No love for BTM/Forever and Batman&Robin!?!?

[ALP]

One thing I didnt mention is how Schumacher completely ignored the events of Returns. Returns' utcome was pretty much the same as TDK's - Batman was now considered an enemy. People saw him on the roof when the ice princess fell and they were attacked by bats immediately afterwards. A bloody batarang was found on the scene. Plenty of people and cops saw Batman making a run to the batmobile and then wrecking havoc on the streets and escaping. So, what happened between Forever and Returns? DId Batman just sent a note saying "oh sorry it wasnt me" despite so many proofs and witneses? Its like if The Dark Knight Rises would completely ignore the ending of TDK

Yeah this is why I only view them as very very distant sequels.

Burton & Waters never were much for explaining too much about certain elements of Returns; I guess since they showed the Batsignal being used again at the end, they just wanted you to assume an explanation for yourself. It's no biggie if Returns or Forever fails to explain it, I like that loose spirit about Returns, and Forever sucks anyway t: Totally different Batverse, as far as I'm concerned...

This is an interesting point. Batman is wanted but they put up the bat signal at the end of BR.

 

[HolyPurpleSocks]

Jeez some of you were the quite the critics at young ages, I remember going to watch Batman Forever with my dad when I was 9 and loving it. It was the first Batman I was able to go and watch at the theatre. In all honesty it could've been the worst film of all time and I still would've loved it, it was Batman on the big screen FFS! I'd grown up watching reruns of the Adam West Show every night, I'd watch Batman and Batman Returns over and over again and now I was in the cinema watching a Batman movie!!

2 years later I went back to the theatre for B&R and again loved it, I wasn't bothered about Characterisation or anything like that I just wanted to see Batman!

Now I Like the movies alot less but hell they were the first Batman films I saw at the theatre so they always hold a place in my heart.

THIS. With my entire heart, this. I grew up watching the old 'Batman' reruns on TV. So yes, while elements of 'Forever' may have been over the top(but Carrey was THE MAN comedically at that time) it was still my favorite movie of all time...for a very long time. Actually, I still rank it first among the original 4.

B&R- this, to me, is just an embodiment of cheese and camp. I take it for what it is, entertaining cartoonish popcorn fun. I still watch it all the time with my 3-year old niece, and she loves it with all of her. She always says she wants to be Poison Ivy, or watch Mr. Freeze.

Also, without these predecessors, we wouldn't have gotten the tone set for the reboot we have today in BB and TDK. I'm grateful both were made, and they're my most watched of the original quartet of Bat films. No shame, no facepalm here.

 

[Smalley]

This is an interesting point. Batman is wanted but they put up the bat signal at the end of BR.

No, they put up the Batsignal at the end because he isn't wanted anymore, at least that's what Waters intended with his script, judging from that deleted scene.

 

[ALP]

No, they put up the Batsignal at the end because he isn't wanted anymore, at least that's what Waters intended with his script, judging from that deleted scene.

Oh I missed that last post of yours.

Also remember that Gordon tried to stop the other cops when they began shooting at Batman on the roof in the princess scene. Gordon never believed he did it. But let's take this discussion to the other thread.

Oh and I quite agree HolyPurpleSocks.

 

[Smalley]

Oh I missed that last post of yours.

Also remember that Gordon tried to stop the other cops when they began shooting at Batman on the roof in the princess scene. Gordon never believed he did it. But let's take this discussion to the other thread.

Oh and I quite agree HolyPurpleSocks.

That's true. Still, considering that the cops shot Batman where he was armored, perhaps they weren't really trying to kill him, but just to disable him because they thought he had just killed someone in cold blood, and were afraid he'd be too hard to take down by other means or something.

 

[The Batman]

Batman: The Movie is finally getting some respect. In 00's, people have seemed to turn around from ignorantly hating on the Adam West TV series. I remember when it was bashed frequently...now, comic fans seem to have more of an open mind about it. I love how this film used Bruce and Ms. Kitka's relationship as commentary/satire on the cold war, not to mention all the other funny gags and lines. And of course, this movie managed to gather the "Big 4" into one single movie.

Batman Forever isn't even bad, IMO. It is "pop" Batman, but unlike B & R, much of the story and most of the characters have a level of seriousness and darkness to them. Carrey's Riddler isnt even bad to me, even if it is a Gorshin rip off mixed with Carrey being Carrey. The only perfomance that was bad is, of course, Tommy Lee Jones as Two Face. He hammed it up way too much.

