Rogue One Rogue One vs. The Force Awakens

[DarthSkywalker]

I say this as someone who likes the movie. This is not wrong outside of the Suicide Squad comparison.

[YT]P3gf6qyAHOw[/YT]

I still like the movie. But it hasn't really held up that well for me.

 

[Grootster]

The one where she proved the very words of the original script writer on how Rey was the hero from the start.

Well, the cynical side of me says that the filmmakers could be stretching the truth to make the final product look good; but I suppose if I claim that, someone could just as easily claim Gareth Edwards lied about Rogue One's reshoots being normal, so I suppose I have to say point taken.

I say this as someone who likes the movie. This is not wrong outside of the Suicide Squad comparison.

[YT]P3gf6qyAHOw[/YT]

I'm sorry, but I really can't stand her videos, it kind of boggles my mind that her videos end up trending. She tries way too hard to be RedLetterMedia or something, but she doesn't strike me as very funny or nearly as knowledgeable about filmmaking. It may just be conflict of personalities, but I have trouble making it through her videos without cringing. No disrespect to her intended, maybe she's still finding her channel identity or something.

It's been a while and I don't remember all her points about Rogue One, but as I recall I disagreed with almost every one of them.

I still like the movie. But it hasn't really held up that well for me.

You feel the same way about Rogue One that I feel about TFA; and vice versa.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Well, the cynical side of me says that the filmmakers could be stretching the truth to make the final product look good; but I suppose if I claim that, someone could just as easily claim Gareth Edwards lied about Rogue One's reshoots being normal, so I suppose I have to say point taken.

What is the point of lying about this? Disney didn't like about changing the main character from the male fox to the female rabbit.

I'm sorry, but I really can't stand her videos, it kind of boggles my mind that her videos end up trending. She tries way too hard to be RedLetterMedia or something, but she doesn't strike me as very funny or nearly as knowledgeable about filmmaking. It may just be conflict of personalities, but I have trouble making it through her videos without cringing. No disrespect to her intended, maybe she's still finding her channel identity or something.

It's been a while and I don't remember all her points about Rogue One, but as I recall I disagreed with almost every one of them.

I find her funny, insightful, and clever. But not really the issue here. I am talking about the points she makes in the video about the lack of character arcs, or how perhaps the biggest cheering moment of the movie coming at the end, in favor of the villain.

You feel the same way about Rogue One that I feel about TFA; and vice versa.

Yeah, but I use the movies to back up my points. Actually all things considered, especially how you talk about Rey in TFA, wouldn't Jenny Nicholson's approach be right up your alley?

Also, back to a point from earlier:

How in any way, shape, or form is this an insult? You are trying to use the fact that the public loves Rey as proof is that she's a good character, and I'm pointing out that the public loves pretty much anything Star Wars, no matter how underdeveloped. Characters like Darth Maul become pop culture icons simply because of a cool design, so I don't think the people's reception means much at all in terms of how well-executed a character is.

It is the simple idea of downplaying a good public reaction of a character as something to do with a lack of intelligence of the general audiences. Basically, "you like it because you are simple". As if they champion a crap ton of awful characters and movies. And yet throughout the history of film, how many great characters have gone unnoticed by either film fans or general audiences?

 

[dude stannis]

I've seen Rogue One 3 times and I feel like revisiting it before my December marathon. I have no real desire to see Force Awakens ever again.

And "Blah Blah Reason's YOU are wrong" videos can kiss my ass.

 

[Grootster]

I find her funny, insightful, and clever. But not really the issue here. I am talking about the points she makes in the video about the lack of character arcs, or how perhaps the biggest cheering moment of the movie coming at the end, in favor of the villain.

Actually I take it back, she brought up an interesting point about the Darth Vader scene that was pretty thought provoking. I don't see it as a problem with the movie though. Other than that point I find her videos to be pretty unremarkable.

It is the simple idea of downplaying a good public reaction of a character as something to do with a lack of intelligence of the general audiences. Basically, "you like it because you are simple".As if they champion a crap ton of awful characters and movies. And yet throughout the history of film, how many great characters have gone unnoticed by either film fans or general audiences?

I suppose the "popcorn munching" bit was a little unnecessary, but I think my point still stands. General audiences tend to not be overly discerning when it comes to filmmaking and characterization and whatnot. Like the example I used, the public loves Darth Maul even though most people who really analyze the character agree that he's pretty underdeveloped. If your point is simply that Rey is liked by the public, well I suppose I agree; but if you're trying to use that as a way of offering evidence that she's a well-defined character, I don't think the general audience is the best judge of that

 

[moreorless]

Sorry for ducking out on a discussion I seemed to kick off, didn't notice the replys.

