Civil War Giving Civil War another shot...

[Bert]

Right now I'm watching Civil War for the 4th time. I figure this place will be better than anywhere to discuss it as my Facebook feed is just a putrid mix of fall cookie recipes and today's political tensions. AKA no one there really cares about this movie. For the record, Captain America is my favorite superhero by a good stretch and Winter Soldier is definitely one of my all time favorite movies.

This brings me to why I am having such a difficult time with Civil War. Where to start? Winter Soldier set up this and Age of Ultron superbly. And it seems that in Civil War you can see remnants of what originally a satisfying Captain America 3 would've been. What we got instead was a hijacked script, movie by committee most interested in getting as much star power as possible to raise the box office gross. It looks like originally we were set up to have a Bucky redemption story with Cap, Bucky, and crew going out to stop Zemo and his crew of unstable Super Soldiers. Instead we got a relatively humorless look into how complicated, frustrating, and bureaucratic our modern world is.

I think I'm gonna cut this short cause I'm starting to frustrate myself. But wow, it seems like this movie could've been more uplifting, less mired in the complexity of our modern society, and most importantly an actual story about the hero this movie was supposedly about. If all future movies are just going to be solo movies in name only, I'll be off this MCU train ride sooner rather than later.

Thanks!

 

[TeeKay]

Right now I'm watching Civil War for the 4th time. I figure this place will be better than anywhere to discuss it as my Facebook feed is just a putrid mix of fall cookie recipes and today's political tensions. AKA no one there really cares about this movie. For the record, Captain America is my favorite superhero by a good stretch and Winter Soldier is definitely one of my all time favorite movies.

This brings me to why I am having such a difficult time with Civil War. Where to start? Winter Soldier set up this and Age of Ultron superbly. And it seems that in Civil War you can see remnants of what originally a satisfying Captain America 3 would've been. What we got instead was a hijacked script, movie by committee most interested in getting as much star power as possible to raise the box office gross. It looks like originally we were set up to have a Bucky redemption story with Cap, Bucky, and crew going out to stop Zemo and his crew of unstable Super Soldiers. Instead we got a relatively humorless look into how complicated, frustrating, and bureaucratic our modern world is.

I think I'm gonna cut this short cause I'm starting to frustrate myself. But wow, it seems like this movie could've been more uplifting, less mired in the complexity of our modern society, and most importantly an actual story about the hero this movie was supposedly about. If all future movies are just going to be solo movies in name only, I'll be off this MCU train ride sooner rather than later.

Thanks!

Nope.

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/08/2...e?xid=entertainment-weekly_socialflow_twitter

"It was not a given that we were even going to do Civil War when we were talking about the next movie after Winter Soldier. So there was a period of time when we explored possibilities for Cap stories that did not include it,” Joe Russo says. “We spent a few weeks doing that, although Civil War came up fairly early in the process and once that happened it took over our brains and we ran hard at it... There was a period where we did discuss a third act that revolved around the Madbomb from Cap mythology,” Anthony Russo said. “It didn’t have anything to do with Civil War, and if we couldn’t get Downey – in the very, very early conversations before we nailed him – somebody pitched the idea of a third-act that revolved around the Madbomb, which makes people crazy. It almost like zombifies them – but not literally.” .

The 6 Super soldiers in CW is a red herring. The Russos subverted expectations for these kind of films. Heroes fight each other and realise there is bigger forces at play so they team up and go fight the real villain. It almost seemed that way in CW, when Bucky told Cap about those super soldiers in Siberia. It'd have been cliche imo if the 3rd act revolved Cap and co taking on super soldiers.

No one knew what the story for Cap 3 until the Russos revealed it in that EW interview. I disagree though. CW was far from humourless. There was levity thought out the whole film. Was it more serious than most MCU films? Yes but it wasn't dour and humourless.

 

[Bert]

Nope.

