North Carloina Police Break into Couples Home after Dispute over a Flag

[jaguarr]

They have a strong case for abuse of power....they do not have a strong case for the use of the flag. As soon as you allow the American flag to be used in whatever manner we wish, what will be next? Taking the Bald Eagle and hanging it dead in your front yard to promote your political opinion? I certainly hope not....

Aren't you sort of taking things to extremes? A civil rights case in which an inanimate piece of cloth and how it's used is a FAR cry from killing a living, breathing animal in order to make a statement about free speech or political opinions. Even burning of the flag is constitutionally protected, let alone hanging it upside down as a form of political protest. Bald Eagles are a protected species all the way around, so even the laws are incredibly different between your two examples. It's alarmist, extreme and probably horribly inappropriate to compare the two things.

jag

 

[Kelly]

Aren't you sort of taking things to extremes? A civil rights case in which an inanimate piece of cloth and how it's used is a FAR cry from killing a living, breathing animal in order to make a statement about free speech or political opinions. Even burning of the flag is constitutionally protected, let alone hanging it upside down as a form of political protest. Bald Eagles are a protected species all the way around, so even the laws are incredibly different between your two examples. It's alarmist, extreme and probably horribly inappropriate to compare the two things.

jag

And I respect your opinion......

Maybe I am, but thats our society, you give alittle........and we end up taking everything.....thats just how we are.......I did take it from one extreme to the other.....but we are a society of extremes......thats proven in the news everyday. As far as I'm concerned the American flag is as much of a symbol of my freedom as the Bald Eagle. I take both, and the respect of both very seriously......I'm not saying that these people were showing a total disrespect for the flag, but when you begin to give in slightly, then the next thing is burning, the next thing is dragging it through the dirt, and then leading to....what? throwing **** on it..........?????? I'm looking beyond this couples fight....they have every right to slam that cops job in the ground....he was an ass.........but IMO, and it is JUST MY OPINION THAT I'M SPEAKING OF......I'm not speaking for anyone else.....I think they need to show their opinion of their country and fly the flag correctly, and let their opinion be known about Bush (something they have every right to give, as long as its not a threat) in some other fashion.........


On a semi-side note......the Bald Eagle is no longer on the endangered species list, it is on the threatened species list and is now being looked at quite closely to see if it can at some point be taken off that list as well.

 

[Badger]

Yeah, next time my neighbor leaves his flag out while it's raining, I'm calling the cops.

The nerve of some people.

 

[Kelly]

Yeah, next time my neighbor leaves his flag out while it's raining, I'm calling the cops.

The nerve of some people.

No, but I know my neighbor well enough to call her and remind her that she has the flag flying.....and its raining.


I guess I'm alittle toward the emotional end of this discussion......

I'm a teacher who lost one of my students in Iraq. They took the flag from atop the Capital flew it to Houston, we had a ceremony in front of our school where our ROTC took down our school's American Flag, flew that flag from the capital for that day, and then as our congressman was speaking of Anthony on the floor of Congress in Washington, we took the flag down and presented to his sister, also one of my ex-students.......that was amazing to see and be a part of......and I'll never forget or Anthony.....he saved his comrades that day in Iraq, and he would be the first to tell you how important that flag is........

Please don't get me wrong, I believe that you all believe as strongly in our freedoms as I do, and this story is not to say that you don't feel strongly enough.......its just simply to give you a gauge of where I'm at......

 

[Superman79]

I'm saying the law is unconstitutional because it interferes with the right to
protest using the flag. That's the same reason why flag burning was found constitutional. It doesn't matter if the law is the law if it's against the constitution.

I hear what you're trying to say E, it's just the legal connections to the precedent aren't there...


But this is not against the constitution. Government is allowed reasonable "time, place, and manner" restrictions on speech. So long as they are not cutting it off completely. In the flag burning case, the court held that it was too restrictive and conflicted with existing law requiring the burning of flags for disposal. Here the law isn't even a total restriction, it merely reserves the upside down flag as a known sign of danger/distress and request for help...there is no function of restricting speech in the law. Thus it is inapplicable to the burning precedent. The way the Court would analyze the case would not let them say it interferes with speech. There is no fundamental right to "protest using the flag" as such the case would fall under what they call "rational basis review" which is a very cursory for of review as opposed to strict scrutiny used in cases Like Roe v. Wade and such where fundamental rights are burdened.

Essentially, the law is not intended to discriminate against speech, nor it is so opressive that it burdens fundamental rights, hence the USSC won't likely waste it's time. And if it does it will likely uphold the code.

 

[jaguarr]

And I respect your opinion......

Maybe I am, but thats our society, you give alittle........and we end up taking everything.....thats just how we are.......I did take it from one extreme to the other.....but we are a society of extremes......thats proven in the news everyday. As far as I'm concerned the American flag is as much of a symbol of my freedom as the Bald Eagle. I take both, and the respect of both very seriously......I'm not saying that these people were showing a total disrespect for the flag, but when you begin to give in slightly, then the next thing is burning, the next thing is dragging it through the dirt, and then leading to....what? throwing **** on it..........?????? I'm looking beyond this couples fight....they have every right to slam that cops job in the ground....he was an ass.........but IMO, and it is JUST MY OPINION THAT I'M SPEAKING OF......I'm not speaking for anyone else.....I think they need to show their opinion of their country and fly the flag correctly, and let their opinion be known about Bush (something they have every right to give, as long as its not a threat) in some other fashion.........

