Wonder Woman vs the Dark Knight

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Thank you Sir, you're too kind !

Having mulled over my last post I will say this.....the DCCU has done a very good job with some aspects of their characters so far, in terms of bringing a comic book super hero to life, and by far WW has been the best:

Superman, well HC totally looks the part and word down here is that he's really nice in person - and there are a few moments in man of steel when he really feels like Superman come to life .

Batman, well the suit is good and he fights as I would imagine Batman does, but otherwise... ( btw I was wrong, Miller's Dark Knight does kill someone in the comic, the mutant thug who was threatening the kidnapped baby - but hey in his Batmobile he uses rubber bullets).


Wonder Woman on the other hand I feel has really captured the essence of the character - mostly her strength and compassion. Recent comic portrayals of WW have shown her as often very aggressive. Have to say I prefer the movie version who is super tough ( I mean when she kills Ares, and says " Good bye brother." that sums it up) but is still a very noble character at the same time.

Something I thought TDK got right about Batman that B v S got dead wrong.
 
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Skrilla, I absolutely respect your opinion that TDK is overrated and that it doesn't belong in the conversation of being an all-timer. You are entitled to that opinion. All I have tried to do here is provide evidence as to why people might feel differently than you do. So even though you may personally disagree, you can at least see why the argument can be made for those people.

You've presented awards, accolades and reviews. A.K.A. the popular opinion.

The popular opinion isn't always correct. Plenty of terrible things throughout history have occured because it was in line with popular opinion. Moreso there have been films unjustly praised and criticized because of popular opinion.

I never once disputed that TDK was a financially successful, widely popular, critically acclaimed movie. I'm disputing that it belongs in the same conversation as The Godfather and other all time adult classics.

Now if someone wants to debate me on that, using the merits of the film itself, and NOT just what other people have said about it... then I will entertain it.
 
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Okay, so to get back to the original topic......from the poll TDK is the clear favorite.

Of course, that begs the question "why?"

What is it about TDK that makes it better than WW ?

Bale vs Gadot ? Gotta go with Bale, as he's performing a multifaceted role and personally I don't think he got enough credit for it.

Gadot, well there's a little bit of the old Christopher Reeve Superman about her - but whereas Reeve was a very good actor, she's merely a decent one, albeit she does a lot with that role. What I mean is that she's probably going to embody WW for an entire generation (well, who didn't grow up with Lynda Carter) and she's extremely likeable as the character.

The one moment where I feel like she falls flat is when she goes back to the village that's been gassed - she almost pulls off WW's reaction, but not quite .

Because I found the supporting cast and villains really weak in WW, Gal shines even brighter - good on her !


Action: Well in terms of fight choreography WW is definitely better, but in terms of overall action scenes gotta go with TDK (because to me an action scene needs more than just punches, kicks, shooting and sword swinging, there needs to be tension and drama too). Because Nolan did so much of TDK using practical effects the action scenes feel like they've got some stakes - unlike pure CGI battles (which was what ruined the Hobbit movies for me, and I was in one of them)


TDK has a pretty amazing car chase and the Pruitt building rescue is spectacular - and also very authentic Batman, if you think about it, because he uses a combination of brains, fists and gadgets to neutralize all the threats without killing anyone, I would argue that this is MUCH closer to the spirit of the character - even Miller's Dark Knight wasn't a killer ! Sure there are no fancy kicks or pretty choreography, but that was part of Nolan's approach.

Having said that the way GG moves and fights is pretty much how I always imagined she'd move and fight - she's a whirlwind of destruction. The bit where she liberates the town is pretty damn impressive.


Supporting cast: To be honest I feel that Gal pretty much carried the WW movie by herself. Chris Pine was okay, but most of his dialogue was very poorly written and terribly timed. The moment where he tells her he loves her - as he rushes off to certain death - just doesn't hit the right note.
The bit where he tries to sweet talk Dr. Poison was just painful. ugh.

Gotta give TDK a huge edge here, and we're not even talking about Ledger yet. Freeman, Oldman and Caine absolutely bring it.


Music: I think the WW guitar riff is going to become iconic with time - However, got to give Zimmer the edge for TDK, I felt this was his best work on the trilogy ( I found the TDKR theme a bit overblown).

The Joker's theme really seals this one.


Storytelling: TDK does drag in a few parts, and I feel like it could have been 5-10 minutes shorter without losing anything important. However, there are sensible peaks and troughs in the drama to keep the audience engaged.

WW has a very strong opening and second act, but I wasn't glued to my seat. Good storytelling, but not great.

I think both films have a few equally prepostorous moments, but hey they're cbms.


