The Dark Knight The Official "The Dark Knight Is Overrated" Thread.

[GremlinZilla89]

I honestly don't want this to be a flame thread. I really, really don't. These kinds of discussions can get heated fast so I ask everybody who wants to contribute to please be as level headed as possible. I know this film and series makes people feel strongly, but lets all be civil. Since it's release TDK has gained such prestige from seemingly everyone that any dissent towards it is either completely ignored or thought as just being attention seeking because the film is so popular.

Believe me when I say I want to love this film like them majority does. It would much easier loving the film unconditionally like the masses but here I am off to the side, finding it overrated.
I don't DISLIKE it. In fact, for most of the runtime I think it's damn good. But the films last act is the biggest issue. For the first 2hrs the film has me. It's exciting, unpredictable, suspenseful, and gives us interesting characters. I've always felt Bale/Bruce was stuffed in the background too much and Bale seems rather lost and bland a lot of the time, but it's forgivable because when he's in the suite I love it, voice and all.
I won't even get into the utterly illogical plot points other than I accept them and find that Rises gets WAY to much flack for plot holes/inconsistencies when the finger can be pointed as easily at TDK but it gets a pass because, well, it's TDK.
Back to the last act. The plotting of the film up to this point is fierce and perfectly paced. It's breathless without feeling like overkill or losing momentum...until it does. After the hospital explosion the film just goes into overdrive and extends itself too far too fast and just takes me out every single time. Believe me, I've tried to enjoy the third act over many repeat viewings but I can never get into it.

The pacing just feels too sped up and they simultaneously introduce yet more political concepts and try to wrap up the plot at the same time. It just feels like overload. I never by the ferry scene and find it incredibly hokey. In a tonally lighter comic book film, one that isn't going for a totally realistic vibe, the scene would play better and I may not have an issue with it. But in this film it just comes off as hamfisted and forced. It would be right at home in an Iron Man film or Spidey film. Hell, it could be at home in a more fantastical Batman film...but something about it's execution just doesn't ring true.

The biggest issue I have with it is Two-Face. Many people say Eckhart is incredibly strong and even steals to show away from Ledger from time to time. I would agree. He IS good. To bad the writing in the last act utterly deflates the great build up. I needed more from Dent. More hints at his breaking sanity. More little details about his state of mind or his past. Just one more scene like the interrogation of the henchmen would have done the trick. His slip into crazed maniac is the very definition of rushed. Not to mention he just comes off as a whiny baby. He anger just isn't justified enough imo. He went from mostly sane to completely crazy in the blink of an eye. They should have kept him for the third film.

My last issue is more of a preference and nitpick, but it does bother me enough as to where I can't just ignore it. Gotham is too much like a regular old city. There are times when the movie really doesn't feel anything at all like a Batman film...or even a superhero film. BB gave us the PERFECT Gotham. It was just outside of reality but believable enough where you think it could exist. Rises also fares better on this front as it feels like a mega city instead of just...Chicago. A common complaint, but one I agree with.

Like I said, I know I'm in the extreme minority here, but I'd like to hear from others who may agree with me and of course people who wanna bash my head in It's almost gotten to the point where I resent the mark TDK has left on mainstream film. Either films follow it's basic template, or fans want everything to be dark, grim, uber serious at all times and to be the next game changer. If they aren't these things they are somehow lesser films. TDK is a mostly good-hell, even great film. It's just the terribly rushed last act really kills it for me and it only exacerbates the smaller quibbles I have with it. It's not even in my top 5 Batman films...let alone top 10 superhero films.

 

[shauner111]

It's because Goyer and Nolan intended on Gotham being a regular looking city all along. I think Goyer said that if they had their way, Gotham would have looked like TDK's for Begins. But as a story, i always see it as they're moving into the downtown parts of Gotham. Where it looks different. It's also been a year or so post-Begins and they've cleaned up the city a little bit.