I'd agree with a lot of what you've said Grootster in terms of TFA being a highly plot rather than character driven film. Some of that it I think down to Abrams general style but I think a very significant issue as well is the degree of recycling from A New Hope that we see. I think this causes big problems for the film as Abrams ends up basically trying to fit square pegs into round holes, something that was created to tell one story being reused to try and tell a different story.

A lot of Rey's story for me depends much too heavily on a kind of reflected drama from Luke in the original films. His accepting and using the force was a significant character moment because we'd seen it built up to represent his desire to greater his world view and became a hero whilst(he believed) following his father. Rey's story about being abandoned though simply isn't linked into the force dramatically in the same way and her acceptance of it depends on recycling drama from Luke for me.

As far as Rogue One goes the characters arcs seem pretty clear for me, Jyn moves from cynical selfishness to heroic selflessness by way of some very clear markers, his fathers message, the empire destroying Jehda and then her fathers death/dying words. Cassian moves from ruthlessly following orders because he believes in the overall cause to being much more specifically moral in his choices supporting Jyn.

Again it just seems to be a lot of people and especially youtube reviewers like Red Letter and Stuckman had too much of a horse in this race to be objective. They'd spent years telling us what a blockbuster should be and a film like TFA as a reaction to the prequels was exactly what they had been talking up. Rogue One the following year though delivers something totally different, it takes its setting very seriously, paces itself rather more slowly and has subtler more realistic characters, to admit it was successful would be to admit that the very narrow formula of what a blockbuster should be they push was incorrect. They view a film like Empire though the lens of experience but honestly if it were released today they likely trash it for not following there simplistic thrill ride formula.

 

[Grootster]

moreorless,

I think you're hitting the nail right on the head when you say "Abrams ends up basically trying to fit square pegs into round holes". Homages are fine, but you can't write a story around homages and references and have it be it's own thing, which is exactly the problem with TFA. And what you described is basically my gripe with the Rey character. The filmmakers tried too hard to recreate Luke's backstory, but didn't realize (or ignored) what made it impactful; hence we end up with a jumble of a character who's...serviceable for the general public, but isn't nearly as interesting or relatable in the long run. Jyn Erso definitely had a more clear-cut character-arc, not to mention a more defined personality and backstory that makes us able to relate to her.

 

[moreorless]

Indeed, I find a lot of the "he just remade ANH" criticism wide of the mark personally for that reason. Obviously yes the film does take a lot from ANH but if it had successfully remade that film with a few changes that I'd say it would actually deserve a good deal of praise. What it does is IMHO feed those elements into a formula pretty similar to Abrams Trek(which whilst I didn't think was a classic or anything was IMHO better) and ends up constrained significantly by them from telling its own story. Rey and Finn feel more than anything like audience avatars visiting a Star Wars theme park for me after the first 15 mins or so of the film, the story doesn't grow out of there characters but rather there along for the ride with nostalgia from the original films driving things along with constantly action/humour. Rey leaving Jakku for example should be a major emotional climax in the film given her attachment to the place yet there's no decision there, she's just forced to leave in another big action sequence.

In terms of audience reaction I think a big issue is that these days you do not necessarily need to come up with great or even very good cinema to earn a load of money, rather you just need to release something people want to see that keeps them reasonably entertained for 2 hours. Hard to gage these things of course but my feeling is that culturally TFA hasn't realty stuck the way say Lord of the Rings, Nolans's Batman or several Marvel films have despite the amount of money it earnt. Being part of SW it will obviously retain some link but to meit actually feels a lot more like Avatar in terms of failing to retain interest despite earning a crazy amount of money.

That youtube review of Rogue One posted above is pretty much a perfect example of the simplistic nonsense that's flourished on the medium for me, basically aiming low pandering to a audience with supreme overconfidence rather than bringing honest and detailed analysis. To there credit the likes of Red Letter are a good deal smarter and more amusing but they to were I think very obviously keyed into pushing a certain view to certain people and there Rogue One response ended up laughably dishonest for me for that reason. Going crazy about nostalgia after giving TFA that featured a hell of a lot more of it a free pass and actually cutting out elements of scenes to make false argument(that for example the street fight had no character/humour to it) does not a credible opinion make for me.

