The European Union

[herakles]

Ummmm.....yeah. Again, this is the whole emotional thing getting in the way. That is not their motive.


Prices would have still risen without the EU and if anything because of Greece's import dependent economy, goods would have most likely been more expensive because of things like tariffs and other barriers to trade in place. Mortgages existed well before the Eurozone, even in Greece. And many countries in the EU have immigration problems, ask Germany, France, and the UK.

Goods like clothes and gas has always been expensive in Greece but things like food and housing was cheap until the Euro came.

Greece is going to be used as an example to the others as to what will happen if you don't play by the rules and act like a petulant child the way SYRIZA has.

Making an example is one thing but turning a proud people into indentured servants will push Greece towards Russia. Frankly with the way Greece and Greek people have historically been treated by Modern Europe I almost welcome that! Cyprus has been divided for 40 years and the EU have not done anything to end that even though EU land is occupied by a NON-EU country!

 

[hippie_hunter]

Goods like clothes and gas has always been expensive in Greece but things like food and housing was cheap until the Euro came.

But they weren't always going to be cheap. Greece has become very dependent on imports for their food, even on products that Greece is famous for like tomatoes, lamb, and olive oil. Consumer trends have changed now thanks to the wonders of modern agricultural advancements demand everything year round as opposed to when they should be in season. As a result, Greece imports more food than it produces. Without the European Union, agriculture from stronger agricultural powers in the EU like Germany, Spain, and France, would cost more for Greece due to tariffs, currency exchanges, and other barriers to trade. Greece has also been a very big beneficiary to the EU's CAP policy, imagine how Greek farmers would have fared without the EU's agricultural subsidies.

Housing also became more expensive due to increased demand. Again, not the euro's fault.

Making an example is one thing but turning a proud people into indentured servants will push Greece towards Russia. Frankly with the way Greece and Greek people have historically been treated by Modern Europe I almost welcome that! Cyprus has been divided for 40 years and the EU have not done anything to end that even though EU land is occupied by a NON-EU country!

The US won't allow Greece to go towards Russia. And Russia can pretend to be a serious power all it wants.

 

[regwec]

What do you propose the US would do to prevent that happening? I fear that the US is beginning to be perceived as a paper tiger.

 

[regwec]

The € is doing the opposite of that for which it was intended - The Economist

 

[herakles]

But they weren't always going to be cheap. Greece has become very dependent on imports for their food, even on products that Greece is famous for like tomatoes, lamb, and olive oil. Consumer trends have changed now thanks to the wonders of modern agricultural advancements demand everything year round as opposed to when they should be in season. As a result, Greece imports more food than it produces. Without the European Union, agriculture from stronger agricultural powers in the EU like Germany, Spain, and France, would cost more for Greece due to tariffs, currency exchanges, and other barriers to trade. Greece has also been a very big beneficiary to the EU's CAP policy, imagine how Greek farmers would have fared without the EU's agricultural subsidies.

Housing also became more expensive due to increased demand. Again, not the euro's fault.

Most of this started AFTER Greece Adopted the Euro.

The US won't allow Greece to go towards Russia. And Russia can pretend to be a serious power all it wants.

The current US Administration lacks the will to do anything except arm Arab Spring "rebels", allow Iran to have the bomb and attack Israel.

Obama couldn't stop Putin from invading Ukriane and he would not be able to stop Greece from moving closer to Russia.

Hell Turkey just bombed Kurdish positions in Northern Iraq over the weekend and they are the people who are fighting ISIS for us and you think President Obama is going to be to do anything to make the Turks stop?

 

[hippie_hunter]

But again, they would have stull happened even without the euro.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I don't think you can compare Russia invading Ukraine to bringing Greece into it's orbit. One is a military invasion, the other leaves a lot more room to negotiate. Going into Ukraine might well start World War III. Historically, Ukraine has been Russia's backyard / satellite.

Greeks are Western looking. All America has to do is make out a cheque.

And if there's one thing Obama is good at it, it's writing cheques. Cheques you usually can't cash (remember the red line?) but cheques nonetheless.

 

[regwec]

Greece is not indisputably "Western looking"; anti-globalisation is a genuine force there, with the rise of the far left and right hinting at something other than a desire for membership of a liberal Western macro economy. It is evident that Russia is the last card left for a desperate people to play, however, and it would be difficult to censure Greece for playing it. After all, a shift towards Russia would be gradual and ostensibly peaceful- we would not see missile silos appearing on Crete.

 

[regwec]

"...the European institutions led by Germany seem to have decided that waging an ideological battle against a recalcitrant and amateurish far-left government in Greece should take precedence over 60 years of European consensus built painstakingly by leaders across the political spectrum."

I recommend this thoughtful and balanced piece in the New York Times to everyone.

 

[herakles]

I don't think you can compare Russia invading Ukraine to bringing Greece into it's orbit. One is a military invasion, the other leaves a lot more room to negotiate. Going into Ukraine might well start World War III. Historically, Ukraine has been Russia's backyard / satellite.

