World Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man #7 MAJOR SPOILERS SHOCKING RETURN

[Dragon]

Having read your arguments, Dragon over on comicboards, what you say has merit. However, I can understand why PAD was upset; after all, I’m sure if you had produced a movie that had a surprising twist and if that got spoiled all over the net, you’d probably be a little ticked off. This is why I ended up apologizing to PAD in a PM for revealing the comic boards poster’s thread over on the CBR boards feeling that I too had contributed in ruining his story by spreading it to a wider audience. Perhaps it would’ve have been prudent to wait until the issue itself, rather than an advanced copy, had hit the stands (although UK Stu has a very good point--if DC can keep their plots concerning Infinite Crisis secret, how is it that Marvel couldn’t in this case, especially with a revelation unquestionably as explosive as this one?) so I’ve decided I should do that from now on.

But you are absolutely right when it comes to PAD’s behavior towards the poster and to those message boards in general. And because most of those posters were intimidated by PAD due to his reputation, the guy who posted the amendment to their spoiler rule--even though he also said that the poster who spoiled FNSM #7 did nothing wrong--still capitulated. It’s one thing to express to them “I don’t appreciate you ruining a story I worked so hard on. Please be more considerate in the future;” It’s another to continually berate and bully the entire message board long after the apology has been made. Just because he visits there does not mean he can control them. While one may question how they run things, it’s still their board, and he is, despite being a professional comic book writer, a guest of their board. Interestingly enough, PAD doesn’t have control over the character of Spider-Man either--for that is a copyrighted property of Marvel--much less invent the character. Anything he writes regarding Spider-Man has to be approved of first, yet his attitude seems to suggest that Spidey is HIS character (not unlike JMS himself). I realize that, being a would-be writer myself, that creative types have inflated egos, but this was ridiculous.

And if want another example of irony, Dragon, even though this revealation about Uncle Ben occurs at the end of the issue, is not the ending of the story but rather the beginning of a whole new story.



I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if that happened. Because of the spoiler, how many people will actually go out and buy the issue just to see it for themselves (or whether or not the guy was telling the truth) as opposed to not saying anything at all. If FNSM #7 DOES get a boost because of this, then PAD couldn’t have asked for a better publicity agent. Man, all this irony makes me want to listen to an Alanis Morrisette CD.

I completely understand PAD's feelings and respect them. What my problem is- is that he refuses to see anyone's side other than his own. And worse, the mods at Comic Boards knuckled under simply to please him. Most of the posters there had no problem with the way the spoilers were released.

And honestly, I applaud fans who come forward with such information and offer it- as Oz did- in a manner that allows those interested in spoilers to see it, and those who aren't to avoid them. It was hilarious to me over at CB the the ONE POSTER "Honey Bunny" continually blamed Oz for spoiling the book for him. He'd have to be functionally illiterate to have "accidently" read the spoilers. Plain and simple, he read them, then when PAD came out against it, he had to become PAD's lapdog, screaming bloody murder, hoping for a pat on the head.

We fans have been getting burned by Marvel for a good while now with cheap gimmickry and false leads down blind alleys, two issue stories padded out to run 6 months- only to be given the most disappointing and anti-climactic finishes. We're shelling out increasingly higher prices for comic books that they are putting less and less effort into. PAD wants us to buy a pig in a polk, simply because it was his brainchild. It isn't fair, and there's no reason that those who don't mind sharing and receiving the info in advance should be barred from doing so. In sopme cases- it actually leads to greater sales.

And again- Big deal- PAD brought back yet another dead character. Is something like this really a surprise ending? Is it clever? Did he have to rack his brain to show us Uncle Ben?

If Spidey is placed in a real cliffhanger- his back against the wall, facing certain death, and PAD had come up with a clever means by which Spidey escaped and defeated the villain (Yeah.. when was the last time that happened?)- then that's an ending I could understand his being protective of. But not this one. Not worth all the balleyhoo. Because as you said- it's merely the beginning of a whole new story- those who give a damn will still be intrigued to learn just how and why Ben is there, so it means nothing if they already know that he's there.

But the that's the pattern at Marvel. They reject things that would help them generate goodwill and would rather have an antagonistic realtionship with those who are keeping them in business.

 

[stillanerd]

I completely understand PAD's feelings and respect them. What my problem is- is that he refuses to see anyone's side other than his own. And worse, the mods at Comic Boards knuckled under simply to please him. Most of the posters there had no problem with the way the spoilers were released.

No kidding. They practically allowed themselves to be flogged by him simply because he's the writer of their favorite comic book character. Sure, I understood why he was upset and was sorry, but that doesn't mean a person has to make their nose brown for him.

