Tony Leung IS The Mandarin

[Another_Fool]

It doesn't help he has far more in common with Fu Manchu. It hardly redeems the concept of the Mandarin if they just slap his name on another character who also has a problematic history. All Hail the King may as well never have happened since the build up just lead to them defecating on the concept.

Even though Wenwu is substantially different than the Mandarin he has even less in common with Fu Manchu. Beyond the dynamic of being Shang-Chi's father that's about all Wenwu has exclusively in common with Fu Manchu. Any other similarities are actually traits that Mandarin and Fu Manchu both share. Both have lived for at least centuries and both know martial arts. Certainly Wenwu is a more sympathetic character than either but the fact he possesses the 10 rings

Spoiler

and has toppled governments etc, as well as the events in the intro of the film before he meets his wife

I see more in common with the Mandarin than Fu Manchu.

Regardless the MCU has changed a lot about their villains. Thanos, Killmonger, Vulture and Nebula (who's not even a villain anymore) are so different in their core intentions or motivations that this is a flaw you could levy at any film adaptation outside of Joker and Magneto.

 

[Iceman]

Tony Leung (as expected) did not disappoint. He added gravitas to the film.

 

[The Overlord]

"They didn't mess him up"...

"they change his motivations, origin, and name"...

Mandarin's motivations seem to change all the time in the comics, so I have no issue with them being changed here.

Thanos' motive changed in the movies from the comics and he worked out well.

 

[BlackFox]

Tony Leung (as expected) did not disappoint. He added gravitas to the film.

One of the best MCU villians for me, a tragic tale as well, beautifully portrayed and did really well with his action scenes too, loved that opening.

 

[Iceman]

One of the best MCU villians for me, a tragic tale as well, beautifully portrayed and did really well with his action scenes too, loved that opening.

Yeah, definitely one of the most heartfelt ones, and didn’t skimp on the cool action either.

 

[KaijuDude1992]

I think what I loved most about Tony Leung's performance is the amount of subtle, nuance he brought to this version of The Mandarin. I was actually surprised at how much of a likeable/sympathetic character he was despite doing plenty of awful things in his past as a vicious, warlord.

The family element really added some nice humanity to his character IMO and made him even more of a compelling character to watch whenever his was onscreen, especially the whole thing with the mom which was just heartbreaking and is something that stuck with me even after the movie was over.

 

[tanita_mors]

Is he a huge Hong Kong / Chinese action star?

To be honest, the only movie that I remember seeing him in was Lust, Caution - a VERY different movie from typical HK action, Chinese historical action films. He was excellent in that. Magnetic, threatening yet oddly sensual and sexual performance for China cinema.

I actually thought that he was going to be more evil then he came out to be. I was convinced most of the movie that Shang Chi's mom had discovered that he was secretly trying to find her home anyway and that she escaped or was rescued by her people. His whole turn was far more tragic.

 

[samsnee]

I loved what they did with the character. It wasn’t just him trying to take over the world. When they make the motivation more personal and the the story “smaller”, it really does wonders. Tony Leung made him a very sympathetic character.

 

[The Caped Knight]

Almost like if Darth Vader raised Luke Skywalker to be a weapon

 

[metaphysician]

Almost like if Darth Vader raised Luke Skywalker to be a weapon

A pretty solid analogy. Only its a little better, even, because he didn't dehumanize Shang as a tool for himself, but to make him into the kind of person who could go forth and succeed in the world. So its more like if Darth Vader raised Luke to be the best Sith Lord he possibly could.

 

[Yellow Cyclone]

Is he a huge Hong Kong / Chinese action star?

To be honest, the only movie that I remember seeing him in was Lust, Caution - a VERY different movie from typical HK action, Chinese historical action films. He was excellent in that. Magnetic, threatening yet oddly sensual and sexual performance for China cinema.

I actually thought that he was going to be more evil then he came out to be. I was convinced most of the movie that Shang Chi's mom had discovered that he was secretly trying to find her home anyway and that she escaped or was rescued by her people. His whole turn was far more tragic.

hard boiled is mandatory watching for any action movie lover

 

[BlackFox]

Is he a huge Hong Kong / Chinese action star?

To be honest, the only movie that I remember seeing him in was Lust, Caution - a VERY different movie from typical HK action, Chinese historical action films. He was excellent in that. Magnetic, threatening yet oddly sensual and sexual performance for China cinema.

