Abstinence-Only Education vs Sex Education

[StorminNorman]

You think we teenagers give a flying **** about that at 16-18? use your head man, we're in the 21st century and most teenagers have drank at least once through their life in high school. No teenager loves someone, we fantasize, that's it! Our parent might have married after HS, but that's a different time, different society. The ideas of the olden days are pretty much useless now. Teenagers go to parties, get high, and drunk, shocking I know. WE HAVE SEX. Ever heard of one night stands? It can not be stopped, the only thing you can do is protect us from diseases and pregnancy. After a few years of hammering it into our head, teenagers will know how to protect themselves.

No, I don't think teenagers give a flying **** about that. That's the problem. The notion of "it can not be stopped" is asinine. This attitude is the direct consequence of a century of bad philosophy in many sectors of society (think the Dark Ages, or the Roman empire). What we need is a more enlightened society.

I am not saying it's easy, but it certainly can be done. Temptation can be overcome, even at a young age. It just requires the proper upbringing. It's nothing that government can do.

These issues go much, much deeper than simply "sex ed". Western Civilization has decended into a culture of adicating personal responsibility and arrogant entitlement. It's why we have idiot kids in Europe rioting for more government rights, it's why we have people in America celebrating swiping their EBT.

 

[Snare]

No, I don't think teenagers give a flying **** about that. That's the problem. The notion of "it can not be stopped" is asinine. This attitude is the direct consequence of a century of bad philosophy in many sectors of society (think the Dark Ages, or the Roman empire). What we need is a more enlightened society.

I am not saying it's easy, but it certainly can be done. Temptation can be overcome, even at a young age. It just requires the proper upbringing. It's nothing that government can do.

These issues go much, much deeper than simply "sex ed". Western Civilization has decended into a culture of adicating personal responsibility and arrogant entitlement. It's why we have idiot kids in Europe rioting for more government rights, it's why we have people in America celebrating swiping their EBT.

There's no reason for it to be overcome. Just slap on a Johnny and do it till your heart's content. It's the most normal thing anyone can do. The above poster is right, you sound like you've stepped out of the 1950's, or from behind the alter. Get real and get with the times, sex is sex, and sex is fun.

Ironically, the most arrogant thing someone can do is trying to instill their beliefs on others.

 

[StorminNorman]

Our society is pretty damn enlightened already? Does enlightned to you mean going back to the old days?

No, it's not. Look at the quality of people in Washington that are elected by these enlightened masses. I am not a conservative, I have no use for tradition-for-the-sake-of-tradition. We need a higher emphasis on reason, not faith.

Living in Bible Belt is also helpful. Sex isn't that sacred thing it used to be. It's hopeless to think we can go back. Hormones are hormones, so unless every teenager is given a 3 year supply of the finest porn in all the land, we'll still have sex. Wait, scratch that. That'd just make us have more sex.

Testosterone is testosterone. There are times whereI would love to deck some *******s. That doesn't mean its a good idea to do so. Again, part of being civilized is acting beyond primal urges. Individuals have free will, we aren't slaves to hormones.

I agree with you on this one. A lot of societies definitely have become spoiled and arrogant, like the UK and even America. Countries are falling apart, so that has to be an element of these riots. I think it's only a matter of time before riots start showing up in the US.

I have more faith in America than I do Europe. I love the fact the largest American youth movement is Ron Paul, not more food stamps.

 

[StorminNorman]

There's no reason for it to be overcome. Just slap on a Johnny and do it till your heart's content. It's the most normal thing anyone can do. The above poster is right, you sound like you've stepped out of the 1950's, or from behind the alter. Get real and get with the times, sex is sex, and sex is fun.

Ironically, the most arrogant thing someone can do is trying to instill their beliefs on others.

I used to agree with you. Then I learned better.

I have no interest in forcing others to agree with me. Again, I don't want people to be forced to be more responsible and selective with who they plow. What we need is people smart enough to make such decisions for themselves.

 

[Lighthouse]

You know, I've always thought sex education would only get us so far, and I wonder if sometimes people are focusing on the wrong thing. Groups focus so heavily on the sex side, but forget one hugely important aspect in many unwanted pregnancies and STDs. Alcohol. I'm astonished how little alcohol is talked about with any kind of sex education. Condoms and birth control are great, but how many people make the smart decision to use them when they are blitzed out of their mind. Focusing on teaching about the dangers of alcohol would help with both drunk driving and unwanted consequences of sex.

 

[Snare]

I used to agree with you. Then I learned better.

I have no interest in forcing others to agree with me. Again, I don't want people to be forced to be more responsible and selective with who they plow. What we need is people smart enough to make such decisions for themselves.

Got uptight and out of touch more like.

Smart youths choose to have sex everyday with no consequences. You do realise sex can be practiced safely? Use protection and there isn't an issue. Do it as often as you want, with whoever you want, it isn't an issue and it isn't irresponsible.