And honestly, I applaud fans who come forward with such information and offer it- as Oz did- in a manner that allows those interested in spoilers to see it, and those who aren't to avoid them. It was hilarious to me over at CB the the ONE POSTER "Honey Bunny" continually blamed Oz for spoiling the book for him. He'd have to be functionally illiterate to have "accidently" read the spoilers. Plain and simple, he read them, then when PAD came out against it, he had to become PAD's lapdog, screaming bloody murder, hoping for a pat on the head.

Yeah, the whole "Wow, what great spoilers, but PAD hates them so I hate them too" defense he gave was fundamentally weak.

We fans have been getting burned by Marvel for a good while now with cheap gimmickry and false leads down blind alleys, two issue stories padded out to run 6 months- only to be given the most disappointing and anti-climactic finishes. We're shelling out increasingly higher prices for comic books that they are putting less and less effort into. PAD wants us to buy a pig in a polk, simply because it was his brainchild. It isn't fair, and there's no reason that those who don't mind sharing and receiving the info in advance should be barred from doing so. In sopme cases- it actually leads to greater sales.

Yes, it will be interesting to see what the actual sales on FNSM #7 are going to be and whether the spoilers played a factor.

And again- Big deal- PAD brought back yet another dead character. Is something like this really a surprise ending? Is it clever? Did he have to rack his brain to show us Uncle Ben?

If Spidey is placed in a real cliffhanger- his back against the wall, facing certain death, and PAD had come up with a clever means by which Spidey escaped and defeated the villain (Yeah.. when was the last time that happened?)- then that's an ending I could understand his being protective of. But not this one. Not worth all the balleyhoo. Because as you said- it's merely the beginning of a whole new story- those who give a damn will still be intrigued to learn just how and why Ben is there, so it means nothing if they already know that he's there.

Especially since Uncle Ben has made recent appearances in one form or another in other Spidey stories. Who knows, maybe this Uncle Ben is a holdover from House of M--at least, that way the real Uncle Ben is still dead.

But the that's the pattern at Marvel. They reject things that would help them generate goodwill and would rather have an antagonistic realtionship with those who are keeping them in business.

While at the same time sucker them in with bloated event after bloated event and superficial alterations to powers and costumes and call those fundamental changes.

 

[MaxCarnage]

Well, most of us hardly give them a reason to change their ways. ***** about Spider-Man's new costume and Uncle Ben's return and whatever else all you want; nothing changes until you stop buying their comics.

 

[Flonk]

Are you PAD's agent? You appear to be of one mind. Let's be clear. It doesn't matter what you or PAD think is silly. You don't get to make the decision for us how we read comic books or pass information about them, or discuss them.

You haven't read it yet, that's my point.

 

[Flonk]

yes Flonk, it's silly to criticize a story idea that has crap written all over it before we read it. It's not like people around here were ever proven right when they did it before.

Hum, :eek wait a min... Sins Past, Sins Remembered, The Other....it's all coming back to me. How could I forget these things


DAMN YOU WANDA, YOU DID IT AGAIN !!!!

I liked Sins Past. The Other was OK. Didn't read Sins Remembered. I thought it looked like crap (and stories written by JMS's assistants usualy are) so...wait for it....I DIDN'T READ IT. Life goes on, and I never even thought about the story again untill just now.

 

[Flonk]

Ron Zimmerman

He really got into it with fans over the bashing of his Get Kraven mini.

Now THAT was a piece of garbage. And I stupidly bought every single issue of that awful, awful book.

 

[stillanerd]

I liked Sins Past. The Other was OK. Didn't read Sins Remembered. I thought it looked like crap (and stories written by JMS's assistants usualy are) so...wait for it....I DIDN'T READ IT. Life goes on, and I never even thought about the story again untill just now.

You liked Sins Past...RELEASE THE HOUNDS!

Seriously, it was interesting until the whole "Gwen had pity sex with Norman" and Peter imagining Gwen and Norman doing the deed ruined everything.

GREEN GOBLIN: And I've got the pictures to prove it! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

 

[Flonk]

You liked Sins Past...RELEASE THE HOUNDS!

Seriously, it was interesting until the whole "Gwen had pity sex with Norman" and Peter imagining Gwen and Norman doing the deed ruined everything.

GREEN GOBLIN: And I've got the pictures to prove it! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

I thought it was decent. Not JMS's best, but not as bad as everyone made it out to be. (Though I was still holding out hope for hypno-gas, or something right untill the end) The only part I didn't like was how it took a pretty emotional and internal story and ended it with a standard, run of the mill Super Hero Fight.

