World Wouldn't It Be Great If...

[Herr Logan]

Maybe it'd be easier if it was revealed that someone had been guiding Wanda's ripples and bending reality for the past few years affecting many events and characters.This would end up causing an alternate reality to bleed into 616.


Or maybe that sounds too much like Crisis.

Or maybe that sounds too much like validating Bendis' tremendous ego trip all over the Marvel Universe. That in itself is wrong.

 

[Abaddon]

Or maybe that sounds too much like validating Bendis' tremendous ego trip all over the Marvel Universe. That in itself is wrong.

True.But sometimes its better to undo something crappy by using that same crappy thing against itself,rather than introduce something new and slightly crappy but still contrived and convoluted.If that makes sense.

 

[Herr Logan]

True.But sometimes its better to undo something crappy by using that same crappy thing against itself,rather than introduce something new and slightly crappy but still contrived and convoluted.If that makes sense.

I will not support a retcon that validates Bendis' bull$hit.

 

[TheWhiteSpider]

Would It Be Great If....

Ben Reilly really did replace Peter Parker. And Peter Parker really were the clone. And Aunt May would have stayed dead. ASM # 400 wouldn't have been made a mockery of. Peter Parker, the clone, would have moved to Oregon with his hot supermodel, but nagging wife with their beautiful baby girl, May. Peter would make occassional appearances to help Ben with some of the past villains that he hasn't handled. Ben Reilly would make a life for himself, take back his life as Spider-Man, and he has his entire life in front of him.

All of those pesky retcons that have convulted the Spider-Man mythos would have never happened. Baby May would be alive and well. Peter and Mary Jane could finally be truly happy together without Spider-Man to interfere in their lives. The story of Spider-Man goes on with practically the same exact person with the same exact powers and, for the most part, the same memories...feelings...ideas...emotions...love for passed loved ones. Ben Reilly would always be fighting as Spider-Man for the same reason that Peter did...because with Great Power comes Great Responsibility.

There would have been no return of Norman Osborn. Therefore, no Sins Past.

Sounds to me like the Spidey books would have been better off with Ben Reilly.

These "it all would have been better if they had just kept Ben Reilly" posts are based on faulty logic. The people making that argument are taking things three steps back when there are actually four.

Let's work our way backwards folks.

No Sins Past requires no Osborn return, which requires no need for a mastermind, which requires no clone saga, which requires no clone.

Bringing Ben Reilly into the picture was what started this chain of events in the first place. That saga destabilized the entire mythos and created the chaotic and demoralized atmosphere among the Spider-Man writers' group in which the idea of Norman Osborn being alive could be uttered without causing gut splitting laughter. Sure, many didn't like it, but after all that had taken place they could only shrug.

There were so many supposedly dead characters and demi gods running around, throwaways that appeared and dissolved in 10 pages; so many people watching people, who were watching other people, who were watching Friends -- but also watching the people who were watching Ben staring through the window wishing he had Pete's life [....], that the books had become an absolute farce. Was bringing Norman back, or any other ridiculous plotline that followed, a stretch in an environment like that?

Surely you could see the potential for stories such as:
- Ben dating, and trying to reform, Doctor Octopus [Ala Black Cat].
- Ben being sought out by the dying Gwen clone, who confesses she had a child with the Miles Warren clone, who aged rapidly and is the serial killer Ben has been hunting: "The Jack of all Trades."
- Ben becoming the chosen warrior to fight on the side of heaven, taking Judas' place after Scrier betrayed and killed him, in a war against Mephisto's invading forces. This would culminate in Ben's battle against the negative energies that fled the souls of Janine, Aunt May, Gwen and Uncle Ben when they went to paradise.

Those scenarios were feasible in a post clone saga, Spider-Ben era.



Simply put, the writers made bad choices. They could have chosen to avoid stories like the Man-Spider saga. They didn't. They could have avoided stories like the Gathering of Five. They didn't. It is disingenuous to focus on a single writing choice you felt they made wrong [ousting Ben], while ignoring the dozens of other paths they might have taken which also could have resulted in good Spider-Man stories. Stories that didn't require separating Peter Parker and Spider-Man into different characters. Was that some insurmountable challenge for Marvel?

You can call the rejection of the clone saga what you will, but fans simply will not accept the separation of an iconic comic hero book from his alter ego. It would never have lasted. Neither would Ben have been a part of good Spider-Man stories unless the writers made good creative choices. If that was all that was needed, why not apply such choices to Peter Parker?

 

[Rez]

You can call the rejection of the clone saga what you will, but fans simply will not accept the separation of an iconic comic hero book from his alter ego. It would never have lasted. Neither would Ben have been a part of good Spider-Man stories unless the writers made good creative choices. If that was all that was needed, why not apply such choices to Peter Parker?