 

[Grootster]

Sadly, Hollywood is beginning to realize that they don't need to make good movies to get people in seats. They can pump out a soulless, corporate product that hides under the guise of being 'fun', and still bring in a billion dollars. I agree that TFA hasn't stuck with audiences nearly as well as it should have. Guardians of the Galaxy became an instant classic, but TFA is quickly fading into the same void as the prequels.

The saddest part is that I bought into it, when I walked out of TFA for the first time I wanted to know what would happen next, but a couple years later I find that I don't really care much at all. Recently I realized that TLJ could completely scrap the characters of Rey, Finn, or Poe and replace them with new leads, and I wouldn't even miss them. The acting is good for the most part, but the characterizations are just so poor that I have no real attachment to these characters.

Yeah, that video is nonsense. I respect RedLetterMedia's opinions on Rogue One (despite the fact that I don't agree with them) because it's clear that they are extremely well-versed in knowledge of film-making, and they form their own unique opinions on how the movie could have been improved. I do think that they missed the mark on Rogue One, but I get where they're coming from. Jenny Nicholson just regurgitates the same stuff that's been going around (which she probably got from RLM), but seemingly without their knowledge of cinema (not to mention charisma or charm.) Again, it sort of boggles my mind that her videos usually trend. It may sound cynical, but it seems like female YouTubers earn popularity at a faster rate than male YouTubers (regardless of video quality), especially in male-dominated fanbases like Star Wars. I've noticed the same thing in the Transformers community. I'm all for more diversity in the leading members of the SW community, but it really bugs me when someone like this gets such a following without doing much to earn it.

 

[moreorless]

I just think after that 4 billion investment Disney were being very cautious with SW and viewed Abrams Trek formula as the safe option, basically come over to our franchise and give us the same thing. You do have to say that business wise they knew what they were doing but equally I think a big issue is that many underestimated the pull of SW after the prequels, those films not being well received plus you could argue not actually linking as closely into the originals underplayed the series draw.

You could I spose argue one position is that really Abrams hasn't really given us much in terms of form story and characters. Rey, Finn and indeed the whole situation have not been well defined at all to the degree Rian Johnson had a pretty blank slate.

Red Letter Media are definitely smarter than most on Youtube but still honestly I do think those prequel reviews as fun as they were didn't really go deep enough. The kind of formula they were pushing for years was ultimately for be pretty simplistic cinema and linked into this idea that seems to have become very popular in the last decade of a clear high/low art divide. Basically that genre blockbusters should stick to being "low art" and not treat there setting seriously. Less the era of geek cinema its talked up as and actually more anti geek cinema with films falling over themselves to undermine their own credibility. Not that this style can't be effective if done well of course but in TFA it just feel misplaced and clumsy to me when the initial rush of the first viewing is done.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Now that I finally saw both, Rogue One won me over.

 

[Grootster]

A lot of people complain that Rogue One is boring, but I find it very rewatchable, and I always notice new little details and plot-connections every time I watch it. Haters can say what they want, but I find it to be a very smart movie. I saw Rogue One probably less than a month ago and I already have the urge to pop in the DVD and watch it again. TFA on the other hand, I haven't seen in several months, and I have no real desire to revisit it any time soon. Every time I watch TFA I see more and more flaws in logic, and I realize that it's more of a sequence of fast-paced events that just happen than it it an actual plot.

Edit: I also don't get why so many people complain that Rogue One is a nostalgia fest, while giving TFA a free pass. Yes, Rogue One does have a lot of OT imagery, but at least it makes sense for the time period and it's creatively implemented. Not to mention that there are plenty of entirely new vehicles and settings in Rogue One. There are a couple awkward callbacks, but I can rattle them off on the fingers of one hand and they're so few and far between that they don't ruin the movie. TFA is literally a straight-up rinse-repeat of OT stuff we know (right down to the storyline), and it's not really anything that new or creative. TFA has FAR more awkward, in-your-face callbacks, so many that the more I watch the movie, the more I just sort of groan at them.

 

[Iceman]

After seeing Rogue One again recently, I'm much more even on these 2 films.

 

[moreorless]

A lot of people complain that Rogue One is boring, but I find it very rewatchable, and I always notice new little details and plot-connections every time I watch it. Haters can say what they want, but I find it to be a very smart movie. I saw Rogue One probably less than a month ago and I already have the urge to pop in the DVD and watch it again. TFA on the other hand, I haven't seen in several months, and I have no real desire to revisit it any time soon. Every time I watch TFA I see more and more flaws in logic, and I realize that it's more of a sequence of fast-paced events that just happen than it it an actual plot.

