. I'm just saying that the way TFA left him off, I never bought that he was a fully formed character who suddenly had clarity on what mattered to him in the big picture. Not saying it's the only way his story could've gone, but TFA didn't do a great job giving him a complete arc where I bought any sort of full transformation. Arguably his biggest transformation occurred within the first 5 minutes of the film when he decides not to follow his orders.

He fought Kylo because he was protecting Rey and it was either that or run at that point. I guess you could say in TFA part of his arc is gaining some courage. But he also has this cynical streak in him where he just believes that the odds are too overwhelming against The First Order and it's a losing battle (which is a far cry from Han's "never tell me the odds" cockiness too). I just think TFA did a poor job illustrating whatever the point of Finn's story was supposed to be, to be frank. There are traces of...things...but it doesn't really add up anything truly coherent IMO. And then he's left in a coma. Just some weird choices there IMO.

I actually thought the angle in TLJ where Finn is seen as this selfless hero of the Resistance, when in reality he's still not actually that guy yet was an interesting touch that at least seemed to align with where we left off-- which is a disconnect between how Finn's actions are perceived vs. him being kind of a mess in reality. Rose meeting Finn with this mythology built up in her head of him and then getting the rug pulled out from under her is a nice little thematic parallel with the disillusioned Luke that Rey meets in the film.

People can say what they will about TLJ, but I still feel that movie is way more thematically tightly wound and purposeful with what it was doing than TFA was, which just kind of felt like a smattering of Star Wars-y things thrown together.

 

[Sian]

My favourite of the ST, notice the hints at the end:

Luke to Kylo:
'The war has just begun - we see Finn, foreshadowing him as the instigator of a stormtrooper rebellion
'The Resistance is reborn tonight' - we see Poe in the foreground, Leia in the background, foreshadowing his new role as leader

And...people say 'Kylo had regressed'....yet our final scene of Kylo is a sad, lonely character with Hux watching him like a predator smelling blood.

I really wish RJ had directed TROS, I would have loved to see where he would have taken the characters.

 

[henzINNIT]

That moment completely sets up his arc in TLJ whether people admit it or not. I think it would actually be bad storytelling on multiple levels if Finn woke up from that coma, and was suddenly a committed Rebel.

Agreed. Most of my supporting evidence are jokes, so I expect the effect was somewhat accidental. But Johnson identified it and with sound reasoning.

People can say what they will about TLJ, but I still feel that movie is way more thematically tightly wound and purposeful with what it was doing than TFA was, which just kind of felt like a smattering of Star Wars-y things thrown together.

As time passes I have more respect for TLJ for what it was doing. Despite regularly being slated for killing the story, I think it does a really good job at both building off of TFA and lining things up for the last installment. Rian Johnson got the thankless task of trying to turn this thing into a trilogy about something, after 7 basically played the greatest hits.

By contrast, TROS was like someone spoiled JJ's magic trick. His ideas are aging like bread, and the high of TFA in hindsight looks like the powerful effect of our own imaginations. There was so much potential then, because Abrams had done basically nothing.

I don't think it was fair and I think TLJ also undercut the character, not just with goofy humor, but in also having the character need to be talked at about the evils of war profiteering and such, which mean nothing to whether or not he fights against the first order.

I would have also preferred Finn was less goofy, but he's that way in TFA and TLJ follows suit.

I'd argue he did need to learn something about the evils of the First Order. When he defected, Finn's choice was to run away from the fight. He needed to learn that this evil will be everywhere, that even the fanciest places have evil festering under the surface. He needed to learn that avoiding the fight isn't neutral and isn't enough for him.

He was given no more reason to fight in TLJ than he had in TFA.

Sure he was. He learned more about and experienced more of the First Order's deeds, and established more connections with the Resistance.

Considering TLJ almost never used that as apart of his character, I don't agree that it would be completely natural.

Finn's defining attribute is that he is a defecting Stormtrooper. He's a walking billboard for it where ever he goes. His reputation within the Resistance is shown through Rose, and likewise he's infamous in the First Order. Finn's arc is to finish his transition from one faction to the other. I don't see how that is 'almost never' using it.