Again, part of being civilized is acting beyond primal urges. Individuals have free will, we aren't slaves to hormones.

Being civil has nothing to do with overcoming sexual urges with a consenting partner. The only way in which that would apply is when talking about rape or sex with an under aged person. People can be civilised and sexually active from a young age at the same time. Teenagers and young adults ****ing each other doesn't negatively impact society one bit, if practiced safely. How anyone could see an enjoyable act, done in the ways I've detailed as wrong is beyond me.

Also, equating the urge to have sex with the urge to punch someone is completely absurd.

 

[StorminNorman]

Got uptight and out of touch more like.

Smart youths choose to have sex everyday with no consequences. You do realise sex can be practiced safely? Use protection and there isn't an issue. Do it as often as you want, with whoever you want, it isn't an issue and it isn't irresponsible.

Being civil has nothing to do with overcoming sexual urges with a consenting partner. The only way in which that would apply is when talking about rape or sex with an under aged person. People can be civilised and sexually active from a young age at the same time. Teenagers and young adults ****ing each other doesn't negatively impact society one bit, if practiced safely. How anyone could see an enjoyable act, done in the ways I've detailed as wrong is beyond me.

Again, my concern has little to do with health concerns. (Though lets not fool ourselves into thinking that the same teenager who is willing to **** anything that moves aren't going to pull a "just this one time" if put into a situation where they are unprepared.)

How old are you? Just curious.

Also, equating the urge to have sex with the urge to punch someone is completely absurd.

Both are homornal reactions.

 

[SentinelMind]

You think we teenagers give a flying **** about that at 16-18? use your head man, we're in the 21st century and most teenagers have drank at least once through their life in high school. No teenager loves someone, we fantasize, that's it! Our parent might have married after HS, but that's a different time, different society. The ideas of the olden days are pretty much useless now. Teenagers go to parties, get high, and drunk, shocking I know. WE HAVE SEX. Ever heard of one night stands? It can not be stopped, the only thing you can do is protect us from diseases and pregnancy. After a few years of hammering it into our head, teenagers will know how to protect themselves.

Also, no offense but you sound like a dude from the 1950's in the south saying this. The whole "have sex with those you love" thing is for catholic schools, we're talking about public schools that have no religion, at least in my experience. 21st century logic and thinking is the best way to go with these things

I'll let someone smarter than me touch this one

Wow, if you're representative of society, I'm really scared for the future. Stormin isn't even arguing for a virginity pledge, just that people take issue of sex more seriously...treating ourselves as more than just a bag of primal urges. It is possible, but you have to have self-respect and proper value system instilled. It's true lot of kids nowadays as a product of culture
I have friends from high school who are pregnant around graduation and have baby mothers and baby daddies and feel discouraged, emotional intimacy issues. There is a consequence of the health actions you take...the problem is some are immature to see beyond their horniness...it's analogous to someone who overeats and binge drinks...there are consequences whether you choose to see long term or not.

 

[redhawk23]

His argument assumes that sex is immoral, which is not something everyone agrees with.
Nor is sex necessarily emotionally or psychologically damaging.

 

[SentinelMind]

Casual sex assumes risks and has consequences on everyone..regardless of whether you want to think about it.
Just be frank admit that satisfying horny lust now is more important to you than worrying about down the road. Just be frank. Don't create some justification beyond that.

There is risk of pregnancy, STDs,

Even if you didn't get a woman pregnant, there is a risk the woman may claim you're the father anyway.......now you're glad to know she had sex with other guys. Unaffordable paternity suits.

Out of wedlock births produces children at a social disadvantage.

Scorned women who think its love then become silently bitter. It may start out as casual, but you develop envy when you see that person with someone else. All this "It's Complicated" BS.

Unplanned pregnancies now produce burden on families, society, government bureacracies...

People believe entitled to other people's money, teenagers that believe I should pay for their birth control pills. Let's not forget the thousands of abortions a year.

Casual sex outside of a committed relationship produces risks for many people involved.

 

[StorminNorman]

His argument assumes that sex is immoral, which is not something everyone agrees with.
Nor is sex necessarily emotionally or psychologically damaging.

No, I have said that sex is wonderful.

 

[Faramir]

The real problem here is the school system in general - not simply sex ed. The quality of the sex ed program is really on par with everything else. We need a complete destruction of centralized government-influenced education and allow a free market in education (we can debate whether there should be a public-funded voucher like aspect or not).

I'll let someone smarter than me touch this one

Sarcasmo, really really forgive me for being blunt, but people smarter than you agree with him.

Alternative education should be more prominent in America. School programs should really be up for debate and market diversity.