The REASON the clone as Ben was reintroduced was quite similar to where we are right now.

Everyone was fed up.

Peter Parker and Spiderman had gone through so much out of charecter writing and so many poor creative decisions that people wanted to return things to a good starting place.

Enter Ben Reilly!

It seems to me you are suggesting that the Clone Saga in general was the first domino in this bad chain of events. Take a look at my post- If they had stuck on track with it, that would have been avoided.

But that's getting off topic. The point is, right now, we are in a thread begging for the last 10 years of Spiderman to have all been a terrible dream, a plot by Mysterio, Ben Reilly in disguise... again.. Something, anything else than what it really has been.

When the irony of it all is that the Clone Saga AROSE out the same exact situation, with the goal of fixing it all.
However, instead of sticking to the PLAN of fixing it all, they pooped out. And it took us down a path even worse than before.

 

[TheWhiteSpider]

The REASON the clone as Ben was reintroduced was quite similar to where we are right now.

Everyone was fed up.

Peter Parker and Spiderman had gone through so much out of charecter writing and so many poor creative decisions that people wanted to return things to a good starting place.

The answer to out of character writing and poor creative decisions is in character writing and good creative decisions. Simple, no?

Once upon a time the writers of Spider-Man made some misjudgements on the character's direction. Instead of coming up with a new, better direction, they chose to introduce a long dead villain, mystical characters, a mega event and other nonsense. That was 1993-1994.


The self stated goal of the clone saga was to "shake the Spiderverse like it's never been shaken before!" Yeah, they shook it so hard that Peter Parker and his entire supporting cast fell out.

Enter Ben Reilly!

Ben didn't appear from thin air. Stories are planned up to a year in advance. Remember when Peter started acting psychotic and out of character? Guess who was on his way to town to fix the newly created problem.

It seems to me you are suggesting that the Clone Saga in general was the first domino in this bad chain of events. Take a look at my post- If they had stuck on track with it, that would have been avoided.

The clone saga began long before Power and Responsibility, my friend. Some of the things you say people were "fed up" about were done in order to build up to the saga, itself. There was no outcry amongst Spider-Man fans before the robo-parents/Man-Spider arc. The arc which lead directly to the clone saga. Do you believe the writers at Marvel created the clone saga to appease the fans? If so, you're mistaken. They were trying to create a Death of Superman/Batman: Knightfall/Age of Apocalypse style event -- as they have stated.

The writers involved admit that the books were an absolute creative mess during the saga, and totally out of control because of it.

Demi gods were not running around with Aunt May's supposed soul in a jar because Ben was voted out. Clone armies of hundreds of Peter Parkers were not bouncing around because they abandoned "plan Ben." Those things happened because the storyline was ridiculous. At one point, people even thought the character of Spider-Man was gone as well as Peter Parker, leaving comic store owners exasperated over the confusion readers had on the matter.

What I'm reminding people of is the fact that saga itself was as silly as the things happening today, and wounded the franchise -- all the way down to the individual writers -- before Ben was declared the clone or killed. Spidercide came before they backtracked. Maximum Clonage came before they backtracked. Peter as the Jackal's flunky came before they backtracked. All those terrible things that people point to and laugh [or cry] were all a part of the original plan.

The problem was bringing in ideas like robot parents and previously dead clones and villains, in the first place.

But that's getting off topic. The point is, right now, we are in a thread begging for the last 10 years of Spiderman to have all been a terrible dream, a plot by Mysterio, Ben Reilly in disguise... again.. Something, anything else than what it really has been.

And you know what the solution to the problem is? Good, creative writing. The same solution they should have applied the first time.

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Ya know, I love how people blame th' Clone Saga fer alla this. THEY HAD PLENTY OF TIME TO RECOVER. They dropped th' ball, end of story.

 

[TheWhiteSpider]

Ya know, I love how people blame th' Clone Saga fer alla this. THEY HAD PLENTY OF TIME TO RECOVER. They dropped th' ball, end of story.

Wolv, I'm not blaming the saga. I'm blaming poor writing and direction, in any form. Saying Ben Reilly would have made it all better ignores the fact that it takes good writing to make great comics. A character is only as good as he is written. Whatever his name is.