Batman & Robin deserves no defense. It IS a horrible movie. However, the hate Schumacher gets from it is sad...you cant help but feel sorry for him watching the B & R extras, even if it IS his fault the movie's bad.

 

[The Joker]

Batman: The Movie is finally getting some respect. In 00's, people have seemed to turn around from ignorantly hating on the Adam West TV series. I remember when it was bashed frequently...now, comic fans seem to have more of an open mind about it. I love how this film used Bruce and Ms. Kitka's relationship as commentary/satire on the cold war, not to mention all the other funny gags and lines. And of course, this movie managed to gather the "Big 4" into one single movie.

Batman Forever isn't even bad, IMO. It is "pop" Batman, but unlike B & R, much of the story and most of the characters have a level of seriousness and darkness to them. Carrey's Riddler isnt even bad to me, even if it is a Gorshin rip off mixed with Carrey being Carrey. The only perfomance that was bad is, of course, Tommy Lee Jones as Two Face. He hammed it up way too much.

Batman & Robin deserves no defense. It IS a horrible movie. However, the hate Schumacher gets from it is sad...you cant help but feel sorry for him watching the B & R extras, even if it IS his fault the movie's bad.

This

I need to revive my 60's Batman thread, too.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Well, Bruce Timm's thoughts on Schumacher's movies mirror mine: "I didn’t enjoy Schumacher’s Batman at all ". The only thing I liked about them was Kilmer's cowl, the music and the cast. Oh, and the design of Gotham (sans colors of course)

 

[GothamAlleys]

I didnt know where to ask and naturally I didnt want to create a thread for it, so Ill ask here. Can anyone post a screencap from Forever when Gordon is talking to Wayne about Dick? I need it for my next article but I dont own Schumacher's movies on DVD

 

[StarLord]

I think some people are a little too hard on Schumacher sometimes.

The 'Making Of' B&R that I watched seemed to insinuate that he was told what the movies had to be like, rather than this was all his fault. ''Toyetic'' I believe was the word.

Batman Forever will always be a little bit special, in terms of it being my first Batman cinema experience, (had to go with my parents as I was only 11).

 

[Spoonman]

^ I agree, I think way to hard some times. And yes, I quite enjoy Forever and still have very fond memories of it.

 

[StarLord]

On a side note:

I've had U2's ''Hold Me, Thrill Me, Kiss Me, Kill Me'' stuck in my head for days now!

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

One thing I didnt mention is how Schumacher completely ignored the events of Returns. Returns' utcome was pretty much the same as TDK's - Batman was now considered an enemy. People saw him on the roof when the ice princess fell and they were attacked by bats immediately afterwards. A bloody batarang was found on the scene. Plenty of people and cops saw Batman making a run to the batmobile and then wrecking havoc on the streets and escaping. So, what happened between Forever and Returns? DId Batman just sent a note saying "oh sorry it wasnt me" despite so many proofs and witneses? Its like if The Dark Knight Rises would completely ignore the ending of TDK

Actually that was Burton's screwup. Batman's redemption should've been in Returns. The movie ends with the batsignal lighting up again, so obviously Batman was back in good graces. Burton just forgot to show it.

 

[Gunga Diner]

On a side note:

I've had U2's ''Hold Me, Thrill Me, Kiss Me, Kill Me'' stuck in my head for days now!

That is quite possibly my favorite U2 song. No lie. It fits the tone of the movie perfectly, and fits Batman in a really cool, sexy way. It's easily one of the best parts of the Schumaccher movies.

I've said this before but it's worth repeating: Arnold Schwarzenegger is awesome in Batman & Robin. It's a heavily (and rightfully) ridiculed movie, but he's clearly having so much fun with the role, and it shows. This wasn't a role where they cast him for his muscles, his recognizability, or his ability to function in an action sequence. They cast him for the name. And the result is some of the most awesome comedic work he's ever done. He's absolutely nuts and is just jazzed about being evil. It's so fun to watch. Amidst all the absurdity and silliness, Watching Arnold get to be silly is so rewarding.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Actually that was Burton's screwup. Batman's redemption should've been in Returns. The movie ends with the batsignal lighting up again, so obviously Batman was back in good graces. Burton just forgot to show it.

