Has anyone ever lost a dispute with a buyer on ebay when you have been in the right?

[Dark Raven]

Like the title says: Has anyone ever lost a dispute when you have been in the right (ie you have genuinely sent an item but the buyer demands a refund)?

To cut a long story short, an item I sold to a buyer was sent out about 10 days ago - sent internationally but without tracking because that option isn't available from the UK, unlike with USPS etc. When the auction ended (which was back in early to mid May) the buyer took 3 weeks or more to pay, even after repeated promises and apologies, and didn't always respond to communication.

He sent me a message asking where his item was only over a week ago (i hadn't immediately sent it out but waited about a week because I was busy and also because he wasn't so quick to pay). However I did send it out as soon as he messaged me. Now he has opened a dispute with ebay and is demanding a full refund saying he has never received the item.

I have 100% feedback while he has lots of negative feedback. Now I don't know whether the item has genuinely been lost in the mail or whether it's still being delivered and he needs to wait longer but certainly 10 days isn't a reasonable time. I've never had complaints before of this nature, and even if I did, if it were something I could replace easily, then I would send a replacement, but in this case I can't since it is a single item.

The result of the dispute hasn't been decided yet and I haven't actually lost anything at this point, but i am concerned. If he were to receive the refund and the case were to go in his favour, that would be grossly unfair to me as I've already sent the item and I would lose any payment for that too.

I know ebay seems to ask in these disputes for evidence of tracking, which I wouldn't be able to provide, but I do have a certificate of posting, which may not be much, but is at least something. However, if I were to lose simply because of lack of evidence while the buyer is allowed to get both the item and his refund because he is fraudulent, then that would be a complete injustice.

Also, what if the buyer simply hasn't given a reasonable time but is too quick to open the dispute, and the item subsequently arrives after he is awarded the refund? I'm sure he wouldn't come clean and say that the item has arrived and that he wants to refund the refund. So what course of action is there for me?

Any ideas? Or what are your experiences of this sort of thing? Thanks.

 

[Ponyboy]

Unfortunately it is your responsibility, as the seller, to get the item the buyer paid for to the buyer. Ebay will side with the bidder 95% of the time in these cases.

I don't know how you cannot have international tracking in the UK... we have it here in New Zealand and everybody knows were 10 years behind the rest of the world.

 

[Dark Raven]

Unfortunately it is your responsibility, as the seller, to get the item the buyer paid for to the buyer. Ebay will side with the bidder 95% of the time in these cases.

I don't know how you cannot have international tracking in the UK... we have it here in New Zealand and everybody knows were 10 years behind the rest of the world.

So basically what you're saying is that if you don't use tracking (which not everyone always does anyway) then a buyer can carry out fraudulent activity by abusing the ebay buyer protection system and win?

The buyer seemed highly reluctant to pay in the first place, and now he both gets the item for free and gets his refund?

 

[Ponyboy]

Here's the thing. Buyer pays for something. There's proof when they pay (typically)... Paypal, etc. When a seller ships something... if he has no tracking, he has no proof. It's not like eBay can send coppers to the buyers house and check to see if he really received it.

Frankly, I would never sell anything on eBay without getting tracking. Since you didn't answer my earlier question about international tracking, I'm assuming that you're likely incorrect in your statement. If you shipped to a country that the UK doesn't track to, I suggest amending your profile and not shipping to those countries anymore.

 

[PemLam]

I sell a ton of stuff on Ebay and in this case I believe you're doomed. Without tracking, Ebay will almost certainly side with the buyer and have you take up any "lost" or "undelivered" items with the post office (which is a lost cause).

Many sellers are are to the point of not doing business with Ebay because they are so slanted toward the buyer now. Ebay has even made it to where you can only leave positive feedback for buyers...negative or even neutral isn't even an option anymore.

Sorry D.R., but in this case I think you're going to be left hanging.

 

[LegendaryCaleb]

i avoid shipping internationally because of this...its way too risky...you might be stuck on this one

 

[Ponyboy]

i avoid shipping internationally because of this...its way too risky...

Just get tracking. I honestly don't believe that option isn't available to you with the plethora of mail carriers that are out there. I ship to Canada, Spain, France, and the U.S. quite often as I've got family all over. I never have issues, if I track it.

 

[Dark Raven]

Here's the thing. Buyer pays for something. There's proof when they pay (typically)... Paypal, etc. When a seller ships something... if he has no tracking, he has no proof. It's not like eBay can send coppers to the buyers house and check to see if he really received it.

Frankly, I would never sell anything on eBay without getting tracking. Since you didn't answer my earlier question about international tracking, I'm assuming that you're likely incorrect in your statement. If you shipped to a country that the UK doesn't track to, I suggest amending your profile and not shipping to those countries anymore.