 

[Citizen_Kaine]

Everything after Ben put on the Spider Man costume was great, I'm one of the few (If any) who generally disliked the Scarlet Spider days of the Saga. WhiteSpider I'll agree with you on how most of the early parts of the CS were borderline ridiculous, Traveller and Aunt May's soul, the introduction of the Jokel, and Maximum Cloneage Omega. Padding arcs even before the notion of our modern tpb's existed didn't help things either. However there is absolutly no way, anyone can tell me that the stories from Sensational Spider Man 0 onwards were anything but Spider Man perfection. Everything was solid

Interesting Cast - Check
Romantic Interests - Check
Classic Rogues - Check
Well Thought Out Storylines - Check, Check and Check

Blood Brothers, Revelations, Return of Spider Man, Media Blizzard, Return of Kaine, Onslaught Impact, all **** or higher reads

Hell even the typical Carnage storyline was good

Unfortunatly this run of greatness by Defalco, DeMaties, Jurgens, and Dezago was still being linked with the Mackie/Kavanagh crapola that the Clone Saga is constantly blanketed with. People we're still refusing to give Reilly a chance, even when Peter and Mj were brought in as supporting cast.

So Marvel did a 180 with Spidey and went back to where they started, with whiny, self loathing, bitter emo Pete, and still genereated quality stories like:

Goblins at the Gate, Identity Crisis, Hobgoblin Lives, Black Tarantula arc, Evil Incarnate and Spider Hunt.

The Clone Saga is innocent of these false charges labled against it. Hell after "Maximum Bonage" the stories were returning to new heights in quality, and as seen later, the stories were still consistant quality wise during the Post Saga years.

 

[TheWhiteSpider]

Everything after Ben put on the Spider Man costume was great, I'm one of the few (If any) who generally disliked the Scarlet Spider days of the Saga. WhiteSpider I'll agree with you on how most of the early parts of the CS were borderline ridiculous, Traveller and Aunt May's soul, the introduction of the Jokel, and Maximum Cloneage Omega. Padding arcs even before the notion of our modern tpb's existed didn't help things either. However there is absolutly no way, anyone can tell me that the stories from Sensational Spider Man 0 onwards were anything but Spider Man perfection. Everything was solid

Interesting Cast - Check
Romantic Interests - Check
Classic Rogues - Check
Well Thought Out Storylines - Check, Check and Check

Blood Brothers, Revelations, Return of Spider Man, Media Blizzard, Return of Kaine, Onslaught Impact, all **** or higher reads

Hell even the typical Carnage storyline was good

Unfortunatly this run of greatness by Defalco, DeMaties, Jurgens, and Dezago was still being linked with the Mackie/Kavanagh crapola that the Clone Saga is constantly blanketed with. People we're still refusing to give Reilly a chance, even when Peter and Mj were brought in as supporting cast.

So Marvel did a 180 with Spidey and went back to where they started, with whiny, self loathing, bitter emo Pete, and still genereated quality stories like:

Goblins at the Gate, Identity Crisis, Hobgoblin Lives, Black Tarantula arc, Evil Incarnate and Spider Hunt.

The Clone Saga is innocent of these false charges labled against it. Hell after "Maximum Bonage" the stories were returning to new heights in quality, and as seen later, the stories were still consistant quality wise during the Post Saga years.

I respect your opinion about the Ben as Spider-Man era. That's how you felt about it. However, I reject the idea, that some have, that removing Ben led to this. There is a deeper history than that which we all know. Besides, bad writing is what created Spider-Man's problems over the years, and there is no guarantee that Ben as Spidey would not have faced that problem.

 

[Rez]

And you know what the solution to the problem is? Good, creative writing. The same solution they should have applied the first time.

I'll give you that. At least were in agreement that that is the solution.

But I still hold by the statement that ditching Ben was the wrong way to go.

 

[Citizen_Kaine]

I'll give you that. At least were in agreement that that is the solution.

But I still hold by the statement that ditching Ben was the wrong way to go.

Ditto on both statements

 

[Rez]

I respect your opinion about the Ben as Spider-Man era. That's how you felt about it. However, I reject the idea, that some have, that removing Ben led to this. There is a deeper history than that which we all know. Besides, bad writing is what created Spider-Man's problems over the years, and there is no guarantee that Ben as Spidey would not have faced that problem.

No guarantee is very true. But I think that not even you could disagree that getting rid of him(and in turn, essentially ditching his half of the book- his supporting charecters, locations, and villians) closed out a lot of possibile storylines, both good and bad, depending on the writers.

 

[TheWhiteSpider]

Ditto on both statements

And they say pro Ben and pro Pete Spidey fans can't coexist.

 

[Rez]

Haha! Who says such nonsense! I was pro both of them, myself.
Having them both around was like the new wonder twins, but on crack. Or something. Bad example?

 

[TheWhiteSpider]

Haha! Who says such nonsense! I was pro both of them, myself.
Having them both around was like the new wonder twins, but on crack. Or something. Bad example?

That's hilarious.

 

[Cullen]

I will not support a retcon that validates Bendis' bull$hit.