And learning that means nothing to whether or not he fights. And save what he loves angle has no meaning, as Finn was never built up to hate the first order. Again if it wanted to naturally develop that, it could've showed the character think about, talk about and/or try to take action in regards to the stormtrooper angle. I think it doesn't.

Sadly we agree that Rose's words had no meaning in the end. But that is an issue with 9. I think saving what we love was an easy set-up for defeating a fascist regime, especially considering those brainwashed, abducted children. Finn didn't need more reasons to hate the First Order. Their evil is obvious and he hated them all along.

Finn does end up helping, against the interest of getting Rey. His misleading of the resistance doesn't change anything in that regard, as, if he did nothing, they'd have no way of doing things anyway.

What choices or actions does he make that weren't serving his goal of protecting Rey?

Why are people so obsessed with Finn becoming a rebel, in another cheap, needlessly extended retread of Han's arc from ANH? inn becoming a rebel doesn't have to be the character's trajectory. That doesn't mean it makes sense for the character to have no regard for anything other than Rey at that point, after he'd bonded with Poe and Han, and I think was shown to be angry at Han's death, and stand up and fight Kylo. He can be against the first order and want to fight them and not be a rebel. I think that's lame and uninteresting and not doing new things with characters.

No-one is obsessed with that. It's just a reasonable decision to make after episode 7.

Why would Han's death inspire Finn to fight? He's seen plenty of people die at the hands of the First Order. He bonded with Poe and was even named by him, and suspecting him dead did nothing.

I don't think he could be against the First Order, want to fight them, and not be a rebel. It's not the situation where you're choosing factions. Resisting the hostile takeover makes him a rebel. That is the conflict of the trilogy, the Republic is wiped out and there is no-one else in the fight.

 

[fan4stic]

As time passes I have more respect for TLJ for what it was doing. Despite regularly being slated for killing the story, I think it does a really good job at both building off of TFA and lining things up for the last installment. Rian Johnson got the thankless task of trying to turn this thing into a trilogy about something, after 7 basically played the greatest hits.

By contrast, TROS was like someone spoiled JJ's magic trick. His ideas are aging like bread, and the high of TFA in hindsight looks like the powerful effect of our own imaginations. There was so much potential then, because Abrams had done basically nothing.

I think it basically halts the story needless to basically only account for some themes and only to have 2 things really be different character and story wise, everything else being arbitrary. I've had the opinion, for some time, that, no matter what the 9th movie was, it'd have to basically soft reboot the story, for it to matter. If Trevarrows draft is legit, I think that aligns, from I've read and/or heard. The issue is how you do it. I think Trevorrow's tries harder to connect with the previous, but still is basically soft rebooting the characters directions. I think JJ's is more shoulder shrugging.

I think I can blame both.

I would have also preferred Finn was less goofy, but he's that way in TFA and TLJ follows suit.

I'd argue he did need to learn something about the evils of the First Order. When he defected, Finn's choice was to run away from the fight. He needed to learn that this evil will be everywhere, that even the fanciest places have evil festering under the surface. He needed to learn that avoiding the fight isn't neutral and isn't enough for him.

It didn't have to. Finn had some funny scenes in TFA, but he ended off in a dramatic place. TLJ is the movie that drove him back into that from the jump.

There's no reason for the character to have ever thought that otherwise. And he certainly doesn't learn anything new that would drive that response anything more than what he'd already learned.

Sure he was. He learned more about and experienced more of the First Order's deeds, and established more connections with the Resistance.

Nothing that he learned was any more than what he'd known of before. He already connections with the resistance. Connecting with 1 person means no more than the 2 people he connected with before.

Finn's defining attribute is that he is a defecting Stormtrooper. He's a walking billboard for it where ever he goes. His reputation within the Resistance is shown through Rose, and likewise he's infamous in the First Order. Finn's arc is to finish his transition from one faction to the other. I don't see how that is 'almost never' using it.

But that's not something the character, as a person, connects with. That's about Rose and apparently her sister, not about Finn and certainly not about how other stormtroopers feel about. That means nothing to how Finn's character feels about it, which isn't built on.