I didn't realise you had asked a question. You just made a statement "I don't know how in the world... etc." Tracking isn't normally an option on standard Royal Mail. There may possibly be tracking if you picked some more expensive option (I haven't looked into that), but I've shipped hundreds of items before without tracking and I've never had a problem. The only time I do now is when there's a buyer who was reluctant to pay in the first place and whom I had to pursue, and now seems to want to defraud me.

As for proof, well I do have some form of proof that it was sent, which is the certifcate of posting, which is a document signed and date stamped by the post office with the buyer's address.

I also phoned ebay and they said that they will take all these things into consideration, my previous correspondence with the buyer, the fact that I called in to voice my concern, the document I have, and the fact that it is international shipping etc. They said that the buyer has 45 days in which to escalate the claim/ file a dispute from the end of auction, but the thing is that the buyer has drastically reduced his own time limit by taking so long to pay.

It's not like the buyer has been waiting months. It is only over a week, and yet he has filed a dispute as his first course of action without even contacting me. Ebay said that it may possibly work out that they would refund the buyer the money but not necessarily come out of my funds. I hope this is the case, although I would prefer that the buyer simply receives the item (if he hasn't already) and drops the dispute. But if he is dishonest in the first place, then he's not likely to do that since he would've wanted to have his cake and eat it.

 

[Ponyboy]

I didn't realise you had asked a question. You just made a statement "I don't know how in the world... etc."

As for proof, well I do have some form of proof that it was sent, which is the certifcate of posting, which is a document signed and date stamped by the post office with the buyer's address.
.

Sorry about that, I thought I formed it as a question. My bad.

Well the proof you need is that the buyer received the item, not that you sent it. That still doesn't put you in the clear.

 

[chaseter]

I have sold some shizz on ebay and I didn't use tracking and the guy said he never received it and wanted his money back. It was only like $50 but still. Ebay sided with him because I didn't provide proof of delivery, ie tracking. I learned my lesson that day...ALWAYS pay the extra dollar or whatever it is to get delivery confirmation.

 

[Dark Raven]

So that means that the next time I don't want to have to pay for something on ebay, all I need to do is wait for some poor unsuspecting seller (of which there are hundreds) to not use tracking and then I can make my move and claim it was never delivered and demand a full refund. Great. I'll remember that for future reference.

 

[chaseter]

Yes you can. You can't do it all the time because ebay will catch on to you but if you do it once, you will likely win if they cannot prove otherwise.

It's the seller's responsibility to prove that the item that was paid for did indeed arrive. There is nothing to roll your eyes about. It's your responsibility to prove that. If you take this case to court for example, where is your proof? You don't have any. You don't have any proof that your the item that someone paid you for arrived to their possession. Therefore, they are entitled to a refund.

You seem to be living under the false assumption that everyone is as trustful as you are. I made that mistake too...as I explained. Never again. I have sold an item for $9000 on ebay. You bet your ass I got that crap a tracking number. I make about $5-10k a year on ebay as a side job. Let me tell you that tracking is IMPORTANT.

 

[terry78]

Basically if you sell anything online the burden of proof is always on you. Unfortunately people that buy stuff can pull scams by claiming you never did something, so it does suck in that sense. Them's be the risks, I've fallen prey to it myself.

 

[Hotwire]

A few more pieces of good advice regarding eBay sales.
In your listing, state clearly that bidders without a certain amount of positive feedback, can't bid. If the do, delete their bid.

Set clear guidelines for how soon they are required to pay, and enforce them.

Require international bidders to contact you before bidding. If thy don't, remove their bid.

Finally, if a bidder does con you, block them from ever bidding again, and let others know about it.

 

[Dark Raven]

Yes you can. You can't do it all the time because ebay will catch on to you but if you do it once, you will likely win if they cannot prove otherwise.

It's the seller's responsibility to prove that the item that was paid for did indeed arrive. There is nothing to roll your eyes about. It's your responsibility to prove that. If you take this case to court for example, where is your proof? You don't have any. You don't have any proof that your the item that someone paid you for arrived to their possession. Therefore, they are entitled to a refund.

You seem to be living under the false assumption that everyone is as trustful as you are. I made that mistake too...as I explained. Never again. I have sold an item for $9000 on ebay. You bet your ass I got that crap a tracking number. I make about $5-10k a year on ebay as a side job. Let me tell you that tracking is IMPORTANT.

Well there is, because I said "great, I'll remember that for future reference," and without the eye rolling smiley people could believe that maybe I have decided I'll get back on someone by doing that because ebay allows (and practically facilitates) that kind of behaviour.

I have noticed (since the item was sent) that the buyer seems to have had a pattern of negative feedback for dishonest behaviour, either as a seller or buyer (although I don't know if he has had anything for something of this nature). My feedback is almost perfect, and if ever there has been any kind of complaint I have always sent out a replacement where I could. In this case however, that cannot be done as I don't have multiple items of the same thing.