Greeks are Western looking. All America has to do is make out a cheque.

And if there's one thing Obama is good at it, it's writing cheques. Cheques you usually can't cash (remember the red line?) but cheques nonetheless.

No I wasn't but what I was trying to say is that the US can not stop anyone from doing anything. This President lacks the conviction to do anything except pander to the Leftists in the US who have become increasingly Marxist.

 

[Mechanix]

No I wasn't but what I was trying to say is that the US can not stop anyone from doing anything. This President lacks the conviction to do anything except pander to the Leftists in the US who have become increasingly Marxist.

You can't be serious.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Name me one Marxist thing that Obama has done?

 

[Thundercrack85]

No I wasn't but what I was trying to say is that the US can not stop anyone from doing anything. This President lacks the conviction to do anything except pander to the Leftists in the US who have become increasingly Marxist.

Marxist? I pray for the day. America could use some leftists to balance out the far right. Declaring yourself a socialist is political suicide outside of maybe New England and California.

 

[Red Mask]

But they weren't always going to be cheap. Greece has become very dependent on imports for their food, even on products that Greece is famous for like tomatoes, lamb, and olive oil. Consumer trends have changed now thanks to the wonders of modern agricultural advancements demand everything year round as opposed to when they should be in season. As a result, Greece imports more food than it produces. Without the European Union, agriculture from stronger agricultural powers in the EU like Germany, Spain, and France, would cost more for Greece due to tariffs, currency exchanges, and other barriers to trade. Greece has also been a very big beneficiary to the EU's CAP policy, imagine how Greek farmers would have fared without the EU's agricultural subsidies.

Once again, Asian markets don't need Greece to import such products. Heck, many olive oil products already come in from Spain, Israel, Italy, and Australia.

 

[regwec]

There appears to be a misconception that €urozone members would erect trade barriers against Greece if it left, and that Greece would no longer benefit from the CAP etc. That is wrong on two points. Firstly, it would be illegal as Greece would remain in the EU: the EU and the € are not the same thing. Secondly, trade barriers would be in noone's interests. Why would anyone want to sell less to Greece? Petty vengeance?

Oh wait...

 

[hippie_hunter]

There appears to be a misconception that €urozone members would erect trade barriers against Greece if it left, and that Greece would no longer benefit from the CAP etc. That is wrong on two points. Firstly, it would be illegal as Greece would remain in the EU: the EU and the € are not the same thing. Secondly, trade barriers would be in noone's interests. Why would anyone want to sell less to Greece? Petty vengeance?

Oh wait...

But the EU is a trade bloc first and foremost. You're right that trade barriers would be in no one's interests, but being kicked out of the EU as a result of being kicked out of the Eurozone means that those barriers would be restored because it is no longer a part of that free trade zone. It would have to reapply to join the European market through the European Economic Area and European Free Trade Association, things like that take time. And without being a part of the EU, Greece isn't going to have access to privileges of being an EU member-state like CAP funds.

Your logic here just isn't sound. Without being a member of the EU, Greece isn't going to have the benefits of being an EU member-state. It's the same issue that Scotland was going to face if it became independent, it would have to reapply for everything. It's not because the EU are meanies, but because those are the rules plain and simple.

 

[regwec]

No, that's incorrect. You are confusing two issues-

1) The € and the EU. There are EU members that do not use the €; by leaving the €, Greece would join them. It would still be a "full" member of the EU, with all of its non-monetary pros and cons continuing to apply. CAAP etc would still apply.

2) Even if it left the EU, Greece would still be Greece as a political entity. It was a signatory to every treaty prior to Lisbon (which created the EU), and the legal relationship between the states thus enshrined would continue until expressly modified. Scotland is a different case, as "Scotland" has never been a signatory to any of the treaties. From the perspective of the EU institutions, Scotland would be an unknown quantity, and would therefore need to start from scratch. Free movement of goods has been a key principle since the 1950s-60s, and would continue to involve Greece.

I do not rule out the possibility that the German axis would spit out its dummy and try to enact some kind of lopsided trade war with Greece as a means of warning other member states not to get uppity, but it wouldn't have a legal basis for doing so.

 

[herakles]

But the EU is a trade bloc first and foremost. You're right that trade barriers would be in no one's interests, but being kicked out of the EU as a result of being kicked out of the Eurozone means that those barriers would be restored because it is no longer a part of that free trade zone. It would have to reapply to join the European market through the European Economic Area and European Free Trade Association, things like that take time. And without being a part of the EU, Greece isn't going to have access to privileges of being an EU member-state like CAP funds.

Your logic here just isn't sound. Without being a member of the EU, Greece isn't going to have the benefits of being an EU member-state. It's the same issue that Scotland was going to face if it became independent, it would have to reapply for everything. It's not because the EU are meanies, but because those are the rules plain and simple.

Being kicked out of Eurozone equals being kicked out the EU? Both are not the same. England is part of the EU but not the Eurozone.