For several reasons I'm acquainted with Chile's education system and despite of many problems affecting both public and private education, several alternative schools are really some of the best in their field. One in particular, Education Etievan Model, pays closer attention at awakening the kids individuality and encouraging a healthy their emotional development, something that is somehow butchered in many private schools that focus too much on making the kids competitive in several subjects in detriment of the child's emotional state. They have many alternative methods to expand the kids cultural foundations, raising awareness, instilling cooperation spirits and self confidence to face life, teach them to responsibility and use their wits along with their feelings. They have an open eye for teacher who adjust into their model and build all their activities around a well-defined set of principles. This implies that habits are changed to give creative solutions, so they do not adhere to government-mandated programs. They also maintain close communication with parents, who are often people who are aware of all the features of this model and are very sensitive and educated about what type of education they want their kids to receive.

It was astounding to me how some people could be aware of this issue and able to select a school model that satisfied their needs and their beliefs. Most parents who could afford private education would go for schools that teach kids to work in the children's space program. But there are parents who wouldn't sacrifice their kids personality for that... which is a sensible enough thing to do. School years are crucial to personality, and personality is crucial to living fulfilling lives!

So, it is not a matter of changing education programs... it is a matter of changing education paradigms. It's about less homogenization. It's about having wise teachers that talk to you honesty. Sex-ed can't be about information-giving. To educate is not to "inform". And that's what current mainstream sex-ed is about right now in America (and most parts of the world).

So how can we expect the government to do that, nationally? Sadly, it can't. The government can only do so much without screwing up. Unfortunately, this is something the market should do more. This is something good teachers have to sort out, and to do that they must have their hands freer. Then good, aware parents will choose those teachers and those schools for their children. These parents will lead by example and the best school models will be copied and implemented. No political blocking, no intervention of external decision-makers. Just parents, teachers and schools.

 

[StorminNorman]

Sarcasmo, really really forgive me for being blunt, but people smarter than you agree with him.

Alternative education should be more prominent in America. School programs should really be up for debate and market diversity.

For several reasons I'm acquainted with Chile's education system and despite of many problems affecting both public and private education, several alternative schools are really some of the best in their field. One in particular, Education Etievan Model, pays closer attention at awakening the kids individuality and encouraging a healthy their emotional development, something that is somehow butchered in many private schools that focus too much on making the kids competitive in several subjects in detriment of the child's emotional state. They have many alternative methods to expand the kids cultural foundations, raising awareness, instilling cooperation spirits and self confidence to face life, teach them to responsibility and use their wits along with their feelings. They have an open eye for teacher who adjust into their model and build all their activities around a well-defined set of principles. This implies that habits are changed to give creative solutions, so they do not adhere to government-mandated programs. They also maintain close communication with parents, who are often people who are aware of all the features of this model and are very sensitive and educated about what type of education they want their kids to receive.

It was astounding to me how some people could be aware of this issue and able to select a school model that satisfied their needs and their beliefs. Most parents who could afford private education would go for schools that teach kids to work in the children's space program. But there are parents who wouldn't sacrifice their kids personality for that... which is a sensible enough thing to do. School years are crucial to personality, and personality is crucial to living fulfilling lives!

So, it is not a matter of changing education programs... it is a matter of changing education paradigms. It's about less homogenization. It's about having wise teachers that talk to you honesty. Sex-ed can't be about information-giving. To educate is not to "inform". And that's what current mainstream sex-ed is about right now in America (and most parts of the world).

So how can we expect the government to do that, nationally? Sadly, it can't. The government can only do so much without screwing up. Unfortunately, this is something the market should do more. This is something good teachers have to sort out, and to do that they must have their hands freer. Then good, aware parents will choose those teachers and those schools for their children. These parents will lead by example and the best school models will be copied and implemented. No political blocking, no intervention of external decision-makers. Just parents, teachers and schools.

I don't know where you came from, but you are awesome.

I wish you had been here back in the day when my posts were similiarly substantive, before I got burnt out of preaching on here.

 

[Faramir]

Thank you. You seem much more informed than me, so it's a shame you feel 'burnt out'. I'm fresher, so I'll take the bullet more. Don't give up

 

[bell110]

Great, Stormin Norman 2.0

I kid.

Anyway, I have a problem with the idea of education being left up to the market. After all, it's the same market that perpetrates the sexual culture that you guys are decrying. Remember, sex sells.

 

[Faramir]

Anyway, I have a problem with the idea of education being left up to the market. After all, it's the same market that perpetrates the sexual culture that you guys are decrying. Remember, sex sells.

That's just cheap logic. They're not the same costumers. Sexual culture is out there for everybody; school choice falls ultimately on the parents. And people don't want their children to make bad sexual decisions in their life. But many just tend to be lazy about it and trust the schools criteria. Well, having an array of choices usually gets people moving, makes them be informed. When every school you can afford is run in the same way, they just

I don't decry the sexual culture. I decry poor teaching and poor parenting. That would be like getting mad at the river because the dam is just poorly built. Once education starts being restored, you will see how a market-ruled culture can change. Education standards change and the market will follow.