Then please don't tie an emotional issue like killing an innocent animal (which no one but you has ever mentioned in this thread) to the right to hang a flag upside down. They're completely unrelated issues and I don't see anyone asking for permission to kill bald eagles as a form of political protest. I may not agree with what those people did or how they went about putting out their message, but I'll defend their right to do that until the day I die. It's not a slippery slope like you're trying to paint it. Sorry.

jag

 

[GoldenAgeHero]

meh, they have a 50/50 chance...I mean if the claim that the officer thought there was an emergency/real distress can be substantiated, then it'd be difficult to say.

I mean the act of the upside down flag IS to signal for help...as in the s**t has hit the fan/we're being held hostage/emergency call 911...it was MEANT to garner immediate attention.

If you wanna make a political point with how you hang the flag, fine, hang it backwards. Reserve upside down for emergencies the way it was intended.

thats ******ed, how can someone be in an emergency and have time to put a flag upside down?...******ed law.

 

[sinewave]

i don't get why the flag has to be protected with laws. it's a piece of fabric and. since this is a country that allows free expression, if you own the flag you should be allowed to do whatever you want with it. why do people get so offended if something is done to it? why the emotional attachment to it?

 

[blind_fury]

An upside down American flag does not insult the country. It's being used as a political statement regarding the abuse of our government. I hope all the redneck gestapo involved are fired.

Half of them are probably closet Klansmen.

 

[Badger]

No, but I know my neighbor well enough to call her and remind her that she has the flag flying.....and its raining.


I guess I'm alittle toward the emotional end of this discussion......

I'm a teacher who lost one of my students in Iraq. They took the flag from atop the Capital flew it to Houston, we had a ceremony in front of our school where our ROTC took down our school's American Flag, flew that flag from the capital for that day, and then as our congressman was speaking of Anthony on the floor of Congress in Washington, we took the flag down and presented to his sister, also one of my ex-students.......that was amazing to see and be a part of......and I'll never forget or Anthony.....he saved his comrades that day in Iraq, and he would be the first to tell you how important that flag is........

Please don't get me wrong, I believe that you all believe as strongly in our freedoms as I do, and this story is not to say that you don't feel strongly enough.......its just simply to give you a gauge of where I'm at......

I totally agree with you.

However just as a soldier holds the flag near to them, I believe they hold the freedoms represented here to be just as important. Because without our freedoms, our flag loses it's meaning.

Like I said earlier, do I agree with it, I certainly do not. I could never do that, because I am one of those people that takes their flag down when it's raining or when it is beginning to show wear.

I'm sorry to hear about Anthony and I certainly understand your emotions on this subject.

 

[bored]

If an upside down flag with a pin is wrong, what to make of American flag clothes? Celebrate your country by sweating on its symbol!

 

[Superman79]

i don't get why the flag has to be protected with laws. it's a piece of fabric and. since this is a country that allows free expression, if you own the flag you should be allowed to do whatever you want with it. why do people get so offended if something is done to it? why the emotional attachment to it?

I think its due to the history, due to the symbolism...as a guy who has had family in every branch of the military and in the Korean, WWII, and Gulf wars...you come to look at the flag as a symbol of the sacrifices those you cared about made so we could have this great country and all the freedoms that come with it...thus making it a personal emotional attachment to the flag through or attachment to the men and women in our lives who are putting/have put their lives on the line to protect the rights/country the flag represents.

That's probably the best way I can think of to explain it.

 

[Kelly]

Wow...

This is absurd! Didn't these police officers have any more important, dangerous matters to attend to? For example, arresting the various thieves, murderers, serial killers, rapists, child molesters, and terrorists in this country (people who actually pose a threat to the lives and safety of other people)?

Apparently not.......and yes it is absurd........I'd slam their asses.

 

[Dan33977]

Wow...

This is absurd! Didn't these police officers have any more important, dangerous matters to attend to? For example, arresting the various thieves, murderers, serial killers, rapists, child molesters, and terrorists in this country (people who actually pose a threat to the lives and safety of other people)?

 

[The Evolutionist]

I think its due to the history, due to the symbolism...as a guy who has had family in every branch of the military and in the Korean, WWII, and Gulf wars...you come to look at the flag as a symbol of the sacrifices those you cared about made so we could have this great country and all the freedoms that come with it...thus making it a personal emotional attachment to the flag through or attachment to the men and women in our lives who are putting/have put their lives on the line to protect the rights/country the flag represents.

That's probably the best way I can think of to explain it.

Up until my mother's generation (it came down to her and her two sisters being the only ones in the generation), every male on that side of my family has been in the armed forces. We've been in every war from the Civil War up, in every branch. My Uncle received a Congressional Medal of Honor in Vietnam. And yet my family has taught me that if I have something to say, I should use every non-violent way I can think of to say it. Because that's what my family lived and died for. Not some piece of cloth with a few stars and stripes on it, but for their offspring to live freely.

