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The Bush Thread

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This is an interesting discussion though.

To your point, how can politicians really set aside their personal feelings and values from their policies? Take something as simple as taxes. Obama will argue that some people have an obligation to pay higher taxes to support those with lower incomes where as George Bush would argue that the government should not force charity on people and that if you want to have more you should earn it, not look to those who are better off for state sanctioned hand outs.

Who is right and who is wrong? All comes down to your own morality and personal values.

Was it right to invade Iraq in the name of freeing people from a dictator or is freedom valueless unless earned and our soldiers should not be put in danger for the freedom of others? Again, it comes down to personal values.

Character and morality is a factor in politics.

You have a very strong point. I guess where I'm coming from with it is I would prefer to see attacks on a politician be based on their policies. I see where your coming from in a persons values and morals dictate policy decisions, but what bothers me is attacks on a president based on personal things. Bush's speech patterns or Obama's parentage being reasons for attacking him are ridiculous. I agree that debate about a persons politics are good, but shameless personal attacks are not cool. I am guilty of such attacks. When Bush was in office, I stooped low and did those sort of attacks, but in seeing the similar attacks being pushed on Obama I have seen the error in what I was doing. Perhaps it would have been better if I said attacks on a politician should be based on a persons policies, not his or her personal matters.
 
You have a very strong point. I guess where I'm coming from with it is I would prefer to see attacks on a politician be based on their policies. I see where your coming from in a persons values and morals dictate policy decisions, but what bothers me is attacks on a president based on personal things. Bush's speech patterns or Obama's parentage being reasons for attacking him are ridiculous. I agree that debate about a persons politics are good, but shameless personal attacks are not cool. I am guilty of such attacks. When Bush was in office, I stooped low and did those sort of attacks, but in seeing the similar attacks being pushed on Obama I have seen the error in what I was doing. Perhaps it would have been better if I said attacks on a politician should be based on a persons policies, not his or her personal matters.

I've been fighting for that since day one on these boards....but, I have also re-learned a lesson. That lesson is HOW IMPORTANT, perception is to getting the job done. People's perception is their truth, no matter what the actual truth is......far more goes into that perception than just the facts, than just what we see or hear from the media, far more than numbers that we see.........and it ends up being the most important thing. Therefore how people perceive someone can in truth be the main catalyst in whether or not they are successful in their political careers. That is never going away, and it has to be understood by the politicians. Some understand the it and some don't.
 
Thats true, perception is important. Perception can be a whole lot of grey area though. Maybe I'm just a dreamer who wants things to be ideal.
 
You have a very strong point. I guess where I'm coming from with it is I would prefer to see attacks on a politician be based on their policies. I see where your coming from in a persons values and morals dictate policy decisions, but what bothers me is attacks on a president based on personal things. Bush's speech patterns or Obama's parentage being reasons for attacking him are ridiculous. I agree that debate about a persons politics are good, but shameless personal attacks are not cool. I am guilty of such attacks. When Bush was in office, I stooped low and did those sort of attacks, but in seeing the similar attacks being pushed on Obama I have seen the error in what I was doing. Perhaps it would have been better if I said attacks on a politician should be based on a persons policies, not his or her personal matters.

Oh, I agree with you. Saying things like "Bush is dumb!" (which most of us on these boards, myself included are guilty of) is childish and pointless. Same with "Obama is a Muslim!"
 
Thats true, perception is important. Perception can be a whole lot of grey area though. Maybe I'm just a dreamer who wants things to be ideal.

I'm a realist, and that is a lesson I learned a long time ago, and it has served me well......and if some politicians would learn it, our President included, I think their job would be much easier.
 
I agree Kel. I think our current president is too idealist in what he wants accomplished and he would do wise to come to the realization that you have to compromise to do what right sometimes.
 
I love Nixon's memoirs. He remains the most interesting political figure since Truman, IMO.

In a very Shakespearian-MacBeth sort of tragedy way. He should have been one of the greatest, but his own personal problems, paranoias and obsessions destroyed him. Heavy lies the crown. So much good, but he destroyed himself in Vietnam and most of all betraying the people whose love he wanted so desperately in '72.

I think Clinton and Bush'43 are very interesting characters to dissect. But there wasn't that Nixonian potential in either, but their personal problems that undermined their decisions and legacies are pretty interesting. Obama's biography is also compelling, but as a president--despite all he's doing it is a lot more cut and dry. It lacks that literary flare the last two White House residents have had.
 