It never bothered me because this was always supposed to be a "what if Gotham was a real city in the United States like New York or Chicago". It wouldn't work in Burton's universe, hell it'll probably be grimier in Snyders because of Detroit. But for this im cool with it.

There are people who want CBM's to be dark like that and that's not fair. Spider-Man shouldn't be like that you know? I do want to see some characters take a more serious direction though and im glad they went that route with the new Captain America. I think he has the potential to be a cross between Superman and Batman. Winter Soldier nailed that balance. It's something i think they missed on with the first Cap movie.

But Spidey or Flash, or Iron Man don't need to be taken seriously for the majority of a film. That's the opposite of what should happen.

Sometimes i feel like the Two-Face stuff was rushed in order to kill him off and close that chapter. But i dont think his anger wasn't justified. Look what happened to his face, to his future wife. If there was no pep talk from Joker in the hospital, i would agree with you, but that exists.

What you say about the ferry scene is just not true. The hokey stuff you see only has to do with the extras and how they act. Otherwise how would that fit into an Iron Man movie or something lighter? It's extremely dark and deep when you think of it. Like Michael Uslan says, that was never done in a comic book movie before. A boat full of prisoners who have stolen and murdered versus a boat full of "innocent" citizens. Both are given the chance to blow the other sky-high to save their own ass. Is it right for the innocent to do that to those prisoners and guards? That wouldn't make them innocent anymore, it would make them even worse. Jokers counting on it and none of them commit the act. Even the murderers know better. Batman proves it to Joker, yet Joker shows his true colors when he goes about blowing them all up out of panic and disgust with the situation. That entire scene tells so much about humanity. Something fantastical comic book movies or lighter ones don't touch upon because it's not their job to.

You will never see that in a Spidey as cool as they can get.

I think Bale's performance is not bland. It's underrated. A subtle, quieter performance always gets overlooked. The nuances are all top notch with Bale in this one. Loud performances with more screen time does not always equal "better".

 

[GremlinZilla89]

It's because Goyer and Nolan intended on Gotham being a regular looking city all along. I think Goyer said that if they had their way, Gotham would have looked like TDK's for Begins. But as a story, i always see it as they're moving into the downtown parts of Gotham. Where it looks different. It's also been a year or so post-Begins and they've cleaned up the city a little bit.

It never bothered me because this was always supposed to be a "what if Gotham was a real city in the United States like New York or Chicago". It wouldn't work in Burton's universe, hell it'll probably be grimier in Snyders because of Detroit. But for this im cool with it.

There are people who want CBM's to be dark like that and that's not fair. Spider-Man shouldn't be like that you know? I do want to see some characters take a more serious direction though and im glad they went that route with the new Captain America. I think he has the potential to be a cross between Superman and Batman. Winter Soldier nailed that balance. It's something i think they missed on with the first Cap movie.

But Spidey or Flash, or Iron Man don't need to be taken seriously for the majority of a film. That's the opposite of what should happen.

Sometimes i feel like the Two-Face stuff was rushed in order to kill him off and close that chapter. But i dont think his anger wasn't justified. Look what happened to his face, to his future wife. If there was no pep talk from Joker in the hospital, i would agree with you, but that exists.

What you say about the ferry scene is just not true. The hokey stuff you see only has to do with the extras and how they act. Otherwise how would that fit into an Iron Man movie or something lighter? It's extremely dark and deep when you think of it. Like Michael Uslan says, that was never done in a comic book movie before. A boat full of prisoners who have stolen and murdered versus a boat full of "innocent" citizens. Both are given the chance to blow the other sky-high to save their own ass. Is it right for the innocent to do that to those prisoners and guards? That wouldn't make them innocent anymore, it would make them even worse. Jokers counting on it and none of them commit the act. Even the murderers know better. Batman proves it to Joker, yet Joker shows his true colors when he goes about blowing them all up out of panic and disgust with the situation. That entire scene tells so much about humanity. Something fantastical comic book movies or lighter ones don't touch upon because it's not their job to.

