The Israel Situation II

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

There is a law that states "The simplest solution is usually the correct one" but I can't remember what the actual name of it is.

 

[Kelly]

There is a law that states "The simplest solution is usually the correct one" but I can't remember what the actual name of it is.

Occam's Razor

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

That's the ticket

 

[DeadPresident]

Well first and foremost they are supposed to be the center of democracy in the middle east so no matter what they need to be the bigger man. Things like treating others the way you would want to be treated would go along way.

Ah I see, turning the other cheek. Yes, that's probably the right reaction to people attempting to kill your civilians and kidnapping them. If that's what Israel should do it should also be the first recourse for every other country as well. Again, what would your response be if your country was on the receiving end of these acts and it "manned the **** up" and "treated others the way you wanted to be treated"?

I'm not saying Israel isn't doing inadvisable things, their expansion really needs to stop, and their attempts at creating a Palestinian state aren't sufficient.

But for the sake of argument, imagine the USA was the size of a small province, and it's direct neighbours were Russia, China and North Korea. Then imagine that your population is a fraction of those countries' populations, and at one point or another all 3 had explicitly communicated they would like nothing more than to see your country "wiped off the face of the earth". How would you respond to threats to your national security and the safety of your citizens then?

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

Did I say they shouldn't respond in kind? No I did not. I understand sometimes the only option is force but that should be a last resort whenever possible. But there are many aspects of some of their policies that aren't in line with trying to say they are a democracy.

 

[herakles]

Who says I don't? Notice this is the Israel Situation thread, not the Jordan Situation thread, not the Greco-Turkish relationship thread. Start one, and I'll give you my opinion there.

The US has turned a blind eye to a lot of crap Israel does, and it needs to stop. The only time the peace process moves in any real way is when America puts its foot down with Israel, and stops with the double standard.

Also, I wouldn't call myself pro-Palestinian, so much as pro-common sense.

Losing a war doesn't mean you have no rights.

Since 1948 Israel has had to fight several wars from every direction and each time they have won. When one loses a war they don't get to dictate what they want. They get TOLD what will happen.

PLO and Hamas has attacked Israel on multiple occasions and each time they have lost. Face it Israel has earned the right to that land!

I was not trying to hijack this thread I was just using the Greek/Turk relations as an example.

Also I don't blame the Israelis they got kicked out of several nations and lost 6 million of their people when Israel was created. Since then they are under constant attack. I wonder what you would do if your house was constantly attacked?

 

[herakles]

I have come to realize over the past 6 years, that Obama doesn't make diplomatic mistakes because he is this closet Muslim, he makes diplomatic mistakes because he had no clue what the hell he is doing, and neither do any of the people that he listens to....

I have not yet turned to the opinion that he also has this HUGE AGENDA that he is pushing forth, I honestly just think he has no ****ing clue what he is doing....

I agree. I don't believe President Obama is as bad as the Right say and think but I certainly do not believe his as great as the left believe he is.

 

[herakles]

I didn't say I have a problem with what Israel did, I have a problem with people thinking we should blindly support them and never criticize them. It's just stupid and Israel needs to stop acting like a petulant child and man the **** up

Hey I do criticize Israel especially when they spy on us and get caught. That spy should die in a US jail. I also disagree when a Israeli citizen commits a crime here and then jumps over to Israel to avoid jail time.

I do think that Gaza and the West Bank should be turned into a Palestine nation but they lost all rights to Jerusalem when Jordan lost the war to Israel.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Since 1948 Israel has had to fight several wars from every direction and each time they have won. When one loses a war they don't get to dictate what they want. They get TOLD what will happen.

PLO and Hamas has attacked Israel on multiple occasions and each time they have lost. Face it Israel has earned the right to that land!

I was not trying to hijack this thread I was just using the Greek/Turk relations as an example.

Also I don't blame the Israelis they got kicked out of several nations and lost 6 million of their people when Israel was created. Since then they are under constant attack. I wonder what you would do if your house was constantly attacked?

So what? You win a war and people cease to have any sort of rights? Are you at all familiar with international law? Even Israel acknowledges that. The two-state solution is still the official position, even if it is nothing but empty rhetoric at this point.

What Israel is doing in the occupied territories is both legally and morally unacceptable. They know that, which is why they won't let Palestine join any international body, because they will then take them to court and win.

The attacks on Israel are obviously unacceptable, but that doesn't change what Israel is doing to the Palestinians, or that America does nothing but mumble when they do it.

 

[Kelly]

Since 1948 Israel has had to fight several wars from every direction and each time they have won. When one loses a war they don't get to dictate what they want. They get TOLD what will happen.

PLO and Hamas has attacked Israel on multiple occasions and each time they have lost. Face it Israel has earned the right to that land!

I was not trying to hijack this thread I was just using the Greek/Turk relations as an example.

Also I don't blame the Israelis they got kicked out of several nations and lost 6 million of their people when Israel was created. Since then they are under constant attack. I wonder what you would do if your house was constantly attacked?

Incorrect....
This is where they are NOW.....

