The European Union

[herakles]

Wow, wtf? I was trying to have a civil conversation with you. Yeesh.

I don't live in Germany. I'm a Canadian citizen. I've never travelled to Greece.

You completely mis-read the tone of my post.

Your response to Greece and Greek's plight was cold, emotionless and callous all of which are considered a "stereotypical" German type response.

 

[Mechanix]

@Mecnix

The EU is a corrupt government, so it should come naturally.

Two issues. Firstly, what do you think is the alternative to respecting the democratic mandate of the elected government of a member state? Secondly, the terms of the bailout are fantasy. Nobody thinks they are achievable, not even the IMF who are supposed to be providing much of the funding. Greece alone, however, will suffer all the pain. I'm afraid your delight in Greece's humiliation is exposing your authoritarian streak.

First of all, it's Mechanix.

I wasn't talking about an alternative to respecting the government. I really don't get how you come up with these responses. Do you even read and understand what I write?

I was talking about the Greek government having to deal with the bailout terms. I wasn't somehow suggesting that the EU go into Greece and stage a coup. Respecting a government's legitimacy does not mean being lenient towards them. They've proven their corruption and complete incompetence when it comes to managing their country's finances so they have no leg to stand on when negotiating the deal. You can't be blatantly corrupt as a government and then scream about the unfairness of it all when you receive the terms of a 3rd bailout. And yes, the Greek people will suffer. They would have regardless. At least this way, there are conditions to be met in order to better their reputation.

I'm not taking any delight in this. I don't have an authoritarian streak. You need to stop. Like hippie pointed out, when you have nothing left to say, you resort to demonizing Germany and Germans. Good one

 

[Mechanix]

Your response to Greece and Greek plight was cold, and callous all of which is a German type response.

I was talking about its government. I'm not talking about its people.

Amazingly, the people and their government are not the same thing. Citizens make mistakes when they elect their leaders. It happens all the time. I'm not saying that the Greek government is representative of its people. I have no sympathy for the government.

 

[herakles]

I was talking about its government. I'm not talking about its people.

Amazingly, the people and their government are not the same thing. Citizens make mistakes when they elect their leaders. It happens all the time. I'm not saying that the Greek government is representative of its people. I have no sympathy for the government.

I agree but it is NOT the government that is starving, It is NOT the government that is selling her body so she can feed her children. it is not the government that is now homeless. The Government officials who caused this are NOT suffering at all! It is the average Athenian who is suffering.

 

[Mechanix]

I agree but it is NOT the government that is starving, It is NOT the government that is selling her body so she can feed her children. it is not the government that is now homeless. The Government officials who caused this are NOT suffering at all! It is the average Athenian who is suffering.

I know. But it's not the people that the bailout money is being given to. It's a bad situation, for sure.

I don't see exiting the Euro to be the best option.

 

[regwec]

First of all, it's Mechanix.

I wasn't talking about an alternative to respecting the government. I really don't get how you come up with these responses. Do you even read and understand what I write?

I was talking about the Greek government having to deal with the bailout terms. I wasn't somehow suggesting that the EU go into Greece and stage a coup. Respecting a government's legitimacy does not mean being lenient towards them. They've proven their corruption and complete incompetence when it comes to managing their country's finances so they have no leg to stand on when negotiating the deal. You can't be blatantly corrupt as a government and then scream about the unfairness of it all when you receive the terms of a 3rd bailout. And yes, the Greek people will suffer. They would have regardless. At least this way, there are conditions to be met in order to better their reputation.

I'm not taking any delight in this. I don't have an authoritarian streak. You need to stop. Like hippie pointed out, when you have nothing left to say, you resort to demonizing Germany and Germans. Good one

Au contraire, you would be well advised to take care what you write. You have implied many things, perhaps unwittingly. For one, I don't consider you to be synonymous with Germany, particularly as you are at pains to protest that you are Canadian. For another, you cannot imply that respect for democratic elections is conditional, then boo-hoo when invited to expand on that rather sinister implication.

 

[herakles]

I know. But it's not the people that the bailout money is being given to. It's a bad situation, for sure.

I don't see exiting the Euro to be the best option.