You will never see that in a Spidey as cool as they can get.

I think Bale's performance is not bland. It's underrated. A subtle, quieter performance always gets overlooked. The nuances are all top notch with Bale in this one. Loud performances with more screen time does not always equal "better".

To each his own about Bale. For me it's not about subtly, Oldman was subtle and fantastic. Bale just seems bored stiff and the character just seemed underwritten imo. BB and Rises are much more Bruce-centric without losing focus on the side characters or plot, imo.

As far as Two-Face is concerned, maybe unjustified is the wrong word. It's justified, I just don't buy into his transformation, narratively speaking. It's too sudden without enough build up. Like I said before, one more scene like the interrogation one with Dent would have gone a long way, just to get into his mind a bit more. I think he should have been slightly unstable to begin with instead of a perfectly sane man driven insane. The whole "They called you Harvey Two-Face" thing doesn't add a damn thing to his character. It's not given any context. It's just there.

And as for the ferry scene, you're right about the acting. The concept itself is cool, it was written too on the nose imo and felt like it came from a lesser writer/director.

 

[Sterling Archer]

My problems:

The sub plot about Bruce wanting to give up being Batman because of Dent makes no sense and almost ruins the film for me. For one thing Bruce states 'He locked up 500 criminals and he did it without wearing a mask.' but he completely ignores the fact that the only reason Dent was able to do this was because Batman went to China and brought Lau back. Also this is bad because it makes no sense that Bruce would go away and train for 7 years of his life just to want to quit after a year. But that is a symptom of my next problem.

Another thing that ruins the trilogy for me is that Batman is almost entirely motivated by his feelings for Rachel when Batman should be above that sort of thing. In Begins the only reason he targets the mob is because she tells him they are responsible for his parent's death. In TDK he wants to quit being Batman after only one year just so he can be with her. In TDKR he quits for 8 years just because of her death! If I had my way I would have just had Bruce's childhood friend who becomes a lawyer be Harvey Dent and just not have a love interest until Catwoman.

It's annoying too that Batman seems to have become much worse at his job than in Begins. In the scene with Scarecrow he tries (and fails) to cut into the back of the van and I have no idea why. That was probably the most pointless thing to try and do because Crane wasn't even in the back of the van! And in the nightclub scene some random henchman manages to knock Batman over the head with a glass bottle, if he hadn't been wearing a helmet he would have been killed right then and there and the movie would be over. That's so much different than when he managed to take out a group of several armed gunmen in Begins with ease.

The thing that actually ruins this film for me is the fact that mere minutes after making a speech to the Joker about how he would never break his rule, he pushes Harvey off of a ledge and kills him! I could have been okay with this is it had been played up in the movie as a big deal that Batman broke his rule, but the movie just seems to not realise that Harvey's death was entirely Batman's fault. And it's not even like he had no other choice, as a ninja he could of easily snuck up behind Dent while he was holding Gordon's son and choked him until he passed out. Then they could have had a nice long talk about philosophy through Harvey's prison bars, but no he just walks right up to him like an idiot! This ending completely ruins the movie for me.

I still think it's a great movie, but I can't enjoy it because it's terrible as a Batman movie. It's a shame too because I felt that Begins-Batman could have easily developed into a comic book accurate Batman, but he just got weaker over the course of the trilogy.

 

[CountOrlok]

Back to the last act. The plotting of the film up to this point is fierce and perfectly paced. It's breathless without feeling like overkill or losing momentum...until it does. After the hospital explosion the film just goes into overdrive and extends itself too far too fast and just takes me out every single time. Believe me, I've tried to enjoy the third act over many repeat viewings but I can never get into it.

The pacing just feels too sped up and they simultaneously introduce yet more political concepts and try to wrap up the plot at the same time. It just feels like overload. I never by the ferry scene and find it incredibly hokey. In a tonally lighter comic book film, one that isn't going for a totally realistic vibe, the scene would play better and I may not have an issue with it. But in this film it just comes off as hamfisted and forced. It would be right at home in an Iron Man film or Spidey film. Hell, it could be at home in a more fantastical Batman film...but something about it's execution just doesn't ring true.