Sadly we agree that Rose's words had no meaning in the end. But that is an issue with 9. I think saving what we love was an easy set-up for defeating a fascist regime, especially considering those brainwashed, abducted children. Finn didn't need more reasons to hate the First Order. Their evil is obvious and he hated them all along.

It didn't have meaning, even then, as him hating the FO is never something TLJ built up, personally. It doesn't really develop any feeling for him against the FO. The only time that comes into play is at the end. A has a nothing resolution, as Finn has already sought to fight to save what he cares about, so her lesson has no point or meaning to him, now.

What choices or actions does he make that weren't serving his goal of protecting Rey?

The very fact that he helps Han, instead of serving the interesting of just getting Rey, I think is a showcase of that. Even him turning back, after he sees starkiller fire, I think is.

No-one is obsessed with that. It's just a reasonable decision to make after episode 7.

Why would Han's death inspire Finn to fight? He's seen plenty of people die at the hands of the First Order. He bonded with Poe and was even named by him, and suspecting him dead did nothing.

I don't think he could be against the First Order, want to fight them, and not be a rebel. It's not the situation where you're choosing factions. Resisting the hostile takeover makes him a rebel. That is the conflict of the trilogy, the Republic is wiped out and there is no-one else in the fight.

I think it's a repetitive and needless decision.

Why wouldn't it? The movie shows them connect, and I think makes a point to show him get angry at his death, and even intercuts between Finn looking down at Kylo and Kylo looking up at them and shows it so Rey grabbing him being the reason Finn leaves that situation. Finn and Poe had far less time, like basically minutes at the beginning. Later on, however, they've had more time, after Finn realizes he's alive. There's no reason for Finn, after all that, to still run away, certainly no less than by the end of TLJ.

He absolutely can. Being a rebel isn't the end all, be all, and the rebel angle in general is repetitive. The character can go off and be a roguish character, who seeks to bring down the first order with the constraints of the resistance and their orders. His story in TLJ could've been breaking into a stormtrooper training facility and seeing kids being brought in and trying to rescue them.

 

[fan4stic]

That's fair, but I mean...then why start him off as a Stormtrooper? If you're going to tell a story about someone who defects from the bad guys to become one of the good guys, then it just seems to make sense to lean into that and explore that grey area in between where has hasn't really figured out what he's all about. I'm just saying that the way TFA left him off, I never bought that he was a fully formed character who suddenly had clarity on what mattered to him in the big picture. Not saying it's the only way his story could've gone, but TFA didn't do a great job giving him a complete arc where I bought any sort of full transformation. Arguably his biggest transformation occurred within the first 5 minutes of the film when he decides not to follow his orders.

Why does someone have to be a rebel to be a heroic character? It's a repeat.

He fought Kylo because he was protecting Rey and it was either that or run at that point. I guess you could say in TFA part of his arc is gaining some courage. But he also has this cynical streak in him where he just believes that the odds are too overwhelming against The First Order and it's a losing battle (which is a far cry from Han's "never tell me the odds" cockiness too). I just think TFA did a poor job illustrating whatever the point of Finn's story was supposed to be, to be frank. There are traces of...things...but it doesn't really add up anything truly coherent IMO. And then he's left in a coma. Just some weird choices there IMO.

I think, based on everything the movie presents, Finn is given reasons to want to be against them.

I actually thought the angle in TLJ where Finn is seen as this selfless hero of the Resistance, when in reality he's still not actually that guy yet was an interesting touch that at least seemed to align with where we left off-- which is a disconnect between how Finn's actions are perceived vs. him being kind of a mess in reality. Rose meeting Finn with this mythology built up in her head of him and then getting the rug pulled out from under her is a nice little thematic parallel with the disillusioned Luke that Rey meets in the film.

People can say what they will about TLJ, but I still feel that movie is way more thematically tightly wound and purposeful with what it was doing than TFA was, which just kind of felt like a smattering of Star Wars-y things thrown together.

But there's no reason for Finn to be seen that way is the issue, particularly in the short time frame between TFA and TLJ.