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/08/2...e?xid=entertainment-weekly_socialflow_twitter




The 6 Super soldiers in CW is a red herring. The Russos subverted expectations for these kind of films. Heroes fight each other and realise there is bigger forces at play so they team up and go fight the real villain. It almost seemed that way in CW, when Bucky told Cap about those super soldiers in Siberia. It'd have been cliche imo if the 3rd act revolved Cap and co taking on super soldiers.

No one knew what the story for Cap 3 until the Russos revealed it in that EW interview. I disagree though. CW was far from humourless. There was levity thought out the whole film. Was it more serious than most MCU films? Yes but it wasn't dour and humourless.

I dunno man, it almost seems like the studio is just putting a happy story out saying behind the scenes this was the plan all along. I dunno so much, for a Cap movie they really shafted Cap for screentime, etc. aside from that I'm slowly learning to like the movie it definitely isn't coming easy like it was for Winter Soldier. Just a major gripe is Vision, yuck big invincible personality free authoritarian robot, I do not like that one bit, he can kiss my ass.

 

[Jaxon]

I dunno man, it almost seems like the studio is just putting a happy story out saying behind the scenes this was the plan all along. I dunno so much, for a Cap movie they really shafted Cap for screentime, etc. aside from that I'm slowly learning to like the movie it definitely isn't coming easy like it was for Winter Soldier. Just a major gripe is Vision, yuck big invincible personality free authoritarian robot, I do not like that one bit, he can kiss my ass.

You're spot on about what drove the movie. They clearly see RDJ as the billion dollar box office ticket and then jammed in Black Panther and Spiderman to set up future cash grabs in the MCU.
What should have been a movie about Cap having to choose between his love of Bucky and his core values that ended in him having to give up (or even kill) Bucky to "do what is right", or even the opposite depending on how they want Cap to be going forward, we see a mess of a movie that just goes off the rails each subsequent scene.
So what you get is no arc for Cap, he simply starts off as Bucky's friend, and ends as Bucky's friend with no conflicting real world choices. The Avengers operate as it's own private team with backing at the start, and all that happens is that Tony isn't part of the Avengers at the end. Oh wait, he was already off doing his own thing at the start anyway. So all that happens is that the Avengers lose Tony's funding, but not really, because Cap writes him a letter and now Panther funds them.
It's a movie where nothing happens.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

Meh... I didn't love Avengers 2.5

Cap got lost in the shuffle of his own movie. I left that more impressed with Spider-Man and Black Panther than anything. I didn't give two ****s about Don Cheadle breaking his legs.

The praise was spite. The Winter Soldier is still the best Cap movie and arguably best MCU movie.

 

[Zarex]

You're spot on about what drove the movie. They clearly see RDJ as the billion dollar box office ticket and then jammed in Black Panther and Spiderman to set up future cash grabs in the MCU.
What should have been a movie about Cap having to choose between his love of Bucky and his core values that ended in him having to give up (or even kill) Bucky to "do what is right", or even the opposite depending on how they want Cap to be going forward, we see a mess of a movie that just goes off the rails each subsequent scene.
So what you get is no arc for Cap, he simply starts off as Bucky's friend, and ends as Bucky's friend with no conflicting real world choices. The Avengers operate as it's own private team with backing at the start, and all that happens is that Tony isn't part of the Avengers at the end. Oh wait, he was already off doing his own thing at the start anyway. So all that happens is that the Avengers lose Tony's funding, but not really, because Cap writes him a letter and now Panther funds them.
It's a movie where nothing happens.

The Avengers are broken up, Bucky's on ice, Steve Rogers is no longer Captain America, TChalla has put his country at odds with the signers of the Sokovia Accords, Vision and Tony are emotional messes, Clint and Scott are fugitives from the law separated from their families, Sam and Wanda are on the run as well and Rhodey is crippled. Other than that, it's just the same old same old.

 

[Bert]

The Avengers are broken up, Bucky's on ice, Steve Rogers is no longer Captain America, TChalla has put his country at odds with the signers of the Sokovia Accords, Vision and Tony are emotional messes, Clint and Scott are fugitives from the law separated from their families, Sam and Wanda are on the run as well and Rhodey is crippled. Other than that, it's just the same old same old.

