The European Union

Yes, that is the essential difference between the EEC and the EU, aside from the latter being granted potentially autocratic supremacy over national parliaments.
You are aware that socialism is an economic system that involves the state-planning and ownership of industry. The EU is like.....the complete opposite of that. What you're saying is as baseless as American conservatives calling Obama a socialist. If the EU were socialist, Karl Marx would be spinning in his grave.

The EU is essentially taking the EEC to the next natural level, combining already existing cooperation into a single coherent organization. The leaders with power within the EU are leaders who gained power democratically in their home states, it's not like Angela Merkel just assumed power out of nowhere. Francois Hollande didn't just assume power out of nowhere. They were democratically elected.

There's a EU Parliament, which isn't as powerful as it should be, but still has an important role in the legislative matters of the EU. And EU Commissioners are appointed by the member-states, all of which are democracies. The EU is not some imaginary autocratic organization that you make it out to be. The EU won't allow autocratic states like Belarus join, they have to be democratic states.

And take a look at what they've been forcing Greece to implement reforms in order to liberalize their labor markets, the selling of state-owned assets to private owners, and try to make them more competitive on the free market. The EU has always been about liberal economics and removal of trade barriers from the freedom of movement of capital, goods, and people, the removal of tariffs, the creation of the common market, the harmonization of regulations, etc. But I guess the free market is dirty ****ing socialism apparently.
 
This is why I conjoined socialist with corporatist, which is the EU model of tempered capitalism. The successive power grabs made by the unelected institutions have given them primacy over the minutiae of an array of matters that constitute social policy, all of which combine neatly with the judicial activism of the ECJ to amount to a model of social reform without a democratic mandate. This is particularly notable on issues of "equality" and employment law, but legal bases in the treaties such as freedom of movement are also used to creep towards control of nation states' economic policies to produce socialist outcomes- note that we must now extend full unemployment and housing benefits to recent migrants who have no family connections to their chosen state.

The EU is extraordinarily undemocratic, not just as a result of the structure of its institutions, but also because it has no effective rule of law and, as you have pointed out, its more powerful constituents just make up the rules as they go along. The Commissioners are not appointed by member states, but are nominated, before being vetted by the Commission itself. Ideological purity is one of the important criteria, and the ideology preferred includes commitment to "ever closer union", which is just what most Europeans oppose. Furthermore, the Commission has overwhelming power within the EU (Germany's diktats are the only thing which trumps it). The Commission has legislative initiative, allowing it to set the agenda as well as the detail of the EU's program, to which the EP may only benignly assent. Should the EP reject a proposal, it just reflexes back to the Commission to try again. Further, the Commission has full powers of enforcement, and acts as chief prosecutor. It is also the EU's civil service. There is no more over-powered and unaccountable institution in the nominally free world.

Were that not bad enough, much of the decision making process in reality occurs outside the treaty-mandated institutions. Firstly, the Commission is continually lobbied and bribed through trilogues, the loudest voices of which are the larger European corporations which the EU unfailingly protects. Secondly, the ECJ regularly annexes power to itself, often resulting in huge quasi-constitutional changes without any democratic mandate. The classic judgment is Van Gend En Loos, in which the ECJ gave EU legislation direct effect on individuals within member states, and naturally gave itself jurisdiction over this. But that is just one of many. Finally, when things get a bit nasty and there is no clear legal basis for the EU to get rough with a member state, the rules as they are can simply be ignored. We see that with the German finance minister threatening Greece with suspension (no legal basis), the ECB suspending liquidity (despite the ESF, and with no legal basis and, worst of all, treaties that have been democratically rejected again and again being implemented anyway (c/f the "Constitutional Treaty", now the Lisbon treaty).

The EU represents the takeover of a benign free trade arrangement between democratic states by a unaccountable bureaucratic class which pervades the institutions and which is committed to a creeping, undemocratic centralisation of power, and to using that power to enforce an outdated social and corporatist agenda. It is now very different from a free trade area, and it is going to become more different still. The commitment to "ever closer union" is, in itself, taken as license for the institutions to grab more and more power and to legislate or regulate everything they possibly can.
 
On the subject of trilogues -

"In truth, the trialogue meetings themselves are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to secret lawmaking." (Source).

The € has been as bad for Italy as for Greece - (The Washington Post)
 
http://abcnews.go.com/International/united-kingdom-votes-leave-european-union-latest-numbers/story?id=40094587

United Kingdom Votes to Leave European Union


The United Kingdom voted in a referendum Thursday to leave the European Union, according to the United Kingdom Electoral Commission.

The “Leave” side garnered 51.9 percent of the vote, while the “Remain” side garnered 48.1 percent, according to the commission. The financial markets reacted quickly to the results: Around 8 a.m. local time, the British stock market had plunged 7.7 percent and the German index had fallen 10 percent, according to The Associated Press.
 