You think more bailout money will help? The IMF does not believe this will end well if there is no debt forgiveness. So since the Germens are hell bent on breaking Greece, Greece should just leave! Atleast they will be able to use their own money.

 

[Mechanix]

Au contraire, you would be well advised to take care what you write. You have implied many things, perhaps unwittingly. For one, I don't consider you to be synonymous with Germany, particularly as you are at pains to protest that you are Canadian. For another, you cannot imply that respect for democratic elections is conditional, then boo-hoo when invited to expand on that rather sinister implication.

No, you come to your own asinine conclusions from what people write and then assume you know what they meant to say. You clearly do not know. You posted once that I shared the views of old German nationalists (and then promptly edited your post). I know what you're implying and you continue to do so here.

I mentioned once that I'm a Canadian citizen and that means I'm "at pains to protest"? What does that even mean?

I don't think we're talking about "respect" in the same sense.

I'm pretty sure you're just baiting me into losing it on you and getting banned, so I won't reply anymore. I don't feel like putting up with pompous attitudes.

 

[Mechanix]

You think more bailout money will help? The IMF does not believe this will end well if there is no debt forgiveness. So since the Germens are hell bent on breaking Greece, Greece should just leave! Atleast they will be able to use their own money.

It's not just the Germans. The rest of the EU is pissed, too. And some countries called for even harsher penalties.

Hippie_Hunter already posted why Greece having their own currency would leave it in a worse state. There is nothing more I need to say.

 

[Red Mask]

Again devaluation only works if Greece has an export economy to handle it. Greece doesn't produce very much on the global market. In this case devaluation will only hurt Greece more.

Agreed. Greece has little to offer international markets, even if they return to the drachma and devalue. They don't have anything unique that they need or isn't sold anywhere else! They need to innovate.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Ah, thank you.

Sounds tense. I'm surprised Greece didn't try (or maybe they did and failed) to play the NATO card or even the we'll-be-friends-with-Russia card when negotiating their bailout terms.

They did play the "We'll be friends with Russia" card. They made a pipeline deal with Russia just a few weeks ago and Tsprias has been rather warm to Putin as well while the other EU member-states have been walking the line between being tough but at the same time avoiding to piss off their gas line.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Do you live in Greece?? People of Athens are starving, people are homeless (something that is absolutely alien there) women are resorting to selling themselves!

Only the villages have been isolated simply because they can feed themselves.

Those problems would still exist even with a Grexit. If anything it would be worse with a new drachma. Do you think that people who are already starving will be able to afford food when prices skyrocket due to a garbage drachma and shortages? Do you think that people, already struggling to pay their bills, will be able to afford their homes when their savings dissipate due to the conversion of the euro to a new drachma?

Hunter- with no disrespect intended, I do not see the point in either of us rehearsing (copy-pasting) arguments for and against Grexit as articulated by economists. For one thing, the prospect of failure to persuade you does not trouble me, and I have no doubt that is mutual. For another, neither of us are able to take any determinative decision on this matter, nor are we in possession of a crystal ball. The effect would therefore be us juxtaposing two extant arguments, and continuing to prefer the other one from one another.

It's not a crystal ball that we need, it's basic behavior of economics. These are things that WILL happen if a Grexit were to occur. Getting kicked out of the Eurozone also means that Greece would likely to be kicked out of the EU. Which means that Greece would lose out on all of the benefits that have associated with it including various trade and financial deals that have allowed Greece to participate in the global economy.

There is, in fact, substantial agreement between us on the extend to which Greece is screwed. The essential difference is that we are, politically, diametrically opposed, and I will always be of the view that freedom from the EU is worth any price, and should certainly motivate the selection of one of two very difficult paths. You appear to have adopted a view which is resentful towards Greeks and apologist for Germany; I find that unfortunate, and I certainly don't think it is a fair assessment of recent history (in which one party has been a reckless gambler and the other has been a spiteful bully). But otherwise we can probably agree on the important point that the €uro is not, and was never destined to be, suited to all of its members. The breakdown of trust and the mythical "solidarity" within the EU is ancillary to that, but informative nevertheless.