This is an interesting discussion though.

To your point, how can politicians really set aside their personal feelings and values from their policies? Take something as simple as taxes. Obama will argue that some people have an obligation to pay higher taxes to support those with lower incomes where as George Bush would argue that the government should not force charity on people and that if you want to have more you should earn it, not look to those who are better off for state sanctioned hand outs.

Who is right and who is wrong? All comes down to your own morality and personal values.

Was it right to invade Iraq in the name of freeing people from a dictator or is freedom valueless unless earned and our soldiers should not be put in danger for the freedom of others? Again, it comes down to personal values.

Character and morality is a factor in politics.

Well on the whole tax thing...if we are serious about reducing the deficit, saving $700 billion over the next 10 years on tax cuts that go to those who will not spend it (but likely save it do to affluent income) leaves the realm of ideology and enters the realm of practicality. And considering Republicans ran on fiscal responsibility you'd think they'd agree with this...if that is what they actually were concerned with. ;)
 
I've been fighting for that since day one on these boards....but, I have also re-learned a lesson. That lesson is HOW IMPORTANT, perception is to getting the job done. People's perception is their truth, no matter what the actual truth is......far more goes into that perception than just the facts, than just what we see or hear from the media, far more than numbers that we see.........and it ends up being the most important thing. Therefore how people perceive someone can in truth be the main catalyst in whether or not they are successful in their political careers. That is never going away, and it has to be understood by the politicians. Some understand the it and some don't.

Unfortunately this is so true. I feel the last five national elections were decided by perceptions of the country and/or issues as opposed to the actual facts. And two of those elections went my party's way. But it is a sad commentary on our democracy that media blitzkriegs have decided (IMO) the last half dozen elections more than anything else.

People then complain about it, but that is what voters constantly respond to.
 
Well on the whole tax thing...if we are serious about reducing the deficit, saving $700 billion over the next 10 years on tax cuts that go to those who will not spend it (but likely save it do to affluent income) leaves the realm of ideology and enters the realm of practicality. And considering Republicans ran on fiscal responsibility you'd think they'd agree with this...if that is what they actually were concerned with. ;)

There is more than one way to be fiscally responsible than just raising taxes.
 
Unfortunately this is so true. I feel the last five national elections were decided by perceptions of the country and/or issues as opposed to the actual facts. And two of those elections went my party's way. But it is a sad commentary on our democracy that media blitzkriegs have decided (IMO) the last half dozen elections more than anything else.

People then complain about it, but that is what voters constantly respond to.


It's human nature. In this fast-paced, inpatient world we live in, people do what in their best interest and respond positively to messages that are comfortable and easy to understand. We don't have time to dissect theory and have Socratic seminars all the time, unless that is a personal interest. I get the sense from Obama that he believes it was necessary to campaign that way but now that he's elected President, he has the power or pully pulpit to lecture and "educate" Americans into this new academic worldview that he's had all his pretty sheltered life.

Lot of people say Bush was stupid, but I think he understands the American people much more clearly and succinctly than Obama. He may not be a great orator or philosopher, but he had a pretty good finger on the American pulse and was able to get lot of legislation (some good some bad) passed because he understands human nature.
 
I've always liked W.
Gettin the book tomorrow
Anyone read it yet? My brother went to one of his event things where he talks at UT Tyler and said he is hilarious and very cool acting and talked about the book and it made it sound really good
 
I think Clinton and Bush'43 are very interesting characters to dissect. But there wasn't that Nixonian potential in either, but their personal problems that undermined their decisions and legacies are pretty interesting. Obama's biography is also compelling, but as a president--despite all he's doing it is a lot more cut and dry. It lacks that literary flare the last two White House residents have had.

I still dont care for W but I have to admit, he would be a fascinating character if this were a novel. The Bush family's obsession with Iraq and Saddam Hussein makes for great drama. Its like something out of Shakespeare. Imagine a witch telling Hussein that he will be ousted by George Bush and he laughs it off. Little does he know that he will be taken from power by George Bush Jr.
 
There is more than one way to be fiscally responsible than just raising taxes.

...Not if you want actually bring down the deficit without cutting Defense or Medicare. ;)

It's human nature. In this fast-paced, inpatient world we live in, people do what in their best interest and respond positively to messages that are comfortable and easy to understand. We don't have time to dissect theory and have Socratic seminars all the time, unless that is a personal interest. I get the sense from Obama that he believes it was necessary to campaign that way but now that he's elected President, he has the power or pully pulpit to lecture and "educate" Americans into this new academic worldview that he's had all his pretty sheltered life.