Yeah I dunno if I'd say everything is the same at the end of the movie, I'd just say I don't really like where the movie went. Cap took a backseat in his own movie to Iron Man. I haven't seen the numbers but often times on these boards they will time the amount of screentime each character gets.... There's gotta be more Iron Man than Cap in this, or at the least its be very close.


Then with a bunch of shared time setting up Black Panther and Spider-Man, along with having everyone minus Hulk and Thor and you've got an overstuffed movie with confusion as to who the main character is. Like Rhodey said at the end "This is a bad beat" and on the other hand I'm also not sure why Rhodey survived, he's the same as Iron Man and it seemed like they were setting up his passing which would added a little emotional gravity, but I guess in subsequent movies we get more War Machine?

Cap is no longer Captain America, well, until next time. Until then he'll just be Steve Rogers, guy who really loves America but at the moment not a Captain.

Now I gotta hope they do a Cap 4 for my real Cap closeout. Complete with them fleshing out the Sharon Carter romance and I could really use a WW 2 flashback or two.

 

[TeeKay]

The Avengers are broken up, Bucky's on ice, Steve Rogers is no longer Captain America, TChalla has put his country at odds with the signers of the Sokovia Accords, Vision and Tony are emotional messes, Clint and Scott are fugitives from the law separated from their families, Sam and Wanda are on the run as well and Rhodey is crippled. Other than that, it's just the same old same old.

The entire weight of the film turns on the question of whether or not the characters’ central relationships (familial, friendly, romantic or otherwise) will survive what amounts to an untenable ideological schism. An emotional fallout of this magnitude isnt resolved in one film. Like any schism between family or friends, it will linger for quite some time.

There's plenty of fallout that still has to be resolved:

Stark has lost everything (his friends, the Avengers, his cozy government relationship, and Pepper) by trying to keep everything – and while he finally has closure about his parents, well… be careful what you wish for.

– Steve and Tony have effectively traded attitudes without trading ideologies: At the start Tony is arguing reason and Steve is being idealistic, while at the end Steve is pleading reason while Tony’s position is one of pure vengeance, stripped of logic.

– Stark openly tried to murder Bucky, which is going to be difficult to walk from back no matter how many olive branch letters and burner-phones Captain America wants to send him.

– Cap basically condemns himself to life on the run, with the only person left on Earth he can relate to as Steve Rogers rather than Captain America once again tucked-away and frozen, after Steve has spent five films looking for family and a sense of belonging.

– The remaining Avengers are now fugitives from justice, which you have to imagine is going to be especially difficult for Hawkeye and Ant-Man, both of whom have families.

To build to an ending where the narrative shrinks down from epic-scale adventuring to a grim, personal grudge match is a brave risk to take in a blockbuster era where the world is always expected to be on the verge of destruction. To do so through a fight scene where both everything and nothing are accomplished in tandem while two beloved icons of the genre beat each other senseless until neither of them are able to stagger away “clean” in the eyes of the audience but still send that audience home eager to see what happens next is Plain exciting and just impressive imo.

 

[Chesterfield]

Looks like Teekay and I watched the same film.

 

[Bert]

Looks like Teekay and I watched the same film.

You mean you both saw the Captain America movie that didn't feature hardly any Captain America?

 

[See Cap Run]

You mean you both saw the Captain America movie that didn't feature hardly any Captain America?

Cap was the protagonist and lead character in the film.

 

[Xrated48]

The entire weight of the film turns on the question of whether or not the characters’ central relationships (familial, friendly, romantic or otherwise) will survive what amounts to an untenable ideological schism. An emotional fallout of this magnitude isnt resolved in one film. Like any schism between family or friends, it will linger for quite some time.

There's plenty of fallout that still has to be resolved:

Stark has lost everything (his friends, the Avengers, his cozy government relationship, and Pepper) by trying to keep everything – and while he finally has closure about his parents, well… be careful what you wish for.