I don't have much regard for, what I think is, themes taking priority over character sense and direction and story. I at least think character's actions aren't stupid in TFA.

 

[TheVileOne]

Finn starting out as a Stormtrooper was a fresh take IMO and the best thing about the character. A good starting point.

I think maybe the problem was that the trilogy ultimately turned this into a Rebellion, when it really probably should've been the New Republic versus an enemy that could topple their hard fought peace. But it's a battle weary New Republic that is hesitant to start another military conflict again and is still shell-shocked from the Empire and Civil War.

So the New Republic is still definitively in power. Destroying the whole senate in fleet in the first movie and doing it so non-chalantly was a bad move. It basically reset the status quo back.

 

[Sian]

Finn starting out as a Stormtrooper was a fresh take IMO and the best thing about the character. A good starting point.

I think maybe the problem was that the trilogy ultimately turned this into a Rebellion, when it really probably should've been the New Republic versus an enemy that could topple their hard fought peace. But it's a battle weary New Republic that is hesitant to start another military conflict again and is still shell-shocked from the Empire and Civil War.

So the New Republic is still definitively in power. Destroying the whole senate in fleet in the first movie and doing it so non-chalantly was a bad move. It basically reset the status quo back.

Actually, it would have been refreshing for the Republic to be the 'good guys' and the 'bad guys' an insurgent group supported by former Imperial allies because we would have the OT heroes on the 'opposite' side so to speak.
I also would have liked to have seen two sides that were more 'shades of grey' rather than out and out 'one side evil, one side good'. I think that might have been the direction Johnson was taking - he made Kylo more sympathetic and DJ show that the Resistance bought their weapons from the same arms dealers as the FO. Also, Poe was shown as a bit of a big head who got half his squad killed needlessly, the so called New Republic allowed the enslavement of children, and in the novel of the film Captain Cannady was described as a man anxious to bring his TIE pilots home safely.
I still am genuinely surprised at how many Finn fans disliked his character arc in TLJ. In TFA he was 'trying to run'; as pointed out here he only went to Starkiller to save Rey and that was where he was at the beginning of TLJ. The film showed him gradually changing from someone who just wanted to escape to a committed rebel; it showed his courage but also his future potential as a leader - he even gives the surviving rebels a pep talk. Poe meanwhile was at his best as a guy who finally matured into a leader.
TFA presented Anakin's lightsabre as a kind of Excalibur, that went to Rey at the end as if she was 'more worthy'. Johnson then hinted that she was perhaps not as saintly as she seemed, because when both she and Kylo reached for the weapon - it split. This seemed to hint that NEITHER of them were 'worthy', that they both needed to change. It was why out of all of the ST films Rey was at her best in TLJ - a flawed young woman who tended to act impulsively without thinking things through.
TLJ broke new ground, and I am so very sad that DLF and Abrams threw it all away for a third rate rehash of ROTJ. Throughout most of TROS all I thought was: 'We have seen all this before'.

 

[henzINNIT]

I think it basically halts the story needless to basically only account for some themes and only to have 2 things really be different character and story wise, everything else being arbitrary. I've had the opinion, for some time, that, no matter what the 9th movie was, it'd have to basically soft reboot the story, for it to matter. If Trevarrows draft is legit, I think that aligns, from I've read and/or heard. The issue is how you do it. I think Trevorrow's tries harder to connect with the previous, but still is basically soft rebooting the characters directions. I think JJ's is more shoulder shrugging.

I think I can blame both.It didn't have to. Finn had some funny scenes in TFA, but he ended off in a dramatic place. TLJ is the movie that drove him back into that from the jump.