I actually thought that he was going to be more evil then he came out to be. I was convinced most of the movie that Shang Chi's mom had discovered that he was secretly trying to find her home anyway and that she escaped or was rescued by her people. His whole turn was far more tragic.

Bullet in the Head, Hard Boiled, Hero are classic films that he has major parts in and are well worth checking out. Dude is a legend.

 

[The Infernal]

Even though Wenwu is substantially different than the Mandarin he has even less in common with Fu Manchu. Beyond the dynamic of being Shang-Chi's father that's about all Wenwu has exclusively in common with Fu Manchu. Any other similarities are actually traits that Mandarin and Fu Manchu both share. Both have lived for at least centuries and both know martial arts. Certainly Wenwu is a more sympathetic character than either but the fact he possesses the 10 rings

Spoiler

and has toppled governments etc, as well as the events in the intro of the film before he meets his wife

I see more in common with the Mandarin than Fu Manchu.

Regardless the MCU has changed a lot about their villains. Thanos, Killmonger, Vulture and Nebula (who's not even a villain anymore) are so different in their core intentions or motivations that this is a flaw you could levy at any film adaptation outside of Joker and Magneto.

I'm don't think that I should overlook his connection to Shang Chi and chalk up similarities to the Mandarin in favour of only the Mandarin. At the end of the day they chose to incorporate Fu Manchu into Shang Chi's debut and made it the main plot of the film. I don't see this aging well. The film goes out of its way to ridicule the Mandarin as something Wenwu is embarrassed by, but I don't see the same distancing from the concept of Fu Manchu.

While all characters adapted into the mcu have gone through one change or another I tend not to take the position that they're all exempt from criticism.

Mandarin's motivations seem to change all the time in the comics, so I have no issue with them being changed here.

Thanos' motive changed in the movies from the comics and he worked out well.

That may work for you, but for me him occupying the Fu Manchu role is a bit far. I've liked some changes in the mcu and not others. This is one of those cases where I feel they've wasted potential.

Not that it matters past this film though...

Spoiler

Considering the 10 Rings have a new leader and possible new Mandarin. Which is disappointing to see a character introduced and replaced in the same movie.

 

[Another_Fool]

@The Infernal That's fair for you to feel offended. Anyone can feel how they do. What about the adaptation do you think was offensive or will age poorly? Speaking for myself I thought Wenwu was stripped of virtually everything that we know of Fu Manchu including his motivations from the comics, beyond the fact that Shang-Chi has a dad that he has a complex relationship with. Largely disagree that Wenwu is more like Fu Manchu than Mandarin but that's an agree to disagree scenario.

 

[metaphysician]

Bullet in the Head, Hard Boiled, Hero are classic films that he has major parts in and are well worth checking out. Dude is a legend.

Though be warned, Hero is great visual spectacle if and only if you can get past that it is really, *really* nauseating pro-"CCP is the rightful ruler of all" propaganda. It might as well be called "Why the Chinese government deserves to rule Tibet, the Movie".

 

[metaphysician]

*cough* Anyway, I find it somewhat funny people talk about this as the "real Mandarin" when a huge chunk of his text and subtext is essentially "the Mandarin is a stupid caricature". He's not especially trying to be faithful to the comic version of the Mandarin, and in a lot of ways is no closer to him than Killian was.

And none of this matters especially, because Xu Wenwu works as an awesome and appealing villain, *entirely of his own right*. He may essentially be an original character, formed out of a few small pieces of the Mandarin and Fu Machu/Golden Claw/Zheng Zu, but you know what? Original villains are not bad when they are *good* original villains. I would entirely approve of Marvel Comics retconning either the Mandarin or Shang-Chi's father ( separately or together ) into something more like Wenwu.

 

[The Infernal]

@Another_Fool

I wouldn't say offended, but I have a problem with them using a Fu Manchu/Mandarin amalgam. I think just the concept of him being Shang Chi's father and the leader of an international criminal organisation is a significant parallel. I think what lends credence to the possibility of it aging badly Feige is already doing interviews assuring people Fu Manchu's not in the film, yet the comparisons are obvious.

 

[TheVileOne]

Leung was great in this movie, and I also think turning the 10 rings into Hung Gar type iron rings was a brilliant move.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

@Another_Fool

I wouldn't say offended, but I have a problem with them using a Fu Manchu/Mandarin amalgam. I think just the concept of him being Shang Chi's father and the leader of an international criminal organisation is a significant parallel. I think what lends credence to the possibility of it aging badly Feige is already doing interviews assuring people Fu Manchu's not in the film, yet the comparisons are obvious.