How about this for a retcon: Superboy Prime punched the universe and the ripple effect transversed the multiverse into the 616, causing decades worth of bad stories.

Oh, and I start dating Power Girl.

If we're going to dream, we may as well dream big.

 

[Herr Logan]

How about this for a retcon: Superboy Prime punched the universe and the ripple effect transversed the multiverse into the 616, causing decades worth of bad stories.

Oh, and I start dating Power Girl.

If we're going to dream, we may as well dream big.

We want to blame this on DC Comics, now?

Good luck with your dream, by the way.

 

[SpideyInATree]

I'm in favor of chalking all that bull$hit up to Mysterio (the real one, that is, who wouldn't be dead even if 'Guardian Devil' had actually happened, because anyone who thinks a master illusionist can't fake his death in front of Daredevil is an idiot child) enhancing his shenanigans with the Cosmic Cube or something like that, creating a completely false ten years of Marvel History.

If you've read Spider-Man/Black Cat The Evil That Men Do you'd know that there is a new Mysterio on the loose. And it could easily fit into continuity as well.

 

[SpideyInATree]

No Sins Past requires no Osborn return, which requires no need for a mastermind, which requires no clone saga, which requires no clone.

No offense. But that statement...right there....shows you must not have read the Life of Reilly 35 part article which showed a behind the scenes look at Marvel's writers, artists, and editorial during the entire fiasco.

Norman Osborn wasn't even brought into the equation until they were already far into the Clone Saga. There was supposed to be a mastermind and it wasn't going to be Norman Osborn. Due to the outcry of fans and dropping sales they decided to go into a different direction. And brought back Norman Osborn. And with that ended the life of Baby May and Ben Reilly in one swoop.

 

[Herr Logan]

If you've read Spider-Man/Black Cat The Evil That Men Do you'd know that there is a new Mysterio on the loose. And it could easily fit into continuity as well.

I did read that piece of trash, and I already addressed that. That isn't Mysterio. That's Kevin Smith being a hack. The second to last sentence can't be argued at this point, as he hasn't actually done anything under the pretense of being Mysterio, yet. There's no guarantee he'll ever make use of that costume and gear, Kevin Smith being a fair-weather dillitante in the comic book world and all, although being a pessimist, I won't be suprised if another writer decides to run with Smith's half-assed replacement concept.

I'm talking about Quentin Beck, a.k.a. the real Mysterio. The reason I don't hold Kevin Smith in contempt for killing the real Mysterio is because he can't truly be killed. Death is transient enough in the Marvel Universe in general, much less with a person whose expertise is fooling people into seeing, hearing, smelling and feeling things that aren't what they appear to be. He's not dead. Hell, he's even more "not dead" than Eddie Brock, and Eddie Brock isn't even close to dead. No body, no death, and more than half the time these days in the Marvel U., even a body doesn't guarantee death.

 

[SpideyInATree]

You know...all I said was that there is a new Mysterio on the loose and it could fit into continuity.

But...ok.

 

[TheWhiteSpider]

No offense. But that statement...right there....shows you must not have read the Life of Reilly 35 part article which showed a behind the scenes look at Marvel's writers, artists, and editorial during the entire fiasco.

Norman Osborn wasn't even brought into the equation until they were already far into the Clone Saga. There was supposed to be a mastermind and it wasn't going to be Norman Osborn. Due to the outcry of fans and dropping sales they decided to go into a different direction. And brought back Norman Osborn. And with that ended the life of Baby May and Ben Reilly in one swoop.

Actually I have. What you're quoting is an incomplete part of a larger point. The clone saga and all the nuttiness surrounding it created a climate in which Norman Osborn could return, whereas such a climate did not exist before the saga. The fact that he did return as an outcome of the saga is the living proof. In L.o.R., even the writers admit the saga had highly ridiculous elements and got out of control. Hard for that to happen if the event never happened, don't you think?

 

[Herr Logan]

You know...all I said was that there is a new Mysterio on the loose and it could fit into continuity.

But...ok.

Uh huh. Thanks for the newsflash. See ya 'round.

 

[Grim Goblin]

I'm going with TheWhiteSpider here in saying that the whole problem is the bad writing. If you think about it for a second, the only reason those things worked well with Ben was because they approached his stories thinking it was a fresh character to develop. So they gave him a supporting cast and developed it. They gave him villains and developed them, etc...

Basicaly, they did everything right. But only because they approached it the way they would a fresh character. Had they done the same with Peter, it would have worked just as well. The problem is, they don't develop old characters in ways that aren't "shocking" and meant to "break the internet in half". They just cut-paste the same old attitudes and dialogue and call it a day.