 

[Dragon]

I liked Sins Past. The Other was OK. Didn't read Sins Remembered. I thought it looked like crap (and stories written by JMS's assistants usualy are) so...wait for it....I DIDN'T READ IT. Life goes on, and I never even thought about the story again untill just now.

You mean... You judged Sins Remembered without reading it?

So... what was your point again?

 

[Grim Goblin]

yeah Flonk, if your point was saying that if you judged the book was going to be crap and therefore didn't buy it, than read back to my first post because I already said I haven't bought a 616 spidey book in a long while. Good for you if you liked JMS' stuff but I don't. I don't need to "give the book a chance" before forming an opinion about it. I know what I like and that is not it.

I don't mind that people voice their displeasure of the books. It's the people who can tell in advance that a story will be crap, ***** about it, then go buy the book and ***** some more when they realize they've been had that irritates me. I can understand being caught off guard once, maybe twice. But dammit, they keep hoping Marvel will change its way while all they do is encouraging them not to do it by raising sales numbers.

I'm absolutely sure that Ben will not return in a permanent manner but it still pisses me off for reasons I already mentionned. The only way I could approve of this story is if the time travel angle is used to retcon all the mystic garbage that JMS introduced like a previous poster suggested. And even then, the means used to accomplish that would leave a bitter taste in my mouth. But at least the result would be worth it.

 

[shinlyle]

I liked Sins Past.

Well...there went your credibility.

 

[Doc Destruction]

Omfg, remind me never to read any of your posts, Flonk.

 

[Hoban]

I'm absolutely sure that Ben will not return in a permanent manner but it still pisses me off for reasons I already mentionned. The only way I could approve of this story is if the time travel angle is used to retcon all the mystic garbage that JMS introduced like a previous poster suggested. And even then, the means used to accomplish that would leave a bitter taste in my mouth. But at least the result would be worth it.

And you know they're not gonna do that because:

A) Marvel loves all this JMS crap, so they dare not change a thing.

and

B) If they were going to do it, they'd do it in their main title rather than a secondary title, don't you think?


So I doubt we'll get any relief in that aspect.

 

[Flonk]

You mean... You judged Sins Remembered without reading it?

So... what was your point again?

No. I didn't read it. And I didn't go on-line complaining about it, and talking about how much Marvel hates their fans for publishing it, ect. I just didn't read it. I could have been the next Watchmen, I don't know, I didn't read it.

 

[Flonk]

Omfg, remind me never to read any of your posts, Flonk.

But how can I do that if you won't read my posts?

 

[Dragon]

No. I didn't read it. And I didn't go on-line complaining about it, and talking about how much Marvel hates their fans for publishing it, ect. I just didn't read it. I could have been the next Watchmen, I don't know, I didn't read it.

So... Your point was to come to a discussion board and expect to convince the users not to discuss the subject of the board? You've got a hard sell on your hands.

Again, you hope to dictate how and what people discuss.

Tell me, do you have any other items on your list of comic book edicate?

Should we wear formal dress?

Should we read in a certain area of the house?

Is there a suggested way by which we should turn the pages?

Note to you and PAD. You guys need to remember these are comic books we're discussing. Not religious scripture.. Not important scientific discoveries.

Unclinch.

As for our belief that Marvel hates (or at least takes for granted) the fans- that isn't based on the reveal of one spoiler. That's based on years of policy, even statements by the staff. Certainly when Peter David goes on a message board, condescends to the fans and insults anyone who dares disagree with him, it would make for some tension and ill will.

 

[Doc Destruction]

Conversely, you have Dan Slott and Geoff Johns, who continuously say that they do it for the fans. It shows...and we appreciate it.

 

[Grim Goblin]

And you know they're not gonna do that because:

A) Marvel loves all this JMS crap, so they dare not change a thing.

and

B) If they were going to do it, they'd do it in their main title rather than a secondary title, don't you think?


So I doubt we'll get any relief in that aspect.

Yeah I know... . I'm just saying that it's would have been the only reason I could approve of the uncle Ben gimmick. Damn Marvel.

 

[Grim Goblin]

You know Flonk, maybe you need to read a story to be sure if it stinks or not, but others (myself included) can tell by a solicit if we're going to like the story or not because we know what kind of stories appeal to us.

I grant you that sometimes stories that could have been "meh" actually surprised me by being quite good. But when it comes to bad stories, there's no amount of great art and good execution in the world that is going to make me enjoy a bad plot. And when people get those kinds of rushed plotlines, poor characterization, and stupid gimmicks that come out of nowhere simply for shock value, month in and month out, they have every right to ***** about it.

