Fringe Thread - Part 2

[Wyrminarrd]

Nice final from character perspective, loved that we got to see the other side. However, I thought they completely butchered the time travel aspects of it, it so full of contradictions and logic fails that it was down right incredible they decided to go with this ending.

All I can say is that if shows want to have time travel in them then please think things through! Poorly thought out time travel is definitely my biggest sci-fi pet peeve.

 

[wiegeabo]

I think some people just get too hung up on continuity


Time travel works the way the writers want. it's not like it's real and can be judged against how it 'really' works.

Just like season 4, where enough of the continuity survived without Peter that things were mostly the same, and the differences weren't significant enough to completely change things, the Observer-free timeline will still be close enough to the previous Peter-free timeline for the differences not to matter in the long run.

As for September not saving Peter: since Walter knew that Peter needed to survive, and we've already seen a self-fulfilling paradox with the machine that bridged the universes, Walter just makes sure that someone goes back in time and distracts Walternate in September's place.

 

[The Sarge]

Did anyone else notice the bloody handprint on the wall had five fingers? I thought that was pure awesome.

 

[Monsieur Xavier]

Did anyone else notice the bloody handprint on the wall had five fingers? I thought that was pure awesome.

Yes and the team used almost all of the weird stuff seen in previous episode to kill the Observers.

 

[Wyrminarrd]

I think some people just get too hung up on continuity


Time travel works the way the writers want. it's not like it's real and can be judged against how it 'really' works.

Just like season 4, where enough of the continuity survived without Peter that things were mostly the same, and the differences weren't significant enough to completely change things, the Observer-free timeline will still be close enough to the previous Peter-free timeline for the differences not to matter in the long run.

As for September not saving Peter: since Walter knew that Peter needed to survive, and we've already seen a self-fulfilling paradox with the machine that bridged the universes, Walter just makes sure that someone goes back in time and distracts Walternate in September's place.

My biggest problem with the plan was that it involved travelling into the original future where the Observers never invaded... You'd think that the invasion would have changed how history progressed and that those scientists in Oslo would never be born

 

[chesslover]

One of the envelopes at the end reads "Thank you for your support!"

 

[TheWiseGuy487]

Did anyone else notice the bloody handprint on the wall had five fingers? I thought that was pure awesome.

What part of the show was that?

 

[The Sarge]

Olivia and Peter go into the building when all the fringe stuff is going off, at at one point they look at a bloody hand print on the wall- just like in the old intro(or symbols)

 

[Baramos]

It has six fingers, unless you are separating out thumbs in which case I guess you are right. Saying it "had five fingers" makes people not paying attention go, "Yeah...so?", haha.

EDIT: This show attempted to put more effort into explaining the time travel paradoxes than most others so it gets an A for effort in my book even if it still didn't make sense. It makes more sense than most others.

 

[Jordacar]

When the final season started, I was worried that it would seem like an extra, fan-fic-y story and that the season 4 finale would make for a much better end. But to my surprise, watching the final 3 episodes, I really started to feel like this was the real finale and that the show was ending in exactly the right place, even if the way it got there was a bit bumpy. IMO, a great finish.

 

[Destructus86]

Nice final from character perspective, loved that we got to see the other side. However, I thought they completely butchered the time travel aspects of it, it so full of contradictions and logic fails that it was down right incredible they decided to go with this ending.

All I can say is that if shows want to have time travel in them then please think things through! Poorly thought out time travel is definitely my biggest sci-fi pet peeve.

Considering no one knows how time travel (if it even exists) really works...I'm not sure we can say if they did time travel correctly or not

 

[Destructus86]

So...I know it won't happen. But I wish they would do a movie now.

 

[Monsieur Xavier]

I'm with Sawyer on this one. Lost and BSG both were just barely shy of perfect.

If you like mysticism more than science sure.
I liked BSG final ( and the show ) more than Lost which gave me a lot of scientific stuff ( Darma, the moving Island etc ) but ended mystic.
Fringe final was all science.