I can't find any example of Feige talking about that post release of Shang-Chi in multiple interviews, I've only seen him mention it in a single interview when he was asked about it by a Chinese film critic that hadn't seen the film.

 

[samsnee]

I loved the way they used the rings in the movie. At first I thought it was just energy projection. But then they were like whips used by Whiplash. Then Shang-Chi used them as platforms like Quill jumping on Strange’s shields in IW. Just great visual work.

 

[Iceman]

I loved the way they used the rings in the movie. At first I thought it was just energy projection. But then they were like whips used by Whiplash. Then Shang-Chi used them as platforms like Quill jumping on Strange’s shields in IW. Just great visual work.

Yes, I also loved that they had many applications. I’m sure they will think up new ways to use them in future films too and they might combine well with the powers of teammates.

 

[The Overlord]

I'm don't think that I should overlook his connection to Shang Chi and chalk up similarities to the Mandarin in favour of only the Mandarin. At the end of the day they chose to incorporate Fu Manchu into Shang Chi's debut and made it the main plot of the film. I don't see this aging well. The film goes out of its way to ridicule the Mandarin as something Wenwu is embarrassed by, but I don't see the same distancing from the concept of Fu Manchu.

While all characters adapted into the mcu have gone through one change or another I tend not to take the position that they're all exempt from criticism.



That may work for you, but for me him occupying the Fu Manchu role is a bit far. I've liked some changes in the mcu and not others. This is one of those cases where I feel they've wasted potential.

Not that it matters past this film though...

Spoiler

Considering the 10 Rings have a new leader and possible new Mandarin. Which is disappointing to see a character introduced and replaced in the same movie.

Conic book movies combine characters all the time, movie William Stryker is a combo of Stryker and the Weapon X Professor, movie Sebastian Shaw has a lot of Mr. Sinister elements.

I am used to that at this point.

 

[Another_Fool]

Thinking about the character, I wonder if the film intended the things that I took about Wenwu's subdued and complicated feelings towards Shang-Chi. Because frankly I just like this character a lot.

Spoiler

Looking at it at face value it seems like ultimately Wenwu simply wants to have the entire family back. But I ended up reading more than that. In all the flashbacks we see Wenwu taking greater interest in training Shang-Chi while seemingly paying little to no attention towards training Xialing. He even takes Shang with him when hunting down Ying Li's killers without her. In a way during the movie I thought it was trying to tell us that Shang was the favored offspring and the one Wenwu trusted most.

Instead it all changes towards the end once Wenwu reveals his resentment at Shang-Chi for doing nothing as a child when Ying was murdered. It recalibrated how I read the flashbacks. Now I look at Wenwu recruiting his son and training him to kill the murderer of Ying not as favoring Shang-Chi but rather a debt that must be paid for letting his mother die without a fight. Xialing he never blames which is why outside of Wenwu's obsession he also leaves her alone and pays her no mind. In his eyes she's done nothing wrong however Wenwu is broken and lets both his children leave him.

And I think Wenwu struggles internally, knowing he shouldnt resent Shang-Chi for Ying's death and that's why he's so obsessed with bringing her back, because not only would she return and his family presumably reunited, but he also could finally let go of his resentment towards his son.

I recognize I may have read too much into it but that resentment adds so much more to Wenwu's arc than if he never said it. Love it if the film intended it.

 

[henry_9305]

Is he a huge Hong Kong / Chinese action star?

To be honest, the only movie that I remember seeing him in was Lust, Caution - a VERY different movie from typical HK action, Chinese historical action films. He was excellent in that. Magnetic, threatening yet oddly sensual and sexual performance for China cinema.

I actually thought that he was going to be more evil then he came out to be. I was convinced most of the movie that Shang Chi's mom had discovered that he was secretly trying to find her home anyway and that she escaped or was rescued by her people. His whole turn was far more tragic.

I am from HK, and we never consider him as an action star but a brilliant actor. Beside of the classic action films he starred in, he has been in plenty of dramas, comedies and romance films and is great in all of them. In HK almost half of the people that went to see this film is because of him. Dude is amazing.

 

[The Infernal]

I can't find any example of Feige talking about that post release of Shang-Chi in multiple interviews, I've only seen him mention it in a single interview when he was asked about it by a Chinese film critic that hadn't seen the film.

Is that the important point, that Feige hasn't said it multiple times? I think the point is that Feige has made his public position that Fu Manch is not in the movie, yet most people can clearly recognise Wenwu was partially based on him.