I 100% agree about the ferry scene. The film just grinds into a halt at that point. You could make the same point a lot better.. besides it wasn't even given much development up to that point to start with. You barely know the Gotham citizenry and what they're capable of. The screenwriters turned a complex issue into an extremely simplistic one. Such an annoying scene, and the pretentiousness of it is unbearable.

 

[Fudgie]

Ehhhh Bruce doesn't want to quit to be with Rachel. Bats said in Begins that his goal was to shake the Gotham peeps out of apathy and inspire them as Batman. He thinks Dent can be a better hero and symbol of hope for Gotham than Batman. That's why he tests him first to see if he's as good as he thinks by giving him Chinese guy Lau and getting him to put away all those crooks.

Archer's complaint about one thug managing to hit Bats with a beer bottle when it doesn't even affect him is just petty. You gonna complain because Scarecrow just walked up and sprayed him with fear gas and then set him on fire in Begins, too, even though Bats had the drop on them heh?

CoountOrlok must have missed all the Gotham citizen scenes before the ferries like the peeps going nuts and trying to kill Reese, or turning on Bats at Dent's press conference. You saw what Joker was doing to them. There was plenty of build up to the ferry scene. Oh yeah. And it rocked.

None of these complaints you guys have said are legit ones imo. Soz.

 

[CountOrlok]

Yeah but we aren't shown why they can be capable of being good, especially when the previous scenes show they lose their minds and become homicidal when threatened. Just the big black thug and the uptight guy who are just red herrings to make you think they'll detonate the bomb, but instead prove some kind of 'goodness in humanity' by refusing to kill people to save their lives.

I've seen the theme - of hope in darkness and despair - done much better. The Crow for example.. it came through with the characters, not just random people you know nothing about, who are given less than 5 minutes screen time.

 

[spiderman2]

I do think that dark knight is overrated but still a great movie its just that most people think it is the best CBM ever or at least the best in the trilogy but i think it is the worst in the trilogy and that dark knight rise is the best in the trilogy and that dark knight is the 4th best CBM ever not one but all 3 in the trilogy are fantastic.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

All the best superhero movies get unjustly accused of being overrated once in a while. Spider-Man 2, X-Men 2, Dark Knight, Avengers and so on.

The Dark Knight's not overrated at all. It's truly earned it's status as the best Batman movie and comic book movie. It's brilliant on so many levels. Nolan caught lightning in a bottle when he made it.

 

[GremlinZilla89]

All the best superhero movies get unjustly accused of being overrated once in a while. Spider-Man 2, X-Men 2, Dark Knight, Avengers and so on.

The Dark Knight's not overrated at all. It's truly earned it's status as the best Batman movie and comic book movie. It's brilliant on so many levels. Nolan caught lightning in a bottle when he made it.

That seems to imply people only say it to be controversial or to go against the grain for the sake of it.

Well the shocker is....some people just genuinely think some of those movies aren't that good! Nothing more to it. For me, The Dark Knight is a brilliant film for 2hrs until it goes off the rails with it's pacing and it's morality play.

And for my money, Spider-Man 2 is the most overrated superhero movie ever made. But that's a different discussion

 

[CountOrlok]

The Dark Knight's not overrated at all. It's truly earned it's status as the best Batman movie and comic book movie. It's brilliant on so many levels. Nolan caught lightning in a bottle when he made it.

You mean "earned" as in box office receipts.

 

[Fudgie]

Nah we ain't talking about B'89 here. Even Burton can admit that was just a cultural phenomenon instead of a good movie heh.

 

[CountOrlok]

Nah we ain't talking about B'89 here. Even Burton can admit that was just a cultural phenomenon instead of a good movie heh.