 

[Wyrminarrd]

Considering no one knows how time travel (if it even exists) really works...I'm not sure we can say if they did time travel correctly or not

It should still stand up to basic logic. In this case it failed completely, they even mention that the universe hates paradoxes and then have things only change from the invasion point when clearly everything that the Observers did should have been wiped out and not just the invasion.

Secondly they never explained how they could travel to a future that should no longer exist. I´d have liked at least a one minute explanation for why the time travel machine wouldn't just send Walter and the kid into the year 2164 ruled by the observers.

 

[Paradox1]

It should still stand up to basic logic. In this case it failed completely, they even mention that the universe hates paradoxes and then have things only change from the invasion point when clearly everything that the Observers did should have been wiped out and not just the invasion.

Secondly they never explained how they could travel to a future that should no longer exist. I´d have liked at least a one minute explanation for why the time travel machine wouldn't just send Walter and the kid into the year 2164 ruled by the observers.

You are forgetting rule number one of entertainment based time travel the future is never set constantly in flux while the past is set. The observers came from a possible future they were there in that time to secure the future they knew. They couldn't dominate the future that Walter and Michael went to because they needed that future to be as close as to what know or they wouldn't exist.

 

[Wyrminarrd]

You are forgetting rule number one of entertainment based time travel the future is never set constantly in flux while the past is set. The observers came from a possible future they were there in that time to secure the future they knew. They couldn't dominate the future that Walter and Michael went to because they needed that future to be as close as to what know or they wouldn't exist.

To me that just makes no sense. It would have made a lot more sense if there were multiple timelines and that the machine was designed to cross over into the original timeline. As far as I can remember no one in the show said it was going to do that, all they said was that it would go into the future.

I do get that this is entertainment and it's primary focus is to entertain rather then be logically sound. I just wish that they'd try to be logical or at least have the decency to come up with a techno babble explanation to explain things away.

 

[Spider-Fan83]

but, the Observers are from the future, they were created in the future, they would've been care in their actions in the past to not effect the future to the degree that it would change they own point of origin, other wise they would've wiped them self out of existence

 

[Wyrminarrd]

but, the Observers are from the future, they were created in the future, they would've been care in their actions in the past to not effect the future to the degree that it would change they own point of origin, other wise they would've wiped them self out of existence

This kind of logic fail is exactly what I´m complaining about.

A massive invasion that kills a large portion of the human population and changes the worlds atmosphere somehow doesn't affect history enough to change things? That's difficult to swallow. I could see that the observers would simply start making themselves at the appropriate time but that would still mean that Walter and the kid ended up in a future controlled by the observers.

The writers either chose to completely ignore this paradox or failed to think things through. Either way annoys me

 

[The Sarge]

It has six fingers, unless you are separating out thumbs in which case I guess you are right. Saying it "had five fingers" makes people not paying attention go, "Yeah...so?", haha.

Ha ha! True.

 

[Baramos]

It should still stand up to basic logic. In this case it failed completely, they even mention that the universe hates paradoxes and then have things only change from the invasion point when clearly everything that the Observers did should have been wiped out and not just the invasion.

Secondly they never explained how they could travel to a future that should no longer exist. I´d have liked at least a one minute explanation for why the time travel machine wouldn't just send Walter and the kid into the year 2164 ruled by the observers.

2164 was not ruled by the Observers. They didn't exist yet. 2164 was the year the Observers were first "thought of" when a scientist discovered that by rewiring the human brain at the cost of various negative emotions it could become massively more powerful and intelligent and quick. This led to more and more modifications where humans' various emotions were slowly wiped out and they gained more and more powers and abilities, eventually culminating in the race of Observers who could move through time and space fluidly and think at a pace and in a way humans from our time could never match.

Walter taking Michael to 2164 was so he could show the scientist who discovered this that the human brain could achieve such feats without losing its core emotional capabilities--and in fact that Michael is more intelligent and powerful than the Observers while being more emotionally deep than humans in our time. Altering the timeline in this way would prevent the Observers from ever existing. Instead it would be some other race of superpowered humans who presumably be wise enough not to ruin their world and so be forced to invade the past for resources and living space. They would also not be emotionless and cruel monsters.