This remark is useful in resolving the ambiguity resulting from the absence of the definite article ‘the’ in the English version of SC Resolution 242. It could be resolved by considering the principle and the norm behind the resolution. The principle is that peace will come on the basis of a compromise asked from the Palestinians: to concede that the territory from which they were
expelled in 1948 is now Israeli territory, and that Israel has a right to exist within that territory. In exchange for this recognition, Israel will withdraw from the territories it occupied in 1967 (while keeping all the territory occupied in 1948/49), in partial fulfillment of the principle of the ‘inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war’7. This deal has been known as the ‘land for peace’ deal and has been at the basis of every single effort to find a historical compromise between Israelis and Palestinians. Its broad strokes have been accepted in principle by the Palestinians and the Israelis, but the latter have constantly tried to ‘create facts on the ground’ in order to keep important parts of the occupied territories.

That right there, is something that the Israeli's could very easily STOP DOING....they SHOULD move their people OUT of the areas that are NOW deemed Palestinian. They won't...why? Because as long as they are pushing that button, they can continue to look like the victim. They were the VICTIM back in 1947 and were legally giving the land that was a Mandate of Great Britain and legally theirs to give.....they are NO LONGER the victim. It is almost like those settlements are being used to put their finger in the chest of the Palestinians and they keep poking them, until they bomb them...and then shout...SEE THEY DON'T WANT PEACE. They have AGREED to the above mandate, so they need to FOLLOW IT. IF AT THAT TIME that they have moved their people off of the land deemed Palestinian land, and the Palestinians continue the terrorist activities, THEN they legally can go in and wipe the Palestinians off the face of the earth. But right now, they do not have that right.

Which leads to what Thunder says below....

So what? You win a war and people cease to have any sort of rights? Are you at all familiar with international law? Even Israel acknowledges that. The two-state solution is still the official position, even if it is nothing but empty rhetoric at this point.

What Israel is doing in the occupied territories is both legally and morally unacceptable. They know that, which is why they won't let Palestine join any international body, because they will then take them to court and win.

The attacks on Israel are obviously unacceptable, but that doesn't change what Israel is doing to the Palestinians, or that America does nothing but mumble when they do it.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

The US is having a hard enough time controlling its own borders so it's not real surprising they can't stop other countries from arguing/fighting over borders thousands of miles away.

 

[Kelly]

We shouldn't be a part of that arguing and fighting...we should be focusing on our own borders and securing those....

 

[Kelly]

They are the descendants of all the groups that inhibited Palestine since the ancient Canaanites and beyond. Palestine was conquered by Canaanites, Philistines, ancient Hebrews, ancient Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, Muslims, Crusaders, Turks and probably more. They are a conglomeration of many, just as we are here in the US...
If they want to call themselves Palestinians just as we call ourselves Americans...ok. So?

 

[Webfoot Hero]

They are the descendants of all the groups that inhibited Palestine since the ancient Canaanites and beyond. Palestine was conquered by Canaanites, Philistines, ancient Hebrews, ancient Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, Muslims, Crusaders, Turks and probably more. They are a conglomeration of many, just as we are here in the US...
If they want to call themselves Palestinians just as we call ourselves Americans...ok. So?

Did a whole section of conversation get deleted since there seems to be a big gap of time between posts with no correlation between the two?

 

[Thundercrack85]

If there is another major war in that area, the only permanent tenants of Israel will be the scarabs.

The Israelis and Palestinians need to work this out, but the Israeli's won't do it on their own, that much has become clear.

 

[Destructus86]

If there is another major war in that area, the only permanent tenants of Israel will be the scarabs.

The Israelis and Palestinians need to work this out, but the Israeli's won't do it on their own, that much has become clear.

it doesn't help when there are misguided Christians supporting Israel's position with tons of money.

 

[Kelly]

Did a whole section of conversation get deleted since there seems to be a big gap of time between posts with no correlation between the two?

Very possible, two things have happened....we have gone to a new thread, just a few pages ago....and we had a poster who was a previously banned poster, and their posts have been deleted.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

Airstrikes by Israeli Forces Reported in Gaza

Airstrikes have been reported in Gaza following the discovery of the bodies of three Israeli teenagers today. Citing the Israel Defense Forces, Haaretz reports that 34 "terror targets" have been attacked by the Israeli Air Force. Israeli Deputy Defense Minister Danny Danon earlier today called for the "ending" of Hamas.

ABC News reports that it's still unclear whether the attacks were in response to the teens' murders or in retaliation of an attack from Gaza:

It wasn't immediately clear whether the strikes were in retaliation for the kidnappings and murders, which Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had vowed to avenge. The Israel Defense Forces also tweeted early Tuesday morning that a rocket was fired from Gaza into Israel, but no damage was reported.

According to Haaretz, Israeli forces have destroyed the homes of the teens' suspected kidnappers:

Israeli soldiers break into the homes of Hamas operatives and suspected kidnappers Marwan Qawasameh and Amar Abu Aisha in Hebron. Firefighters are attempting to quell a fire which broke out in Abu Aisha's house.