I've never heard Burton boast about his successes, but he's not going to say "this is the best movie ever", particularly when it wasn't really his movie like Batman Returns was.

 

[The Joker]

It's because Goyer and Nolan intended on Gotham being a regular looking city all along. I think Goyer said that if they had their way, Gotham would have looked like TDK's for Begins. But as a story, i always see it as they're moving into the downtown parts of Gotham. Where it looks different. It's also been a year or so post-Begins and they've cleaned up the city a little bit.

It never bothered me because this was always supposed to be a "what if Gotham was a real city in the United States like New York or Chicago". It wouldn't work in Burton's universe, hell it'll probably be grimier in Snyders because of Detroit. But for this im cool with it.

There are people who want CBM's to be dark like that and that's not fair. Spider-Man shouldn't be like that you know? I do want to see some characters take a more serious direction though and im glad they went that route with the new Captain America. I think he has the potential to be a cross between Superman and Batman. Winter Soldier nailed that balance. It's something i think they missed on with the first Cap movie.

But Spidey or Flash, or Iron Man don't need to be taken seriously for the majority of a film. That's the opposite of what should happen.

Sometimes i feel like the Two-Face stuff was rushed in order to kill him off and close that chapter. But i dont think his anger wasn't justified. Look what happened to his face, to his future wife. If there was no pep talk from Joker in the hospital, i would agree with you, but that exists.

What you say about the ferry scene is just not true. The hokey stuff you see only has to do with the extras and how they act. Otherwise how would that fit into an Iron Man movie or something lighter? It's extremely dark and deep when you think of it. Like Michael Uslan says, that was never done in a comic book movie before. A boat full of prisoners who have stolen and murdered versus a boat full of "innocent" citizens. Both are given the chance to blow the other sky-high to save their own ass. Is it right for the innocent to do that to those prisoners and guards? That wouldn't make them innocent anymore, it would make them even worse. Jokers counting on it and none of them commit the act. Even the murderers know better. Batman proves it to Joker, yet Joker shows his true colors when he goes about blowing them all up out of panic and disgust with the situation. That entire scene tells so much about humanity. Something fantastical comic book movies or lighter ones don't touch upon because it's not their job to.

You will never see that in a Spidey as cool as they can get.

I think Bale's performance is not bland. It's underrated. A subtle, quieter performance always gets overlooked. The nuances are all top notch with Bale in this one. Loud performances with more screen time does not always equal "better".

Couldn't agree more

You mean "earned" as in box office receipts.

And critical reaction, fans reactions, general audience reactions, impact on the CBM genre, and on non CBM movies like James Bond etc. I won't even get started on Hollywood alumni like Steven Spielberg calling it beautiful well written art.

Not to mention the influence of the TDK trilogy itself on Batman comics: http://tdkinfluence.blogspot.ie/

So sorry but your box office receipts mark holds no weight. If it did then Michael Bay would be held up as one of the greatest directors of all time. His Transformers movies alone have made a killing at the box office. But you already knew that.

I've never heard Burton boast about his successes, but he's not going to say "this is the best movie ever", particularly when it wasn't really his movie like Batman Returns was.

To be fair I've never heard Burton call any of his movies boring either, except Batman '89. He really did say it was really just a cultural phenomenon rather than a good movie, too. So it sounds like his opinion of it isn't very high as a movie.

 

[CountOrlok]

And critical reaction, fans reactions, general audience reactions, impact on the CBM genre, and on non CBM movies like James Bond etc. I won't even get started on Hollywood alumni like Steven Spielberg calling it beautiful well written art.

Not to mention the influence of the TDK trilogy itself on Batman comics: http://tdkinfluence.blogspot.ie/

So sorry but your box office receipts mark holds no weight. If it did then Michael Bay would be held up as one of the greatest directors of all time. His Transformers movies alone have made a killing at the box office. But you already knew that.