As everyone who has taken interest in my view on this will know, I have long been an advocate of withdrawal from an EU project which was born a trade agreement but grew into a presumptive government.

I know there are difficult times ahead, but I do for once in my life feel that ours is a genuine democracy.
 
As everyone who has taken interest in my view on this will know, I have long been an advocate of withdrawal from an EU project which was born a trade agreement but grew into a presumptive government.

I know there are difficult times ahead, but I do for once in my life feel that ours is a genuine democracy.
A great day for Democracy and sovereignty. :up:

Congrats and thank you! This vote has changed everything. I would certainly call this a pivotal moment in history.
 
Certainly seems like a pivotal event in bad decisions, nevermind that almost every single economist advised against this decision...
 
That sentence doesn't really mean anything, but in any case, most of us who voted to leave the EU were prepared to be somewhat poorer in order to regain our sovereignty.

Financial institutions and global businesses want little more than political stability, which doesn't always sit easily with democracy. Goldman Sachs would certainly rather have a global empire overseen by a benign dictator than a world of parliaments, legislatures and voters. Well, I am content to take their scorn as well as any fiscal "consequences" there may be. At least our elections and our parliament mean something again.
 
i think is very necessary a union,to face russia in a new cold war,we never knows but need a new union , nato is very weak
 
The EU is weaker, though, and has weakened NATO. Europeans prefer to wag their fingers at America when it attempts to obviate a humanitarian crisis, and to spend their measly revenues on propping up inefficient farms and zombie banks rather than protecting their own borders.
 
The EU has weakened NATO for sure. I also happen to think the EU is ****e in most ways. But it being overall ****e doesn't automatically mean that life is better outside the club.
 
And another one bites the dust....

It doesn't have to become Five Star next right? Fall to fascism/populism....?
 
This might be a stretch, but given that the same fight almost is going on in Britain that's going on in the US. Is there any way to join hands across country divides in fighting a similar kind of evil? They might not be, but I figured I'd ask to see if there's any anti-Brexit who might have any ideas? Different kind of fight, but there seems to be similarities.
 
The two situations are similar in only the most superficial details. I heartily remind that you read up on some of this stuff before making such blundering assertions.

Britons who want a more qualified Brexit should write to their MP to advise them of this.

Americans who want to constrain or remove President Trump should support Democrats in future elections.

Please just grow up a little and reflect that democracy is not merely a matter of your preferred views being supported and given effect without challenge or reversal.
 
Americans who want to constrain or remove President Trump should support Democrats in future elections.

Please just grow up a little and reflect that democracy is not merely a matter of your preferred views being supported and given effect without challenge or reversal.

This goes overall:

I would tell you to grow up by forcing Democrats as the only option available. That precise way of thinking is what caused this election to blow up and lead to Trump. This Democrat superiority way of thinking. Keep that up and I guarantee there will unfortunately be another Trump. Mistakes are made so that you don't repeat them, the mistake here is democrat superiority.

I voted for Hillary, but only because I didn't like Trump and saw it as a vote against Trump rather than a vote for Hillary. I have more in common with non-voters, 3rd party voters, as well as the "lesser of two evils" Hillary and Trump voters than I do Democrats. Because like a growing number of people in this country, and increasingly the world, I do not believe in blindly following the establishment. You'd be wise to wake up and see what is going on here if Democrats ever want to salvage how the party has been divided. If Democrats don't learn that this time around, god help us all come 2020 unless there's a revolution against both parties (which I would personally love to see). Democrats need to open their eyes to what the people ARE saying if they want to fix what happened. And you can't say people aren't saying that because results and statistics of this election speaks for itself, if that wasn't the case more would have voted, less would have switched parties, and Hillary would have won. That, however, is not what happened. The more people say "nope, Democrats are right and everyone else is wrong - these years were great" the more the party is going to splinter - that never gets allies.

What I'm saying is both largely seem to be part of the same anti-establishment wave of thinking. It's taking on bigotry in some parts of the world as well, but that feels like a different element rather than something that's intrinsic to it. Trump's not necessarily the problem in these regards, but the result of something much larger that's going on - and when Americans see that was just talk, many will turn against him (and most likely the Republican party as well). I'm pretty sure if the choices were Trump v Hillary v breaking away from establishment and finding something new, that third option would have been the winner.
 
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The problem with most institutions or bureaucracies is they don't change fast enough with the needs of the times. While it may be a good practice to slow down massive continent spanning changes so that all sides of an issue are considered, it doesn't seem to work in practice in the modern world.

A system like the EU wasn't designed for the current globalized world we live in with the internet, mass migration and an interlinked global economy. In theory it's a good idea, but it needs to be overhauled to fit the times and I just don't see that happening, at least not in the short term in a positive way.
 
Would you say that means unity, division or something else as said overhaul?
 

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