There's no reason for the character to have ever thought that otherwise. And he certainly doesn't learn anything new that would drive that response anything more than what he'd already learned.Nothing that he learned was any more than what he'd known of before. He already connections with the resistance. Connecting with 1 person means no more than the 2 people he connected with before.But that's not something the character, as a person, connects with. That's about Rose and apparently her sister, not about Finn and certainly not about how other stormtroopers feel about. That means nothing to how Finn's character feels about it, which isn't built on.It didn't have meaning, even then, as him hating the FO is never something TLJ built up, personally. It doesn't really develop any feeling for him against the FO. The only time that comes into play is at the end. A has a nothing resolution, as Finn has already sought to fight to save what he cares about, so her lesson has no point or meaning to him, now.The very fact that he helps Han, instead of serving the interesting of just getting Rey, I think is a showcase of that. Even him turning back, after he sees starkiller fire, I think is.I think it's a repetitive and needless decision.

Why wouldn't it? The movie shows them connect, and I think makes a point to show him get angry at his death, and even intercuts between Finn looking down at Kylo and Kylo looking up at them and shows it so Rey grabbing him being the reason Finn leaves that situation. Finn and Poe had far less time, like basically minutes at the beginning. Later on, however, they've had more time, after Finn realizes he's alive. There's no reason for Finn, after all that, to still run away, certainly no less than by the end of TLJ.

He absolutely can. Being a rebel isn't the end all, be all, and the rebel angle in general is repetitive. The character can go off and be a roguish character, who seeks to bring down the first order with the constraints of the resistance and their orders. His story in TLJ could've been breaking into a stormtrooper training facility and seeing kids being brought in and trying to rescue them.

Your Finn views seem really inconsistent to me. On one hand, you think Finn freeing his fellow soldiers would not be a natural evolution after 8, nor is Finn's story natural in 8. On the other hand, you're suggesting Finn should never have been Resistance affiliated at all, despite everyone he's fond of being there; which would have been a massive left-turn after 7.

You say Finn's experiences in 8, his developed relationships with Poe and Rose and their side are worthless because it's just one more person in the pile and has no impact. You say 8 didn't provide Finn enough reason for change. Then you say Han Solo was significant enough to him that his death triggered an invisible character arc in Finn that occurred in 7.

We agree that Finn was under-utilized. But reading your arguments, it's clear that you've had your conclusion that TLJ broke everything for some time, because it looks like you're working backwards from that belief. The notion that TLJ couldn't be followed without a 'soft reboot' is patently wrong. DOTF was not a soft reboot at all. Even TROS, when it wasn't squirming around for audience approval and contradicting itself, was a sequel.

Finn starting out as a Stormtrooper was a fresh take IMO and the best thing about the character. A good starting point.

I think maybe the problem was that the trilogy ultimately turned this into a Rebellion, when it really probably should've been the New Republic versus an enemy that could topple their hard fought peace. But it's a battle weary New Republic that is hesitant to start another military conflict again and is still shell-shocked from the Empire and Civil War.

So the New Republic is still definitively in power. Destroying the whole senate in fleet in the first movie and doing it so non-chalantly was a bad move. It basically reset the status quo back.

I would agree with this. It seemed like some kind of mandate to get right back to that Rebel/Empire dynamic. They couldn't even wait until the New Republic was destroyed to establish the Resistance.

I think the overall story was hurt somewhat by the decision. The victory in 6 lasted 30 years, but it's hard to feel that when we got absolutely no time to see peace and prosperity. TFA is quietly a kind of hopeless film, because it reset things so hard that it felt like truly nothing had changed. The ST might have gone down better if was more about protecting/restoring those achievements.

 

[Sian]

Unfortunately 'resets' are Abrams' speciality; look at the Star Trek films.

 

[BatLobster]

I would agree with this. It seemed like some kind of mandate to get right back to that Rebel/Empire dynamic. They couldn't even wait until the New Republic was destroyed to establish the Resistance.

I think the overall story was hurt somewhat by the decision. The victory in 6 lasted 30 years, but it's hard to feel that when we got absolutely no time to see peace and prosperity. TFA is quietly a kind of hopeless film, because it reset things so hard that it felt like truly nothing had changed. The ST might have gone down better if was more about protecting/restoring those achievements.

Agreed. It's one thing if you wanted Finn's character arc to go in some third option that was neither Empire or Rebellion. But I think the path it took has more to do with the overall structure of the ST story. There was a clear push to take it in a more simplistic OT direction and avoid the murkiness of the prequels. That leaves you with pretty much a 100% certainty that Finn was going to be a hero of the Resistance when it's all said and done. Ironically I think Finn's arc in TLJ is probably the closest the ST came to exploring some of the grey area, even if it was mostly just lip service.