Lot of people say Bush was stupid, but I think he understands the American people much more clearly and succinctly than Obama. He may not be a great orator or philosopher, but he had a pretty good finger on the American pulse and was able to get lot of legislation (some good some bad) passed because he understands human nature.

Obama had a sheltered life? He grew up in poverty, lived in Indonesia and before going into academia and politics he worked on Wall Street, the ghettos of Chicago, and spent months in Europe and Africa.

I would honestly say of our last two presidents, Bush was the much more sheltered man who was born in New Haven, CT and lived among the political and financial elite of Texas before paying his way into Yale, Harvard Business, and out of the draft. He didn't hold a stable job until he quit drinking at 40.

But Bush is much more affable to the working class. He less of an intellectual, academic type. Obama likes to think, analyze and study an issue. Bush prefers broad summaries and making his decisions from "the gut." He is intellectually incurious, but he knows how to talk to working class white people, unlike our current commander-in-chief. Karl Rove groomed him to speak in soundbytes and folksy truisms that play well on peoples' emotion. And getting people to emotionally agree with you, helps them overlook terrible logic.

These different thought processes allow Bush to reach people's emotions and their hearts. Obama tries to engage people intellectually which is not working.
 
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I have no problem with cutting on both of those....
 
I went by a bookstore today and had some coffee while skim-reading the 40-some pages devoted to the lead-up to the war. What I found most interesting was that he never actually describes articulately why he decided Iraq was on his radar.

He admits he was drawing up war plans for Iraq as early as December 2001 and having Gen. Tommy Franks draw up invasion plans. This affected the "light footprint" approach in Afghanistan that led to zero-nation building (hence our quagmire now) and not enough force in Tora Bora to capture Osama bin Laden. He states that they had to explore all potential threats and that Saddam Hussein had basically been on the US radar since the 1980s when they invaded Iran (he omits that we were helping him, then).

And that is fine, but what elevates Saddam over Iran, North Korea, Yeomen, Somolia, Lebanon, Syria and the Sudan? What made Iraq so crucial other than our history with him...under his father's legacy? He explains systematically why Saddam was an evil, evil despot-dictator. But there are dozens of them in the world. Why did we zero in on this one? Because invading a country due to a dictator who kills his own people means we should be invading about 1/5 of the world's nations.

He talks about WMD. And says the intelligence was iron clad and despite saying he didn't want to do "nasty finger pointing" at the CIA, he does blame them. What he omits is that his strongest evidence of Saddam attempting to buy yellowcake uranium from Africa had been disproven by both the CIA and MI6 by late 2002. George Tenet, who Bush places a lot of indirect blame at, told Bush to not use this in his State of the Union in 2003, as it was misleading and trumped up the case for war.

Bush used it anyway. When Ambassador Joe Wilson proved as much that year, the Vice President's staff and Karl Rove outed his CIA agent wife as punishment. None of this is acknowledged.

He is also incredibly misleading about Iraq's connections to terrorists. He mentions a anti-Israeli terrorist with connections to al-Qaeda may have been in Northern Iraq, but there was no evidence he was working with Saddam's regime. In fact, it is almost unthinkable as Saddam was a secular dictator who hated religious fanatacism, as he viewed it as a threat--like the Ayatollahs in Iran he went to war with, or the Kurds who he gassed. At the end of the chapter, Bush implies as much that Saddam may one day in the distant future have united with al-Qaeda out of convenience to work against the *****e government of Iran.

This implies he knows there is no real connection between terrorists and Iraq. Rather, the chance that they may have begun working together years in the future, even though there is no actual evidence that would ever happen and runs against Saddam's entire governance-style, was enough. And at the end he sums up his justification for war as that Saddam might have become a threat...one day. By that logic we should invade Cuba and China tomorrow. Truman should have bombed the Soviet Union and started WWIII. It rings incredibly false.

I honestly believe he had an obsession with Saddam Hussein and no matter what, he was going to invade. He speaks of how Rumsfeld and Cheney wanted to begin bombing in summer 2002 and were ready for blood. Dick Cheney said to his president, "Are you going to kill this guy or not," according to the president's own memoir. This was the atmosphere he was in. He writes he approached Colin Powell for full support of war in March 2003...over a year late. What else would the Sec. of State say to a man who prefers yes, men.