 

[herakles]

Marxist? I pray for the day. America could use some leftists to balance out the far right. Declaring yourself a socialist is political suicide outside of maybe New England and California.

Yeah gotta love those Marxists like Che, Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, and Jung family.

 

[hippie_hunter]

No, that's incorrect. You are confusing two issues-

1) The € and the EU. There are EU members that do not use the €; by leaving the €, Greece would join them. It would still be a "full" member of the EU, with all of its non-monetary pros and cons continuing to apply. CAAP etc would still apply.

2) Even if it left the EU, Greece would still be Greece as a political entity. It was a signatory to every treaty prior to Lisbon (which created the EU), and the legal relationship between the states thus enshrined would continue until expressly modified. Scotland is a different case, as "Scotland" has never been a signatory to any of the treaties. From the perspective of the EU institutions, Scotland would be an unknown quantity, and would therefore need to start from scratch. Free movement of goods has been a key principle since the 1950s-60s, and would continue to involve Greece.

I do not rule out the possibility that the German axis would spit out its dummy and try to enact some kind of lopsided trade war with Greece as a means of warning other member states not to get uppity, but it wouldn't have a legal basis for doing so.

The basic assumption is that if Greece gets kicked out of the Eurozone, it will also get kicked out of the EU.

Being kicked out of Eurozone equals being kicked out the EU? Both are not the same. England is part of the EU but not the Eurozone.

You are right that both are not the same, but the way EU ratified law is set up, Greece getting kicked out of the Eurozone would also mean that Greece would get kicked out of the EU. Due to the circumstances of the debt crisis, Greece has been threatened with EU expulsion a couple of times like when the New Democracy government tried to propose a referendum on austerity.

The reason why the United Kingdom is not a part of the Eurozone is because it was given a special exemption to joining the Eurozone along with Denmark. All other EU member-states are obliged to join though. A member-state of the EU, that is not England or Denmark, cannot be a member of the EU without being a part of the Eurozone. Once this crisis is done, I would not be surprised to see the EU start taking steps to get the resisting members (Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Sweden) on board. And Denmark will probably eventually fall in line as well.

 

[regwec]

Firstly, please can you point to the article in the TFEU which suggests that continued use of the Euro is integral to membership of the EU? It's existence would make German posturing over Geek suspension all the more surprising, as that would represent a unilateral constructive dismissal from the EU, which would completely undermine all of the pretended legal bases of the treaties and expose rule of law within the institutions as a sham.

Secondly, nobody is insane enough to join the Euro now. Forget it. It is highly doubtful that its existing users would want it further destabilized by expansion to more distant and diverse economies.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Firstly, please can you point to the article in the TFEU which suggests that continued use of the Euro is integral to membership of the EU? It's existence would make German posturing over Geek suspension all the more surprising, as that would represent a unilateral constructive dismissal from the EU, which would completely undermine all of the pretended legal bases of the treaties and expose rule of law within the institutions as a sham.

There aren't any articles that involve expulsion from the Eurozone either, but the EU was willing to kick Greece out as well. They didn't foresee something like this happening and in this case, the EU has demonstrated that they are willing to create new precedents to ensure that one member doesn't sink the entire ship. Also according to the EU itself, all member-states, with the exception of the United Kingdom and Denmark are required to be a member of the Eurozone. Therefore, the EU itself has declared that use of the Euro is integral to EU membership.

Secondly, nobody is insane enough to join the Euro now. Forget it. It is highly doubtful that its existing users would want it further destabilized by expansion to more distant and diverse economies.

Your anti-EU bias is now just making you outright delusional. Lithuania literally just joined the Eurozone months ago. Croatia, Romania, and Bulgaria are making slow but steady moves to join the Eurozone. Denmark, while hindered by lack of popular movement to join the Eurozone, is still making moves to make them closer to the euro by joining the EU's banking union.

The only true country that has been outright belligerent to joining the Eurozone, has been Hungary. And of course Poland and the Czech Republic are being cautious and have political situations that hinder them from joining despite having pro-Eurozone leaders.

 

[regwec]

By creating new precedents, you mean making it up as they go along. There is no rule of law within the institutions. Germany calls the shots, and smaller members have no rights if their interests conflict. Once again, we return to the theme that the EU as a mythology is dead. The treaties are meaningless, so no-one need abide by them.

On the second point, say and do are quite different in a European context. The Euro has been exposed as an insolvency machine, and only those with a dangerously volatile currency would go near it. Germany may try to force it on weaker neighbours, but tardiness in acquiescence is ample indication of prevalent scepticism.

Trust me, nobody of sound mind wants to be subsumed by your socialist/corporatist post-democratic future. It is a failed experiment, for which the European people have never had any enthusiasm. Those of us who prefer a Europe based on free trade, freedom, and national sovereignty will revert to an EEC-type agreement at the earliest convenience.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Socialist

 

[regwec]

Yes, that is the essential difference between the EEC and the EU, aside from the latter being granted potentially autocratic supremacy over national parliaments.