 

[shinlyle]

You know Flonk, maybe you need to read a story to be sure if it stinks or not, but others (myself included) can tell by a solicit if we're going to like the story or not because we know what kind of stories appeal to us.

I grant you that sometimes stories that could have been "meh" actually surprised me by being quite good. But when it comes to bad stories, there's no amount of great art and good execution in the world that is going to make me enjoy a bad plot. And when people get those kinds of rushed plotlines, poor characterization, and stupid gimmicks that come out of nowhere simply for shock value, month in and month out, they have every right to ***** about it.

Well said.

It's like saying that you can't judge a movie just because everyone else, all the critics, and anyoen you've talked to, all hate it.

Look: If it looks like a turd, it smells like a turd, and it feels like a turd, then you shouldn't have to taste the damn thing to know it's a turd.

Simple as that.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

I completely understand PAD's feelings and respect them. What my problem is- is that he refuses to see anyone's side other than his own. And worse, the mods at Comic Boards knuckled under simply to please him. Most of the posters there had no problem with the way the spoilers were released.

And honestly, I applaud fans who come forward with such information and offer it- as Oz did- in a manner that allows those interested in spoilers to see it, and those who aren't to avoid them. It was hilarious to me over at CB the the ONE POSTER "Honey Bunny" continually blamed Oz for spoiling the book for him. He'd have to be functionally illiterate to have "accidently" read the spoilers. Plain and simple, he read them, then when PAD came out against it, he had to become PAD's lapdog, screaming bloody murder, hoping for a pat on the head.

We fans have been getting burned by Marvel for a good while now with cheap gimmickry and false leads down blind alleys, two issue stories padded out to run 6 months- only to be given the most disappointing and anti-climactic finishes. We're shelling out increasingly higher prices for comic books that they are putting less and less effort into. PAD wants us to buy a pig in a polk, simply because it was his brainchild. It isn't fair, and there's no reason that those who don't mind sharing and receiving the info in advance should be barred from doing so. In sopme cases- it actually leads to greater sales.

And again- Big deal- PAD brought back yet another dead character. Is something like this really a surprise ending? Is it clever? Did he have to rack his brain to show us Uncle Ben?

If Spidey is placed in a real cliffhanger- his back against the wall, facing certain death, and PAD had come up with a clever means by which Spidey escaped and defeated the villain (Yeah.. when was the last time that happened?)- then that's an ending I could understand his being protective of. But not this one. Not worth all the balleyhoo. Because as you said- it's merely the beginning of a whole new story- those who give a damn will still be intrigued to learn just how and why Ben is there, so it means nothing if they already know that he's there.

But the that's the pattern at Marvel. They reject things that would help them generate goodwill and would rather have an antagonistic realtionship with those who are keeping them in business.

Absolutely. Which is why i find myself slowly gravitating more and more towards DC Comics.

 

[Norman Osborn]

Absolutely. Which is why i find myself slowly gravitating more and more towards DC Comics.

Any in particular Cap?......I collected Action and Detective as a kid but sooooo much time has past I'm afraid of jumping back in....was considering picking up Infinte Crisis but felt there was far too much back history for me to understand what the hell's going on!

 

[CConn]

Any in particular Cap?......I collected Action and Detective as a kid but sooooo much time has past I'm afraid of jumping back in....was considering picking up Infinte Crisis but felt there was far too much back history for me to understand what the hell's going on!

Currently, there's two crossovers going on in Superman and Action and Batman and Detective. Both are quite excellent, IMO, and both are set up so that, you'll definitely have a lot of questions about things, but those questions will be supposedly answered in the books - no real back history needed.

I also thought the first issue of the new Blue Beetle series was quite good. He's a very Spider-Man-like chatacter, and again, not a lot of knowledge is required (other than, basically, the Crisis happened, and now everyone's trying to get back to normal).

And stuff like Flash, Justice League, etc. are all restarting in a couple of months, so they should be easy to get into as well.

 

[Norman Osborn]

And stuff like Flash, Justice League, etc. are all restarting in a couple of months, so they should be easy to get into as well.

Now I actually went looking for the JLA but found the JSA, something just called "Justice" and some other books.....just more confusion.....

...so will the JLA have a new mag out soon?

One other question.....can you explain to me what "OYL" is?...I know it's an acronym for One Year Later but it almost seems like every damn character is being rebooted in DC....and if that's the case, then maybe getting back into Action and Detective won't be such a chore?...

...thanks

edited to add: Just realized this has absolutely nothing to do with Spidey....sorry all.....so if CCONN or anyone could PM me the particulars I'd be much obliged

 

[CConn]

PM sent.