What I think it boils down to was when he reviews the Gulf War, he notes that his father could have gone all the way to Baghdad (and he wanted him to), but he didn't because that is not how he framed the war for the American people. He basically said Bush'41 didn't invade Iraq, because he promised the UN and American people that it was to prevent genocide in Kuwait. He viewed it as a PR problem. In short, he viewed Saddam in need of overthrow, but deduced his father lacked the political capital to do what is necessary.

No. Bush'41, Colin Powell, and ironically Dick Cheney, decided that Iraq was a quagmire not worth the nation building sink hole it would become. Bush'43 viewed taking Saddam out as a chance to finish the job his father couldn't. That is why he was making plans for invasion two months after 9/11, instead of focusing on al-Qaeda and Afghanistan. That is why he was so willing to believe in WMD (I don't think he was intentionally lying, he convinced himself it was there no matter what hesitations the intelligence community had), because that is what he needed to finally take out the man who tried to assassinate his father.

And the 4,000 dead Americans, tens of thousands injured, 80-some thousand dead Iraqis and our exploded deficit paid the price. A price that put us in a position of weakness in regards to the genocides of Darfur and the crazed ambitions of Iran's government. And he still does not get that.
 
I have no problem with cutting on both of those....

Well all the Republicans and most of the Democrats in Washington do.

So, saving $700 billion that are being wasted on tax cuts for people who don't need them seems like a bright idea. Write a law that requires all of the money goes straight into paying off the debt, as opposed to paying for new programs or laws is fine. But if you aren't willing to cut the Bush Tax Cut for the top 2 percent, nor cutting our ridiculous Defense budget...then you're not interested in fiscal responsibility. You're just a Republican politician. :oldrazz:
 
Except for the fact that that tax increase would lead to more jobs being loss, requiring more people to rely upon the government's dime.
 
I can't help but wonder how much of that money actually ended up going towards hiring by companies. Something tells me that companies would be more inclined to hold on to what they've got in harsh economic times rather than spend the way the political right seem to think they have/will.
 
Even so, more money in the hands of the private sector is better than all of it going to the public sector. That company may hold on to it, invest it, expand, hire, or whatever they want with it. No it isn't a guarantee that they will hire but there is a larger chance that they will than if you take all of that money away. That is especially naive during a recession. Nobody raises taxes during a recession.
 
Except for the fact that that tax increase would lead to more jobs being loss, requiring more people to rely upon the government's dime.

Less than 10 percent of small businesses would be affected. That is a snow job. But, fine. Why not agree to have them expire in 2 years as a compromise? Most economists say we have now avoided a double dip and are going to be in a better place in 2012. Separate the two and make the tax cuts permanent for 98% of Americans and have the other 2% expire on 1/1/2013.

We'd still save over $600 billion that could go to deficit reduction. If you don't support that, you're not serious.
 
I am fine with extending them another two years. Then we can see where we are at then. But once the economy is great again, unemployment is 4-5%, the dollar is stronger, etc...then we need to raise taxes on everybody. We can't keep lowering taxes forever to fight off recessions. Sooner or later we will be down to single digits. But, we also need to decrease the size and waste in the government or we will continue to add on to the debt until we default and we are where Greece is and our fall will cause the fall of the world economy. Greater tax revenue does not mean greater government spending.
 
I am fine with extending them another two years. Then we can see where we are at then. But once the economy is great again, unemployment is 4-5%, the dollar is stronger, etc...then we need to raise taxes on everybody. We can't keep lowering taxes forever to fight off recessions. Sooner or later we will be down to single digits. But, we also need to decrease the size and waste in the government or we will continue to add on to the debt until we default and we are where Greece is. Except with us, we will cause the entire world economy to collapse if we collapse.

At this point, that sounds like a pipe dream...
 
Even so, more money in the hands of the private sector is better than all of it going to the public sector. That company may hold on to it, invest it, expand, hire, or whatever they want with it. No it isn't a guarantee that they will hire but there is a larger chance that they will than if you take all of that money away. That is especially naive during a recession. Nobody raises taxes during a recession.
The tendency to spend that money on economy-growing endeavors needs to be quantified so that an actual cost-benefit analysis can be performed. Otherwise, we're both just blowing hot air.

What effect did the Bush tax cuts have upon and just after their implementation?
 
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