 

[fan4stic]

Your Finn views seem really inconsistent to me. On one hand, you think Finn freeing his fellow soldiers would not be a natural evolution after 8, nor is Finn's story natural in 8. On the other hand, you're suggesting Finn should never have been Resistance affiliated at all, despite everyone he's fond of being there; which would have been a massive left-turn after 7.

You say Finn's experiences in 8, his developed relationships with Poe and Rose and their side are worthless because it's just one more person in the pile and has no impact. You say 8 didn't provide Finn enough reason for change. Then you say Han Solo was significant enough to him that his death triggered an invisible character arc in Finn that occurred in 7.

We agree that Finn was under-utilized. But reading your arguments, it's clear that you've had your conclusion that TLJ broke everything for some time, because it looks like you're working backwards from that belief. The notion that TLJ couldn't be followed without a 'soft reboot' is patently wrong. DOTF was not a soft reboot at all. Even TROS, when it wasn't squirming around for audience approval and contradicting itself, was a sequel.

It's not about not being resistance affiliated. It's about that not being what his character's story is about, like I think the movie makes it. To me, they could unfold a story where Finn starts off the story conflicted about if he wants to help or not, not outright running away, but thinking about it. He can be working with the resistance in TLJ, but his main story arc not be joining the resistance. After he wakes up, he can be conflicted and torn between wanting to leave and helping Poe and the others. He eventually agrees to help, and tells them that the information they need is in the stormtrooper training facility, which only Finn, among them, knows the location of, being a former stormtrooper. He and Poe, and/or Rose or some version of that character if you want to use her (personally I think it makes sense to build on the bond between and Finn and Poe moreso than introducing a new character for Finn to bond with), break into the facility, Finn having a solemn moment where he has to wear the stormtrooper armor, in that Finn sees children being brought in by the First Order for training, and Finn begins to feel a sense responsibility for them and tries to rescue them. Now, the conclusion of this Ep 8 story can either be that they get out and this drives and sense of what Finn wants to do with his life, or he fails, and feels enraged and drives himself to take vengeance on the first order. The first option I think allows more for an affiliation with the resistance, without that concept driving his character. I think the 3rd movie could build on this more.

I was suggesting that Finn has no more of a reason to care than he did at the end of TFA. TLJ is the movie that decided he really only cares about Rey, personally. Why would I buy that he really cares at the end of this movie, after less time with characters, than he had in TFA, if TLJ would have me believe that after TFA he still only really cares about Rey?

I disagree. I think everything from the Kylo quest, Rey's story, Poe's story, Finn's concept, was basically a soft reboot, from what I remember reading/hearing. Maybe not thematically or something. I think very little in TLJ is needed for those things. Basically, to me, the pertinent info is moreso that Kylo took over the first order and killed Snoke, Rose exists and bonded with Finn, and Luke died.

I would agree with this. It seemed like some kind of mandate to get right back to that Rebel/Empire dynamic. They couldn't even wait until the New Republic was destroyed to establish the Resistance.

I think the overall story was hurt somewhat by the decision. The victory in 6 lasted 30 years, but it's hard to feel that when we got absolutely no time to see peace and prosperity. TFA is quietly a kind of hopeless film, because it reset things so hard that it felt like truly nothing had changed. The ST might have gone down better if was more about protecting/restoring those achievements.

It doesn't really. TLJ is the movie that decides the First Order are basically a near Empire strength in takeover of the galaxy. Yes, TFA has the new republic planets seemingly wiped out. But that doesn't have to mean the first order are the empire and resistance are the rebels, again, needlessly. TLJ could've had a first order that put all of their eggs into the starkiller base basket, be trying to grasp for control in a galaxy thrown into chaos by the new republic's destruction, and the resistance fighting against them in it, making this more a tug of war for the galaxy. TLJ didn't do that. It opted outright for the repetitive rebels vs empire concept again.