He said: "It's truly earned it's status as the best Batman movie and comic book movie"

 

[Green Goblin]

Leave Burton out of it. Previous versions of franchises have Nothing to do with the quality of the current version.

On the matter at hand, is The Dark Knight overrated? No, it's the best comic book film ever IMO. Does it have problems? Yeah, so does every movie

Since we are talking problems I didn't like turning Gotham into a generic US City but Nolan had his reasons even if I didn't agree with them. I think perhaps they suspended our belief too much with the Joker but he made a fatal flaw at the end so he's not "God like" as some of referred him as.

An aspect the film did great other than Joker was Batman/Bruce Wayne. Bale was at his best and Nolan emotionally grounded the character to show us the vulnerability of Bruce Wayne but also the inner courage of Batman and the conflict between these two characters. By the end of the movie we learn that Batman will endure, and take the sins of others for the greater good of society.

 

[Victarion]

The whole "They called you Harvey Two-Face" thing doesn't add a damn thing to his character. It's not given any context. It's just there.

The scene were Harvey talks about Cesar in the first act. The scene where he loses it with Schiff. Two-Face was collateral damage. Something to drive home the idea that if Batman continued his crusade, there'd be similar tragedies. I think that the last act is supposed to feel rushed. Put yourself in Gotham during Joker's rampage. You're not going to get a chance to have everything explained. It would feel disorienting, hectic, and have a sense of urgency.

 

[redfirebird2008]

I definitely think TDK is overrated. BB was the better Batman movie of the two. TDK is a pretty good sequel though.

 

[Stryderk]

I don't know how anybody can say BB is better than TDK. I loved both films but there isn't really any iconic moments in BB.

 

[redfirebird2008]

I don't know how anybody can say BB is better than TDK. I loved both films but there isn't really any iconic moments in BB.

I disagree. There are enough iconic moments in BB that the TDKR marketing campaign and film itself actually went out of its way to rip off BB numerous times. There are far more iconic Batman moments in BB than in TDK, which gave a lot more iconic moments to the Joker than any other character.

 

[BatLobster]

To me the Batman/Joker relationship is so essential that pretty much any scene with the two of them feels very huge and iconic. And even when you're highlighting The Joker you're still dealing such an important aspect of the Batman universe. A hero is only as good as his villains. Same with Dent/Two-Face. Because of that, to me TDK is every bit as good a Batman movie, just in a different way. It just explores such a quintessential part of the mythology.

 

[Human Torch]

I definitely think TDK is overrated. BB was the better Batman movie of the two. TDK is a pretty good sequel though.

This is pretty much my opinion.When people act like TDK will never be surpassed,I'm like......I don't think it was even better than BB.But,whatever.It was still a great film,so I don't think it's praise is entirely undeserved.It's just when people act like it was The Touch of GOD that I'm like .

 

[DOBSON10]

Couldn't disagree more, it's the best superhero movie ever. But to each their own I guess.

 

[jonathancrane]

I find decidedly convenient that the Joker's henchmen were able to load all of those explosives onto the ferries without anyone noticing. However, my frustration with the Joker Ex Machina is nothing compared to the reconstructed bullet sequence, which throws science out the window. As a writer better than myself wrote:

I love detailed science in my movies as much as the next guy - hell, more than most next guys - but when it’s brought into a script, it needs to used carefully. So I think the lesson to be learned is this: when screenwriters want to invite the audience "into the lab," they need to be prepared for the level of scientific rigor they’re courting. That invitation may not always be as literal as it is in TDK, but when the details of the science are used to drive the logical progression of the story, they need to hold up. Otherwise, it’s best to just show us a bit of plausible razzle-dazzle and move along as quickly as possible.

http://badassdigest.com/2012/07/05/basic-movie-science-the-dark-knight/

 

[CountOrlok]

I think The Dark Knight is a good movie, but the hype caused by Heath Ledger's untimely demise coupled with his portrayal of the Joker character, really sent it way above the orbit of overrated and out into infinity and beyond.