 

[The Geek Vault]

Dumb cops

 

[Kritish]

meh, they have a 50/50 chance...I mean if the claim that the officer thought there was an emergency/real distress can be substantiated, then it'd be difficult to say.

I mean the act of the upside down flag IS to signal for help...as in the s**t has hit the fan/we're being held hostage/emergency call 911...it was MEANT to garner immediate attention.

If you wanna make a political point with how you hang the flag, fine, hang it backwards. Reserve upside down for emergencies the way it was intended.

Everyone knows that the upside down flag is intended for emergencies. But where exactly is it in the books that you can't use it for non-emergencies?

Actually, the Supreme Court said all of those things are protected...hell, even most cross burnings (see RAV v. Minnesota) are protected speech.

as for sex, it can only be strictly regulated if it lacks serious artistic, or scientific value and appeals strictly to the prurient nature of the act. t:

The supreme court says it's legal, but that doesn't the government from creating things like the FCC.

An upside down American flag does not insult the country. It's being used as a political statement regarding the abuse of our government. I hope all the redneck gestapo involved are fired.

Half of them are probably closet Klansmen.

I hate agreeing with you. I think I need a shower now.

 

[Superman79]

Everyone knows that the upside down flag is intended for emergencies. But where exactly is it in the books that you can't use it for non-emergencies?

It's not, I was just saying it might be used in a potential court case as a "defense" by the cops...I'm not saying they were right, but personally, I hope if I was in trouble and did the upside down flag thing, that a cop would at least come check it out...**shrug**


That and really I wouldn't say we're in dire times...yeah Bush is a numbnut, but things will get better, they always do, plus look at it this way, Bush hasn't even come REMOTELY CLOSE to sucking as bad as Jimmy Carter did when he was president (I still maintain that man above all is the reason we have so many problems with the mid-east.)

The supreme court says it's legal, but that doesn't the government from creating things like the FCC.

Legal, but as I said before "strictly regulated" ...there is no such thing as "absolute freedom of speech"..to allow that would be chaos, not to mention the violence that could result.

Though remind me to tell you about the "porn days" they would have in the Supreme Court back in the day...it's hilarious!!

I hate agreeing with you. I think I need a shower now.

As for agreeing with fury, I'm with you. But frankly, yeah the Executive branch is going a overboard and the Legislative branch can't stop b1tching at one another, but really, we're no worse off than other times in history, and it will improve, we just have to be patient until the lame duck is out...

 

[Superman79]

Up until my mother's generation (it came down to her and her two sisters being the only ones in the generation), every male on that side of my family has been in the armed forces. We've been in every war from the Civil War up, in every branch. My Uncle received a Congressional Medal of Honor in Vietnam. And yet my family has taught me that if I have something to say, I should use every non-violent way I can think of to say it. Because that's what my family lived and died for. Not some piece of cloth with a few stars and stripes on it, but for their offspring to live freely.

I wasn't arguing that what these folks expressed was wrong or not there bro, I was just answering sine's question about why we as Americans are attached/respect the flag.

As well, my other arguments are not on the right and wrong of the situation, merely the legal approaches.

 

[The Evolutionist]

I wasn't arguing that what these folks expressed was wrong or not there bro, I was just answering sine's question about why we as Americans are attached/respect the flag.

As well, my other arguments are not on the right and wrong of the situation, merely the legal approaches.

Ok, I wasn't totally certain where you were going with that, so I offered up my view on things. My minds been a little jumpy today, so...yeah...

 

[Superman79]

Ok, I wasn't totally certain where you were going with that, so I offered up my view on things. My minds been a little jumpy today, so...yeah...

it's cool. For me it's always about the legal arguments first and the personal second...blame it on law school t:

 

[terry78]

It's a freedom of speech issue for the most part. The thing is that people say the war is protecting our freedom of speech to say what we want, but when we say something that they don't like, suddenly we aren't allowed to say it. It's one big contradiction.

If I protest the war, someone will say I'm Un-American for protesting and should be damn glad I have someone fighting to protect my rights. But if you're fighting to protect my rights, that means I should be able to say if I disagree.

 

[The Evolutionist]

it's cool. For me it's always about the legal arguments first and the personal second...blame it on law school t:

Yeah, I try to keep it that way too, but I haven't really eaten anything today, so like I said, my mind's all fuzzy.

 

[Superman79]

It's a freedom of speech issue for the most part. The thing is that people say the war is protecting our freedom of speech to say what we want, but when we say something that they don't like, suddenly we aren't allowed to say it. It's one big contradiction.

If I protest the war, someone will say I'm Un-American for protesting and should be damn glad I have someone fighting to protect my rights. But if you're fighting to protect my rights, that means I should be able to say if I disagree.

why you un-American bastard! t:

 

[Kelly]

We keep saying the government didn't allow them this or that as far as freedom of speech.....this is a case between that couple and that cop.....that cop was definitely going with his own views, and possibly the views of a police force in a relatively large, but very conservative city. The people have a case, but it will have to go further than the city and state, because both are way to conservative to go with the views of this couple.