The original cut ended without this scene, it was something added in the post production after the shooting has wrapped up and everyone went home. I know the script mentiones Gordon and the Mayor thinking if Batman woud ever forgive them but Im glad it didnt make the movie. First of all there was no way they couldve known that Batman's car was sabotaged and that Penguin was remotedly behind it just based on the fact that he was offending the residents and shooting at them at the speech. Secondly, I thought it wouldve been a cheap cop out. Theres plenty of potential in this subplot of Batman being accused as snapping and becoming a maniac and TDK recognized it

 

[Ponyboy]

Damn I wish I had a DeLorean so I could back and change the events surrounding Batman Forever so that Burton & Keaton had stayed on.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

The original cut ended without this scene, it was something added in the post production after the shooting has wrapped up and everyone went home. I know the script mentiones Gordon and the Mayor thinking if Batman woud ever forgive them but Im glad it didnt make the movie. First of all there was no way they couldve known that Batman's car was sabotaged and that Penguin was remotedly behind it just based on the fact that he was offending the residents and shooting at them at the speech. Secondly, I thought it wouldve been a cheap cop out. Theres plenty of potential in this subplot of Batman being accused as snapping and becoming a maniac and TDK recognized it

But the fact of the matter is, Burton's movie ends with Batman back in good graces (for whatever reason). Anything concerning script changes and alternate cuts is irrelevant, the only text is what ended up on screen. As such, Schumacher was under no obligation to explain anything, or continue the "fugitive" angle that was already over anyway.

 

[Ponyboy]

Yes, I think anyone paying attention to the film can assume that Batman is back in good at the end of the film. I'm sure the exposure of Penguin as a villain at the hands of Batman was sorted out by the authorities. At least we know this because the Bat signal was activated again at the end. Also the scene where Bruce and Alfred are in the car driving... that could've been days after the death of Shreck. Maybe Bruce had just come from seeing Gordon? Who knows? I don't think it was necessary to see it.

 

[El Payaso]

Actually that was Burton's screwup. Batman's redemption should've been in Returns. The movie ends with the batsignal lighting up again, so obviously Batman was back in good graces. Burton just forgot to show it.

Ahem.. how is it a screw up exactly?

You've got the batsignal, that tells you Batman is back in business, what else do you need to get it? The classic verbal explanation to underline the obvious? It was 1992, way before Goyer was writing bat-movies man.

 

[Two-Face]

That Bat-signal scene almost didn't make the final cut. I like it because it's a great way to end a movie.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Ahem.. how is it a screw up exactly?

You've got the batsignal, that tells you Batman is back in business, what else do you need to get it? The classic verbal explanation to underline the obvious? It was 1992, way before Goyer was writing bat-movies man.

HAHAHA. Good one t:

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

Ahem.. how is it a screw up exactly?

You've got the batsignal, that tells you Batman is back in business, what else do you need to get it? The classic verbal explanation to underline the obvious? It was 1992, way before Goyer was writing bat-movies man.

This. I don't understand why some people need to be spoonfed every single detail of a movie.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Schumacher was absolutely right about comic books. They are silly stories, every last one of them BUT you have to know how to handle it. For example, there's nothing wrong with Mr. Freeze being over the top, having an ice lair, or ice themed hench men, or even freezing Gotham City. There is something wrong with having him make 3,000 ice related puns while doing it. It wasn't just that he made them stupid action movies, it's that he made the audience aware of just how stupid they were. Two-Face didn't need to dress like he got brutally raped by RuPaul's closet. Schumacher didn't need to yutz of Batman's pension for labelling things by having him have a 'Bat credit card'. Suits don't need nipples to exaggerate the male physique like comic books do. Schumacher definitely had the right idea but he took it way, way too far.

 

[GothamAlleys]

But the fact of the matter is, Burton's movie ends with Batman back in good graces (for whatever reason). Anything concerning script changes and alternate cuts is irrelevant, the only text is what ended up on screen. As such, Schumacher was under no obligation to explain anything, or continue the "fugitive" angle that was already over anyway.

And what ended up onscreen was just a bat signal. Penguin and his gang was defeated, surely the signal wasnt calling Batman for help. It couldve been to capture him for all we know. If we go by whats onscreen,m then the police has no possible way of knowing that Batman was sabotaged. They saw the princess falling from the roof and Batman at the same spot from which she fell from. they found a bloody batarang in her tent. an entire crowd of people actually saw Batman getting into the batmobile which then wrecked havoc on all the people of Gotham.

 

[Ponyboy]

And what ended up onscreen was just a bat signal. Penguin and his gang was defeated, surely the signal wasnt calling Batman for help. It couldve been to capture him for all we know.

I never thought of it that way... But I never felt the signal was to "chase" Batman... I always felt the signal appeared because they needed his help again.