According to Palestinian reports, the Israeli army detonated the houses. According to the report, around 8 P.M. the forces surrounded the houses, called on the families to evacuate and then blew them up. One Palestinian child was wounded by an explosion. Palestinian firefighters are attempting to distance the crowds from the burning houses. It was also reported that Israelis have attacked Palestinian in the Hebron old city in several different incidents.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.602189

So now several people are homeless and a child was hurt. There wasn't a better way to retaliate than in this manner?

 

[DeadPresident]

Airstrikes by Israeli Forces Reported in Gaza

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.602189

So now several people are homeless and a child was hurt. There wasn't a better way to retaliate than in this manner?

Do you ask that same question about suicide bombers in coffee shops?

Just want to make sure you're consistent with your incredulity.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

Hmm lets see here, your asking if I hold suicide bombers to the same regard as the supposed center for democracy in the middle east? Wonder why that wouldn't be the case. You ask some really stupid questions. You don't think a military as powerful as Israel could have captured the alleged terrorist without bombing their houses? I don't seem to remember the USA blowing up Osama's hideout

 

[Destructus86]

I think we here in the US have supported the Israeli war machine long enough...let them sink or swim.

 

[DeadPresident]

Hmm lets see here, your asking if I hold suicide bombers to the same regard as the supposed center for democracy in the middle east? Wonder why that wouldn't be the case. You ask some really stupid questions. You don't think a military as powerful as Israel could have captured the alleged terrorist without bombing their houses? I don't seem to remember the USA blowing up Osama's hideout

*you're. The strange thing about all your allusions to democracy and how Israel is the "center for democracy" yada yada, is I'm assuming you're an American, does your center for Democracy globally do everything a democratic society should?

How interesting that you bring up the Bin Laden operation, because it was only him that died wasn't it? They didn't kill four others, did they? You don't think a military as powerful as the USA could have captured the terrorist without killing four other people that they weren't actually after?

I don't ask stupid questions, what I do is point out that you hold Israel to very different standards than the terrorists, and then come up with "Couldn't they X, why didn't they Y" arguments when I point it out. If a behaviour is permissible for one nation state, it must be permissible for all of them. You can't pick and choose because you don't agree about arbitrary ideological positions or because it isn't trendy anymore.

I'm sure you were the same guy who wanted a peaceful resolution to 9/11?

Small disclaimer before I stop participating in this topic: On what planet is kidnapping and murdering 3 civilian teenagers somehow "fighting for you freedom" and military action taken against military targets in Gaza is unacceptable?

Just come out and say you dislike Israel and would prefer your country's alliance to come to an end, don't look for a host of bull**** excuses to try and justify terrorist behaviour. I'm quite certain if those were 3 American teenagers that were kidnapped and killed you and every other American would rightly be asking what was being done about it.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I just don't see a want for peace in Israel or Palestine.

There is still some empty rhetoric, but the two-state solution has never seemed further away.

 

[Marvolo]

So let me get this straight, three Israeli teenagers are found dead and Israel's response is to sling bombs like an angry chimp throwing its feces.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

*you're. The strange thing about all your allusions to democracy and how Israel is the "center for democracy" yada yada, is I'm assuming you're an American, does your center for Democracy globally do everything a democratic society should?

How interesting that you bring up the Bin Laden operation, because it was only him that died wasn't it? They didn't kill four others, did they? You don't think a military as powerful as the USA could have captured the terrorist without killing four other people that they weren't actually after?

I don't ask stupid questions, what I do is point out that you hold Israel to very different standards than the terrorists, and then come up with "Couldn't they X, why didn't they Y" arguments when I point it out. If a behaviour is permissible for one nation state, it must be permissible for all of them. You can't pick and choose because you don't agree about arbitrary ideological positions or because it isn't trendy anymore.

I'm sure you were the same guy who wanted a peaceful resolution to 9/11?

Small disclaimer before I stop participating in this topic: On what planet is kidnapping and murdering 3 civilian teenagers somehow "fighting for you freedom" and military action taken against military targets in Gaza is unacceptable?

Just come out and say you dislike Israel and would prefer your country's alliance to come to an end, don't look for a host of bull**** excuses to try and justify terrorist behaviour. I'm quite certain if those were 3 American teenagers that were kidnapped and killed you and every other American would rightly be asking what was being done about it.

You make a lot of baseless accusations in this statement. First of all I know the differance between your and you're. My phone does voice to text and not everything pops up right. I also know how to spell behavior if we are going to point out each others faults in a forum to try and feel superior to another. Yes I am American as you can clearly see in my avy. Obviously even the most democratic of our nations tend to operate in the moral grey area more than just black and white. I'm not going to sit here and lie and say the USA does everything right but that doesn't justify any other nation doing things with excessive force.

You have a lot of stuff to say about how my brain works without taking up residency in there. One expects terrorist to act like terrorist but I would hope you hold a nation that is supposedly a democracy to a higher standard. I was not a fan of W nor did I support a full on war with Afghanistan and I definitely didn't support the war in Iraq. I also never said I think Israel shouldn't protect itself but it should go about in ways that minimize damage as much as possible regardless of what any other nation or terrorist do. Saying everybody else is doing it is not an acceptable answer. Israel, just like the USA is capable of doing surgical strikes and should both try and practice more restraint.