Villains: okay not even close. Ledger's Joker is one of the great screen villains of all time. In WW I didn't find any of the villains anything more than cardboard cut-outs, even Ares wasn't particularly memorable. Danny Huston's character was well acted, but such a one-note bad guy, ugh.




Now in terms of where I stand on TDK, the following is my opinion:

TDK is the Godfather......the Godfather of cbms. The movie is great, slow but great. The book, well it's one of those that you start reading and can't put down.

This is a good post.
 
It's a closer race than I'd have thought last month, but TDK is the clear winner here.
 
I don't think TDK was slow at all. It moves at breakneck speed.
 
Wonder Woman is a great movie and is in the upper crust of superhero films.

The Dark Knight is, IMO, a masterpiece and the best of all time. I don't really think it's close.
 
I don't think TDK was slow at all. It moves at breakneck speed.

Totally agree. From the very first scene it's almost relentless. I've never heard it described as "slow" before. If anything it doesn't let you come up for air.

TDKR, on the other hand...
 
Upon further review, I am changing my vote to The Dark Knight for now. It was just a better-crafted and more original movie.
 
I don't believe there will ever be a comic book film that surpasses TDK in acclaim ever. Comic book films are made with a very franchise mentality now. Nolan never envisioned a a trilogy for his Batman movies, and mostly their own standalone fair. That isn't to say there hasn't been solid cbm since that could stand on their own, but they will always be seen as part of a chapter in a larger narrative.
 
The problem with The Dark Knight is it was too successful. It set the idea in at WB that all movies have to be the Dark Knight to be popular and taken seriously. Wonder Woman was able to break that
stranglehold on that philosophy at WB. By showing that characters don't have to be a Batman clone to succeed.
 
Even i think Joker is overrate villian he's still better than Ares.
 
You've presented awards, accolades and reviews. A.K.A. the popular opinion.

The popular opinion isn't always correct. Plenty of terrible things throughout history have occured because it was in line with popular opinion. Moreso there have been films unjustly praised and criticized because of popular opinion.

I never once disputed that TDK was a financially successful, widely popular, critically acclaimed movie. I'm disputing that it belongs in the same conversation as The Godfather and other all time adult classics.

Now if someone wants to debate me on that, using the merits of the film itself, and NOT just what other people have said about it... then I will entertain it.




I totally agree with you about the popular opinion, kinda annoys me because sometimes I feel like people just repeat it in order to get others to agree with them, because it feels good being "right".


However, I try to watch and only judge based on how a film makes me feel personally, and I do hold TDK Trilogy as well as Watchmen on that level of movies that I enjoy on the same level as The Godfather or Apocalyose Now or Taxi Driver. But I am totally willing to admit a large part of that is bias because of how much I love the source material. But also, I could be a little bias towards The Godfather because of how much I love the gangster genre, or Zodiac because of how much I love the true crime genre.


I feel like Logan and BvS are skirting around that level, as well. But I'm still waiting for that Batman or Superman or X-Men (but especially Batman) film that really lives up to the full potential of the source material, or in other words, what I want to see from a film based on those characters (which might differ from popular opinion). I still really love those films, though. And I really can't see a single Watchmen film doing any better of a job than Snyder's film
 
I wonder how people will feel about Wonder Woman in 9 years.

My personal opinion? People probably won't think much of it. Especially if Captain Marvel turns out great and we get other female led cbm's in upcoming years.

it will depend upon how well the WW sequel and final 3rd film does, after the first was such a hit-smash success.

the Captain Marvel movie will be interesting as it isn't as popular and heard of character as wonder Woman was among non-comic fans and viewers.
Keep wondering how will they manage to hype it up and make believers
out of the movie critics and viewers .
 
The problem with The Dark Knight is it was too successful. It set the idea in at WB that all movies have to be the Dark Knight to be popular and taken seriously. Wonder Woman was able to break that
stranglehold on that philosophy at WB. By showing that characters don't have to be a Batman clone to succeed.

I got a different vibe with DK success vs WW success.

Only problem I could see with the Dark Knight is it's greatest element was
the twisting and turning plots, the element of surprise. Once you've seen it, for first time it was the Bomb, just mind-goggling.. now after all the passing years, the surprise/twists come routine , and the weakest element of DK which was the action sequences, pretty bland and ordinary.

WW had it's own surprise in that it was staged in the era of World War 2.
though I saw the pic on Batman vs Superman, I didn't think WW movie would enter that stage.
The naivety and adaptation also spurned the WW element I thought.
Only weak spots I thought were the pace became so what too long and slow at certain periods and spots.
..and of course the villain ( or actor portraying the villain) who was a bit too goofy looking for my liking. Which that was a better casting.
 

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