Edit: I also don't get why so many people complain that Rogue One is a nostalgia fest, while giving TFA a free pass. Yes, Rogue One does have a lot of OT imagery, but at least it makes sense for the time period and it's creatively implemented. Not to mention that there are plenty of entirely new vehicles and settings in Rogue One. There are a couple awkward callbacks, but I can rattle them off on the fingers of one hand and they're so few and far between that they don't ruin the movie. TFA is literally a straight-up rinse-repeat of OT stuff we know (right down to the storyline), and it's not really anything that new or creative. TFA has FAR more awkward, in-your-face callbacks, so many that the more I watch the movie, the more I just sort of groan at them.

The difference between the two films does for me become much more apparent with repeat viewings, granted I preffered Rogue One on first viewing but as you say it does obviously reward repeat viewings more for me were as with TFA the cracks become more obvious with each viewing

As I said previously I think a big issue is expectations people had beforehand. You had this massive culture grow up behind tearing down the prequels that I think gravitated towards glorying JJ Abrams and viewing TFA as the promised land. Granted I don't disagree with a lot of the criticisms of the prequels but still the vast majority of this analsysis was pretty simplistic. it was IMHO mostly playing to the crowd telling them that the current trend for light fast paced blockbusters was all the medium could ever be.

Rogue One turning up basically disregarding so much of what they said a blockbusters should be yet being successful was obviously viewed as a threat. Nostalgia was a pretty cheap club to beat it with as you say given that it was much more prominent with TFA. To really get to the heart of it what they should have been saying was "what your taking this seriously? that's for geeeeeeks! not me I'm a grown up, honest!"

 

[Iceman]

I'm surprised I didn't like Rogue 1 more first time around. Must have been tired or something.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I'm surprised I didn't like Rogue 1 more first time around. Must have been tired or something.

That's why I always watch movies t least twice before making a final judgement. I have changed my mind on so many movies over the years after a 2nd viewing.

 

[moreorless]

That's why I always watch movies t least twice before making a final judgement. I have changed my mind on so many movies over the years after a 2nd viewing.

I find it an even bigger factor with something like Star Wars as expectation plays such a significant part.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I find it an even bigger factor with something like Star Wars as expectation plays such a significant part.

True, though I enjoyed both TFA and RO upon initial and repeat viewings.

As Iceman said they though, tiredness can be a factor, amoung other things.

 

[Grootster]

I enjoyed Rogue One the first time I watched it, but I recall being a bit thrown off by the ending the first time. It had crossed my mind months before that all the heroes could die, but I had no idea they'd actually have the guts to do it; but the instant K-2SO died I realized that it was probably going to happen. It was definitely a very different cinematic experience than I'm used to, but one that worked.

 

[Iceman]

That's why I always watch movies t least twice before making a final judgement. I have changed my mind on so many movies over the years after a 2nd viewing.

I don't know how common that is for me but it certainly at least solidifies what I've seen and I can be more confident about my own opinion after the 2nd viewing. I was hungover, tired and had a front row seat (involving a hell of a lot of neck strain) during TDK and couldn't really enjoy it for eg.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I don't know how common that is for me but it certainly at least solidifies what I've seen and I can be more confident about my own opinion after the 2nd viewing. I was hungover, tired and had a front row seat (involving a hell of a lot of neck strain) during TDK and couldn't really enjoy it for eg.

Yeah it's happened with me plenty of times, hated a movie when watching it hungover, tired, etc, then watched the same movie again later and loved it.

Rogue One does stand up to repeat viewings though,so that helps.

 

[Iceman]

Yeah it's happened with me plenty of times, hated a movie when watching it hungover, tired, etc, then watched the same movie again later and loved it.

Rogue One does stand up to repeat viewings though,so that helps.

I'm looking forward to watching it again soon

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I'm looking forward to watching it again soon

I watched it again last night. The Vader scene is just gold.

 

[Iceman]

I watched it again last night. The Vader scene is just gold.

Nice one. I'm going to rewatch it again soon for sure. Defenders getting in the way for now.

 

[Greens]

I find her funny, insightful, and clever. But not really the issue here. I am talking about the points she makes in the video about the lack of character arcs, or how perhaps the biggest cheering moment of the movie coming at the end, in favor of the villain.

Most of her points are valid. Rogue One has a lot of problems in the writing department. The tacked on fan service at the end, the needlessly convoluted ground battle, lame characters, a stumbling first act. The more I look back on it the more I lack the need to ever watch Rogue One again. Just a small collection of scenes on YouTube.