– Steve and Tony have effectively traded attitudes without trading ideologies: At the start Tony is arguing reason and Steve is being idealistic, while at the end Steve is pleading reason while Tony’s position is one of pure vengeance, stripped of logic.

– Stark openly tried to murder Bucky, which is going to be difficult to walk from back no matter how many olive branch letters and burner-phones Captain America wants to send him.

– Cap basically condemns himself to life on the run, with the only person left on Earth he can relate to as Steve Rogers rather than Captain America once again tucked-away and frozen, after Steve has spent five films looking for family and a sense of belonging.

– The remaining Avengers are now fugitives from justice, which you have to imagine is going to be especially difficult for Hawkeye and Ant-Man, both of whom have families.

To build to an ending where the narrative shrinks down from epic-scale adventuring to a grim, personal grudge match is a brave risk to take in a blockbuster era where the world is always expected to be on the verge of destruction. To do so through a fight scene where both everything and nothing are accomplished in tandem while two beloved icons of the genre beat each other senseless until neither of them are able to stagger away “clean” in the eyes of the audience but still send that audience home eager to see what happens next is Plain exciting and just impressive imo.

 

[AlluAllu]

I too would have preferred a true solo Cap film. Steve Rogers is my favorite MCU character and I was disappointed to see so little of him. According to link below, he did have the most screentime, but he had a ton of action scenes and not enough dramatic scenes.

But, what I ended up getting was a really well done movie about Cap having to against the world and half of his friends to do what he believes is right. Civil War is an emotional rollercoaster and does such a good job with all the characters that it is my favorite MCU film, despite not being what I wanted.


https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/4q7bi7/civil_war_characters_ranked_by_screen_time/

 

[Chesterfield]

You mean you both saw the Captain America movie that didn't feature hardly any Captain America?

Nope. I mean the film you clearly haven't seen.

 

[Bert]

Nope. I mean the film you clearly haven't seen.

Yeah, clearly... Cause I didn't buy it or anything. Yeah clearly didn't see that one

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Yeah, clearly... Cause I didn't buy it or anything. Yeah clearly didn't see that one

You're never going to like the movie if you keep holding onto the movie you wanted instead of what we got (which was pretty dang good.)

 

[Zarex]

I remember having similar feelings regarding "The Dark Knight" Though I later came to appreciate Nolan's work, I was initially disappointed that we didn't get a more upbeat comic book film as a follow up to Batman Begins. I've come to realize it's best to lay your expectations at the door and appreciate the artists that expand the genre.

 

[Bert]

You're never going to like the movie if you keep holding onto the movie you wanted instead of what we got (which was pretty dang good.)

I hear ya, it's why I'm working on it. I've seen this movie a few times and there's plenty of stuff to like. A lot of people like it for its complexity etc. I have gripes for the aforementioned reasons. We got a movie that was somehow complex and mature while still being able to pull off the "I wanna see all my action figures in the toy box fighting each other." I wish they could've done a little more to clearly make it a Cap movie, or just gone with a clunky Cap vs Iron Man Civil War title

 

[Doctor Octopus]

The praise was spite.

Lol what.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

I understand the complaint from a Captain America fan looking for a solo film. But, if you were to pick one protagonist, it would be Cap (probably by a hair). And as the Reddit link points out, four of the top five character screen times belong to Captain America: The Winter Soldier characters.

Would you prefer instead of calling it Captain America: Civil War, they called it Avengers: Civil War and got the same exact movie?

Of course, that would probably upset some Thor and Hulk fans.

 

[Flint Marko]

You mean you both saw the Captain America movie that didn't feature hardly any Captain America?

This is incorrect. Dislike the movie all you want but don't make up reasons why.

 

[Bert]

This is incorrect. Dislike the movie all you want but don't make up reasons why.