This race of beings could still affect the timeline in the way the original Observers did (and in fact they would still look and probably act a lot like the Observers) by going back and observing the past, they could still screw it up by accident (as September did by distracting Walter from curing Peter 1) and then have to recorrect it to save the universes (as September did by saving Peter 2 from drowning in Reiden Lake), however, they would no longer invade in 2015.

 

[wiegeabo]

2164 was not ruled by the Observers. They didn't exist yet. 2164 was the year the Observers were first "thought of" when a scientist discovered that by rewiring the human brain at the cost of various negative emotions it could become massively more powerful and intelligent and quick. This led to more and more modifications where humans' various emotions were slowly wiped out and they gained more and more powers and abilities, eventually culminating in the race of Observers who could move through time and space fluidly and think at a pace and in a way humans from our time could never match.

Walter taking Michael to 2164 was so he could show the scientist who discovered this that the human brain could achieve such feats without losing its core emotional capabilities--and in fact that Michael is more intelligent and powerful than the Observers while being more emotionally deep than humans in our time. Altering the timeline in this way would prevent the Observers from ever existing. Instead it would be some other race of superpowered humans who presumably be wise enough not to ruin their world and so be forced to invade the past for resources and living space. They would also not be emotionless and cruel monsters.

What he's saying is the 2164 they traveled to would have had the Observer occupied history, not the original history that accidentally led to their creation.

 

[Jordacar]

What he's saying is the 2164 they traveled to would have had the Observer occupied history, not the original history that accidentally led to their creation.

"We can't! Because we would arrive at the future of this alternate timeline! Where the Observers are corrupt and powerful! And married to your mother...!"

 

[Baramos]

What he's saying is the 2164 they traveled to would have had the Observer occupied history, not the original history that accidentally led to their creation.

Well I think that was what Walter was talking about with how he was erased from history in 2015 at the exact moment the Observers originally invaded--this was to prevent the paradox. Like he actually traveled to 2164 in the new timeline in the year 2015 at the moment of the Observer invasion instead of doing it years later after being trapped in amber.

Maybe each time time travel is used it creates alternate timelines/universes (similar to Earth 1 and Earth 2 and then the new Earth 3 timeline which was Earth 1 but with Peter dying in Reiden lake)--presumably there is still one out there where the Observers invaded in 2015, it just "ends" at the moment Walter traveled to 2164 because it's existence became a paradox and so nature erased it. The Neo-Observers could presumably travel to it, and in fact the original Observers might still be able to move around in various universes from it.

I dunno, I agree it is confusing/paradoxical but it makes a better attempt at trying to explain it than basically any other show with time travel, even if it is merely to add confusing convolutions. The complaint about this is no different from any complaint someone would have about the Season 3 finale. Season 3 finale may not make any logical sense in real life but within the show it justifies the Season 5 finale.

EDIT: Actually the thing with the Observers is they can actually move around between universes as well--we see two of them invade the Earth 2 universe. So when they invaded Earth 1/3 universe it is perhaps not correct to say they came from the Earth 1/3 future--rather they could have come from any Earth-1/3-like future and invaded our Earth 1/3. Or something like that. Perhaps the gateway was not to go to 2164 in the Observer-occupied timeline but the original timeline--the Observers invading would have created another split, since the possibility is paradoxically already there for them NOT to have invaded since Walter achieves this.

ANOTHER EDIT: If you want a good joke about how circuitous a time travel plot can be and how hard it can be to do it well, see the lower-right hand corner of this XKCD comic for a movie narrative chart for the time travel movie Primer (which everyone should see just for how crazy it is):

http://xkcd.com/657/

 

[Ghostvirus]

I hadn't watched the show since the beginning of season 2. Was that dude with the 5 o'clock shadow & hair that wanted to take the boy in to the future before getting shot in the back. Was that the Observer in season 1 that ate that weird a** burger?

I really love how they used space & time to get the boy out of liberty. That was great!

 

[Sawyer]

Yeah, that was September.

Anyway...
[YT]wO2F0HZpndU[/YT]
Sobbing!