Here is where you are completely misunderstanding my position. There is absolutely no need to be resentful towards the Greeks and apologetic to the Germans. The fact that you characterize my position as that, shows that you really don't understand my position.

I am more than willing to criticize the EU and Troika where criticism is due. herakles actually said it perfectly that the EU allowed Greece to join the Eurozone unethically, even though Greece lied and illegally covered up their budgets, it still doesn't change the fact that the EU turned a blind eye to Greece's financial problems and rushed them into the Eurozone all in the name of European solidarity. The austerity measures that the Troika has imposed upon without the debt restructurings necessary has completely crippled Greece. And I do feel sorry for Greece's citizenry for having to put up with multiple corrupt governments that have lied to them, being under the boot heel of the Troika, and being forced to endure harsh economic conditions.

But sympathy can only go so far. It's hard to have sympathy for a Greek government that acts like it's complete amateur hour. It's hard to have sympathy for an electorate that democratically chose their outcome like the referendum a couple of weeks ago and voting for SYRIZA. In the end, you get what you vote for.

And there are certain realities to still take into account. You can't just put emotion and blind nationalism in the way of such things. The reality is that most of the EU is frustrated with Greece, and they're frustrated with Greece because A). They want their money back and B). While other member-states have complied, Greece has been slow and resistant to reform. The reality is that Angela Merkel, and most European governments, are limited politically to their degree of forgiveness towards Greece. Being too forgiving to Greece would destroy Europe politically. You are ignoring the realities of how debt markets work, they are based on trust and Greece has been eroding that trust. And the reality is that Greece just cannot handle being on its own.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Greece will NOT be able to replay all those loans and you and your Government knows that! Only solution is a Grexit. I know you like your easy holiday trip to the Aegean and your Gov loves shipping your goods to Greece tariff free!

Any solution has to include debt restructuring. There is no way around it. You are absolutely right that pretty much everyone knows that Greece will not be able to repay all of these loans.

And yes I consider myself Greek above all else! Why should I not, especially with the way my follow "Europeans" are treating my family's homeland!

That's how it should be. I feel that Europe's attempts to create a "social Europe" and an European identity will be in vain. A continent filled with various ethnicities and violent history just has too much to overcome for those aspects. Europe is not the United States where the differences between New Yorkers and Texans are rather trivial. There are significant differences between Estonians, French, Germans, Greeks, etc. in language, culture, history, and whatnot. And I feel that this attempt to create an European identity is a big reason why so many are so resistant to the EU. Greeks are going to feel Greek. And they should be. But at the same time, blind nationalism shouldn't get in the way of certain realities.

 

[regwec]

Good news, I agree with the entirety of that last post!

A few interesting articles this morning, for those whom are interested:

* Showdown between IMF and Germany over debt write-offs looming (Bloomberg). I suppose the option to cave into sane reasoning and blame it on the IMF is probably useful to Merkel.

* Illuminating article on how the Troika in Greece has to work like an occupying government. (Bloomberg)

* The EU's willful ignorance of the rule of law (from a British perspective- Moneyweek)

* A view on German domination of the EU (CapX).

 

[Mechanix]

That's how it should be. I feel that Europe's attempts to create a "social Europe" and an European identity will be in vain. A continent filled with various ethnicities and violenthere tory just has too much to overcome for those aspects. Europe is not the United States where the differences between New Yorkers and Texans are rather trivial. There are significant differences between Estonians, French, Germans, Greeks, etc. in language, culture, history, and whatnot. And I feel that this attempt to create an European identity is a big reason why so many are so resistant to the EU. Greeks are going to feel Greek. And they should be. But at the same time, blind nationalism shouldn't get in the way of certain realities.

I always felt that there was a sort of romanticism associated with Europe and European "culture." It's hard to explain, but it comes down to people (maybe just in North America) looking at Europe as a whole and talking about how things are done over there (in a they-do-it-better-than-us sort of way).