It's not a made up reason. God, this is like we're looking at that picture some see as white and others see as blue. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! For a Captain America movie it did not feature much of our titular character. It featured at least as much Iron Man who is not the titular character. Yes, actually it is a titling issue for me I'd be happy if this film were titled Avengers:Civil War. Then I'd still hold out for an awesome Cap 3. Instead I got another Avengers movie and Cap probably won't get a solo movie. So for this, I feel like Cap is short changed on his last time out. I hope Ragnarok doesn't turn out to be a Hulk movie where Thor shows up once in a while, that'll kinda be upsetting for me too

 

[Flint Marko]

It's not a made up reason. God, this is like we're looking at that picture some see as white and others see as blue. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! For a Captain America movie it did not feature much of our titular character. It featured at least as much Iron Man who is not the titular character. Yes, actually it is a titling issue for me I'd be happy if this film were titled Avengers:Civil War. Then I'd still hold out for an awesome Cap 3. Instead I got another Avengers movie and Cap probably won't get a solo movie. So for this, I feel like Cap is short changed on his last time out. I hope Ragnarok doesn't turn out to be a Hulk movie where Thor shows up once in a while, that'll kinda be upsetting for me too

You claimed the movie "hardly featured any Captain America". That is objectively false, and can be disproven by watching the movie. Captain America is the main character and has more screen time than anyone else. Iron Man doesn't even suit up until the airport sequence. You'd have just as much luck proving that 2 + 2 = 5.

A better way to word your argument would be that the movie didn't feature Captain America in the capacity you would have liked, or didn't have as much of him as you'd prefer. That's another story entirely as opposed to saying the movie "hardly featured him", which is hyperbolic and incorrect.

 

[OcStat]

Captain America could be considered responsible for the incident that set off the accords, the conflict between the Avengers regarding the accords is a spark set off by Steve, and Winter Soldier gets more to do here than he did in the last movie... I never thought of Civil War as an Avengers movie.

 

[King23DC]

You're spot on about what drove the movie. They clearly see RDJ as the billion dollar box office ticket and then jammed in Black Panther and Spiderman to set up future cash grabs in the MCU.
What should have been a movie about Cap having to choose between his love of Bucky and his core values that ended in him having to give up (or even kill) Bucky to "do what is right", or even the opposite depending on how they want Cap to be going forward, we see a mess of a movie that just goes off the rails each subsequent scene.
So what you get is no arc for Cap, he simply starts off as Bucky's friend, and ends as Bucky's friend with no conflicting real world choices. The Avengers operate as it's own private team with backing at the start, and all that happens is that Tony isn't part of the Avengers at the end. Oh wait, he was already off doing his own thing at the start anyway. So all that happens is that the Avengers lose Tony's funding, but not really, because Cap writes him a letter and now Panther funds them.
It's a movie where nothing happens.

Finally someone smart enough who noticed. The movie ends where it started.

Not to mention the contrived and nonsensical motivations from the two main characters to even kick start the stupid plot.

At least the motivations for Batman taking on Superman made sense. They didn't know each other.

Tony all of a sudden is this massive company man, or government man. When in the 5x movies he's in previously he's a massive, cool, rebellious maverick. And if he's truly about taking responsibility, he'd have had himself locked up before the plot even starts considering he's the one who egotisticallg creates Ultron.

It's a stupid movie that morons ate up because well ... it's Marvel and it's got some jokes.

RDJ once again steals the show. Him, Spider-Man and Paul Rudd are the only scenes worth watching. The plot is stupid. The drama is so forced. Black Panther is a crappy actor with a terrible accent, and hilariously bad facial expressions.

All the characters besides Stark, Steve, and Bucky are irrelevant. Cash grabs. Commercials for future movies. Even if the two, Paul Rudd and Spider-Man are totally entertaining.

Captain America, and Chris Evan's boring ass takes an EXTREME back seat in his own movie, with his name on the title.



PS, no one thinks the Cap and Bucky "love" is more than a little homoerotic in subtext? My gf kept laughing about it the entire time. Best dude friends don't act that gay. Nor do the other friends (Falcon) act so salty about it. That's a passive aggressive woman type behavior.