 

[Franklin Richards]

What the hell does the Market have to do with it?


Not everything can and should be run like a business.

 

[Faramir]

Well, it has been demonstrated that it can be. It has a long tradition.

But I'm listening to you. Why shouldn't it?

 

[Franklin Richards]

Because profit shouldn't dictate the curriculum of schools. Nor should it dictate the student body. Businesses are interested in the bottom line and that's not the most important part of education.

 

[Faramir]

I see that and I say this: "politically motivated interests shouldn't dictate curriculum of schools".

I raise it with:

"Every problem or success in education starts with the quality of teachers. Good teachers make all the difference, and not being able to evaluate, improve or substitute teachers to overcome problems, because politically-motivated bureaucracy takes away school's autonomy to deal with these issue, is a complete disaster."

And I raise it again:

"Government regulated and/or funded schools all over the world tend to be poorly funded and lack the amount of improvement induced by competition.

Also, that type of system also homogenizes schools, so parents don't have a varied choice on what type of education is more appropriate for their children, so the children of very mediocre parents grow better in school, but the kids of great parents tend to get worse.

Alternative public charter or privately funded schools, as well as avenues of getting in the latter (like vouchers or tax credits) are discouraged and directly obstructed by several political groups.

All that can change through market integration. We can argue all we want over the merits of market, but we all can agree that market is waaaay better than the government in two things: diversity and competition. Which, BTW, goes against you that myth of businesses only go for the bottom line which is bogus and completely wrong. In a competition-driven free market with no party having government privileges, the provider of the best and most accessible services is in the lead."

Your turn.

 

[StorminNorman]

Because profit shouldn't dictate the curriculum of schools. Nor should it dictate the student body. Businesses are interested in the bottom line and that's not the most important part of education.

Businesses succeed by fulfilling the needs (and wants) of their customers. Profit is not a bad word. Parents would be the ones deciding what school is right for their child, not government - that's a good thing.

When it comes down to it all services can either be private or public: association by choice or association by order, employment by virtue or by politics, funded by customers or by theft.

 

[bell110]

That's just cheap logic. They're not the same costumers. Sexual culture is out there for everybody; school choice falls ultimately on the parents. And people don't want their children to make bad sexual decisions in their life. But many just tend to be lazy about it and trust the schools criteria. Well, having an array of choices usually gets people moving, makes them be informed. When every school you can afford is run in the same way, they just

I don't decry the sexual culture. I decry poor teaching and poor parenting. That would be like getting mad at the river because the dam is just poorly built. Once education starts being restored, you will see how a market-ruled culture can change. Education standards change and the market will follow.

They are the same customers, the public. What exactly is untrust worthy about school criteria? And if people don't want their children to make bad sexual decisions, why do they support abstinence only education? What happens to the kids whose parents can't afford these private schools? I can't even imagine an education system that's run the same way as a McDonalds or Wal-Mart.

I see that and I say this: "politically motivated interests shouldn't dictate curriculum of schools".

I raise it with:

"Every problem or success in education starts with the quality of teachers. Good teachers make all the difference, and not being able to evaluate, improve or substitute teachers to overcome problems, because politically-motivated bureaucracy takes away school's autonomy to deal with these issue, is a complete disaster."

And I raise it again:

"Government regulated and/or funded schools all over the world tend to be poorly funded and lack the amount of improvement induced by competition.

Also, that type of system also homogenizes schools, so parents don't have a varied choice on what type of education is more appropriate for their children, so the children of very mediocre parents grow better in school, but the kids of great parents tend to get worse.

Alternative public charter or privately funded schools, as well as avenues of getting in the latter (like vouchers or tax credits) are discouraged and directly obstructed by several political groups.

All that can change through market integration. We can argue all we want over the merits of market, but we all can agree that market is waaaay better than the government in two things: diversity and competition. Which, BTW, goes against you that myth of businesses only go for the bottom line which is bogus and completely wrong. In a competition-driven free market with no party having government privileges, the provider of the best and most accessible services is in the lead."

Your turn.

How are political motives dictating education? And private schools already exist, so if parents want that and can afford it, they have that choice. Or home school. Most parents can't. Making schools private would only hurt children. And businesses only going for the bottom line is absolutly true. How can you even deny that?

 

[StorminNorman]

Because profit shouldn't dictate the curriculum of schools. Nor should it dictate the student body. Businesses are interested in the bottom line and that's not the most important part of education.

Or, to put it another way, would you prefer politics to dictate the curriculm? Its either profit or politics. Is there any business that is worse ran their government?

 

[Franklin Richards]

Why do you hate the military, Norm?

 

[StorminNorman]

I don't like innocent people being killed.