Even when it comes to social statistics about education, health care, economics, etc, Europe is always lumped together, even though the differences in the countries are glaring and shouldn't be ignored. I got into a debate with another member a while back about the education system in European countries versus the United States and I argued that the cultures and histories of the individual countries were too important to ignore and as such, the whole of Europe can't be compared to the US and they fired back that the US has different cultures within its own country and that Europe's individual countries were too small in population to be compared to the US one by one.

 

[regwec]

You were plainly right in that argument. Another key factor is that there are blocs of countries with entwined cultural and historical traditions that associate much more closely than with others. This is sometimes described as the Olive Belt, but it is appreciable in more detail if you simply watch Eurovision.

If the EU was still the EEC, it would have far fewer detractors. The Maastricht and Lisbon treaties were huge mistakes, in my opinion, particularly as the latter was repeatedly rejected by member states' plebiscites, before being introduced anyway.

 

[herakles]

Any solution has to include debt restructuring. There is no way around it. You are absolutely right that pretty much everyone knows that Greece will not be able to repay all of these loans.


That's how it should be. I feel that Europe's attempts to create a "social Europe" and an European identity will be in vain. A continent filled with various ethnicities and violent history just has too much to overcome for those aspects. Europe is not the United States where the differences between New Yorkers and Texans are rather trivial. There are significant differences between Estonians, French, Germans, Greeks, etc. in language, culture, history, and whatnot. And I feel that this attempt to create an European identity is a big reason why so many are so resistant to the EU. Greeks are going to feel Greek. And they should be. But at the same time, blind nationalism shouldn't get in the way of certain realities.

IMO the Germans, French and Dutch want to fill their museums with my people's history for cheap! Greece has not had it easy since they joined the Euro, skyrocketing prices, mortgages where none existed before, and ridiculous amounts of Illegal immigrants that rest of the EU doesn't want so they tell the Greeks to keep them but not deport them.

Mark my words keep this s**t up Germany and Golden Dawn will be elected into power. That is something NO rational Greek wants!


Debt forgiveness HAS TO BE part of the final deal!

 

[regwec]

I'm pretty sure it will be, but timing probably plays a role in that. I am sure much of the Troika's vengeance against Geeece has been inspired by a desire to forestall similar anti-austerity/anti-EU movements, such as Podemos in Spain, which has general elections at the end of the year. Every sane commentator agrees that Greece's debts as a whole are unpayable- we are even able to agree on that here. But Germany and co won't admit that before they have successfully spooked Spaniards, Italians etc against voting against the creditor nations' interests.

 

[Mechanix]

IMO the Germans, French and Dutch want to fill their museums with my people's history for cheap! Greece has not had it easy since they joined the Euro, skyrocketing prices, mortgages where none existed before, and ridiculous amounts of Illegal immigrants that rest of the EU doesn't want so they tell the Greeks to keep them but not deport them.

Mark my words keep this s**t up Germany and Golden Dawn will be elected into power. That is something NO rational Greek wants!


Debt forgiveness HAS TO BE part of the final deal!

That would be the worst knee jerk reaction.

Also, hating on Germany and being so mad at them to elect a party that is run by Nazi sympathisers seems pretty ****ing stupid. I doubt the Greek people are stupid.

As for the rest of your post, it seems very emotional and not factual based. Greece actually did well in the first few years of the Euro. And immigrants are everywhere in Europe and no, they don't shuffle them onto Greece. The Mediterranean countries all deal with immigrants and the northern countries (Britain, Germany, Denmark, etc) have flocks of people coming from the Middle East. The second largest Turkish population next to Istanbul is in Germany.

The largest population of African immigrants are in France, the UK, Italy and Germany.

 

[regwec]

He is correct in so far as the Mediterranean countries have an acute problem with processing very large numbers of people arriving in makeshift boats, however.

 

[herakles]

That would be the worst knee jerk reaction.

Also, hating on Germany and being so mad at them to elect a party that is run by Nazi sympathisers seems pretty ****ing stupid. I doubt the Greek people are stupid.

As for the rest of your post, it seems very emotional and not factual based. Greece actually did well in the first few years of the Euro. And immigrants are everywhere in Europe and no, they don't shuffle them onto Greece. The Mediterranean countries all deal with immigrants and the northern countries (Britain, Germany, Denmark, etc) have flocks of people coming from the Middle East. The second largest Turkish population next to Istanbul is in Germany.

The largest population of African immigrants are in France, the UK, Italy and Germany.

Golden Dawn is doing exactly what Hitler did in the 1930s. Feed the poor, protecting old people from criminals who happen to be illegal immigrants, while feeding the hysteria the general public feels. It worked perfectly in the 1930s and it may work in 2016. Proud people can only take so much before they break down and look to a "savior" to bring them back to their "glory days"...

It is a scary thought they could win controlling power.

 

[hippie_hunter]

IMO the Germans, French and Dutch want to fill their museums with my people's history for cheap!

Ummmm.....yeah. Again, this is the whole emotional thing getting in the way. That is not their motive.

Greece has not had it easy since they joined the Euro, skyrocketing prices, mortgages where none existed before, and ridiculous amounts of Illegal immigrants that rest of the EU doesn't want so they tell the Greeks to keep them but not deport them.

Prices would have still risen without the EU and if anything because of Greece's import dependent economy, goods would have most likely been more expensive because of things like tariffs and other barriers to trade in place. Mortgages existed well before the Eurozone, even in Greece. And many countries in the EU have immigration problems, ask Germany, France, and the UK.

Mark my words keep this s**t up Germany and Golden Dawn will be elected into power. That is something NO rational Greek wants!

No rational European wants Golden Dawn in power.

Debt forgiveness HAS TO BE part of the final deal!

Politically, debt forgiveness is unacceptable. It will send the wrong message to all the other EU member-states that they don't have to follow the rules, elect an intransigent radical government, and everything will be fine!

Debt forgiveness would also shatter the political climate within Europe. It would likely pave the way to the rise of the extreme right in Germany, which is what Merkel has worked tirelessly to do. It would collapse governments like that of Finland. Europeans resentful of having to bail out Greece, because they are very sick of it at this point, would probably start looking at extreme right-parties that have been gaining momentum such as France's National Front, the Dutch Party for Freedom, etc. That is the EU's biggest fear right there, and that is why debt forgiveness will not happen.

What should happen is debt restructuring instead. It will allow the creditors to get their money back, keep the system intact, while being easier for Greece to handle their debts.

I'm pretty sure it will be, but timing probably plays a role in that. I am sure much of the Troika's vengeance against Geeece has been inspired by a desire to forestall similar anti-austerity/anti-EU movements, such as Podemos in Spain, which has general elections at the end of the year. Every sane commentator agrees that Greece's debts as a whole are unpayable- we are even able to agree on that here. But Germany and co won't admit that before they have successfully spooked Spaniards, Italians etc against voting against the creditor nations' interests.

While I certainly would refrain from calling the Troika's actions to be "vengeance," I do agree that the biggest motive for the EU member-states is to clamp down on other anti-austerity parties like Podemos. The EU can easily write off Greece's debt and everything would be fine. What the EU can't do is easily write off the debts of the other PIIGS, which is what would happen if the Troika were too lenient on Greece. It's not that they're defending the interests of the creditors, it's that they're defending their own interests. The other PIIGS are just far too big to completely forgive their debts. And what about other nations like the Baltics and Cyprus that had to have austerity and mini-bail outs? The EU financially cannot afford that.

Greece is going to be used as an example to the others as to what will happen if you don't play by the rules and act like a petulant child the way SYRIZA has.

 

[regwec]

And that, friends, is the death rattle of the myth of solidarity. It shall not be missed.

 

[hippie_hunter]

And that, friends, is the death rattle of the myth of solidarity. It shall not be missed.

Even when people and nations come together, they are still going to put their own interests first and foremost. Solidarity is meaningless if you hurt yourself in the process. Why would Germany risk the return of the radical right? Why would Finland risk the collapse of their government? Why would the Netherlands risk giving the Party for Freedom a talking point?

 

[regwec]

Quite, and that is why the EU, vis-a-vis the EEC, was a premise doomed from the outset. The "us", throughout Europe, remains the nation state, and there is no love lost between them. As it stands, the EU is merely a fig leaf by which its more populous members further their national self interest against the minnows.