Ebay doesn't specify that items HAVE to be sent using tracking. Even if there were tracking and the item didn't arrive, wouldn't that (if everything is always in the buyer's favour) mean that the responsibility still effectively falls with me even though it has been sent out? It's not as if he's going to take it up with the post office. A vast number of correspondence and items are sent without tracking in the UK. In any event, even if there is tracking and the item hasn't arrived yet, the buyer can still start a dispute and escalate a claim. If he wins and the item subsequently arrives, it's not as if he's going to admit his mistake and pay for the item again if he has been refunded. 10 days (which it hasn't even been 10 business days since 4 of those included weekends) isn't exactly a reasonable time to wait for an item that ships internationally.

As mentioned, I have kept the proof of postage. I don't know how representative of ebay the words are of the person I spoke to in customer services this morning, but he seemed to suggest that it could count for something and that they will review all the factors in the case not just the tracking.

 

[Duke]

I don't ship internationally for this same reason & not very reliable tracking. I also pay the extra buck for tracking, that way I have proof of item sent & also received. You should protect yourself further by setting guidelines in your auctions next time, such as bidders with x amount of negative bids are'nt welcomed etc. Good luck with your dispute.

 

[Spidey220987]

Yeah. Years ago, I paid for a Jessie the Cowgirl doll (I'm a huge Toy Story fan lol), and I even paid postal insurance as the parcel was coming from America, and when I didn't get it, I told the seller. She said it's shipped and it's arrived.

I asked her how she knew, & she said she has the tracking number.
So when I ASKED for the tracking number, all I got was "-----------" - seriously!
So I opened a dispute with PayPal, and got nadda, and the dispute was closed because we couldn't resolve it in the time-frame (think it was 20 days, I'm not too sure, but it was like 3 or 4 years ago). I still remember her name too lol

I was the first person to give her negative feedback.
After that, she got like 10 - 20 negative feedbacks in a row from other buyers, I'm not lying. They were all saying things like "don't trust, never received item"
In my 6 years of eBaying, that is the only negative feedback I've had to give LOL!

 

[Spidey220987]

Here's the thing. Buyer pays for something. There's proof when they pay (typically)... Paypal, etc. When a seller ships something... if he has no tracking, he has no proof. It's not like eBay can send coppers to the buyers house and check to see if he really received it.

Frankly, I would never sell anything on eBay without getting tracking. Since you didn't answer my earlier question about international tracking, I'm assuming that you're likely incorrect in your statement. If you shipped to a country that the UK doesn't track to, I suggest amending your profile and not shipping to those countries anymore.

THIS!
I only brought from the seller because she had (at the time) 100% feedback, AND offered tracking as part of the deal.

But when I asked for the tracking number, there wasn't one.
Like I said before, all she gave me was "----------"

 

[Dark Raven]

I don't know if the buyer is even going to respond now that I've responded to the dispute. He barely responded before or if he did, it could take him up to a week to do so. He even admitted before (when I was pursuing payment) that he must be the worst customer I've ever had, and it seems he was right. Slow to pay, quick to start a dispute when the item hasn't arrived within the given time frame. What's more frustrating is that he will probably give me negative feedback when he has been the offending party all along.

 

[Hotwire]

I don't know if the buyer is even going to respond now that I've responded to the dispute. He barely responded before or if he did, it could take him up to a week to do so. He even admitted before (when I was pursuing payment) that he must be the worst customer I've ever had, and it seems he was right. Slow to pay, quick to start a dispute when the item hasn't arrived within the given time frame. What's more frustrating is that he will probably give me negative feedback when he has been the offending party all along.

Save those emails and pass them along to eBay. What country is this guy in?

 

[Dark Raven]

Save those emails and pass them along to eBay. What country is this guy in?

The US. I'm in the UK. The guy I spoke to from ebay this morning said that he's looked through our conversations and that will be taken into account, as well as the fact that I've phoned in with my concern, and of course the proof of posting which I have. The ebay guy seemed fairly sympathetic to my concern, but I don't know how much influence he would have in the whole matter.

 

[chaseter]

I bought something from Germany and you only have I think 30 days to file a paypal claim. Well I filed it on like the last day possible to give the dude the most time in the world and the dude never responded to any of my paypal emails and he never confirmed delivery so I got my money back. The package arrived no joke 90 days after I bought it but it had been opened and was damaged.

That may not have been his fault as customs may have ****ed it up but I paid $600 for it and there was no way I was going to chance losing $600 and I wasn't going to give him his money back for a damaged item and I damn sure wasn't going to pay $40 to ship it back to him.

Come to find out, there was a guy named Christian (the same name of the guy I bought this from) from the same exact town that had scammed a bunch of people on a forum I post at selling the same merchandise. I guess he finally balled up and shipped my item but I had filed a claim so I won.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I bought something from Germany and you only have I think 30 days to file a paypal claim. Well I filed it on like the last day possible to give the dude the most time in the world and the dude never responded to any of my paypal emails and he never confirmed delivery so I got my money back. The package arrived no joke 90 days after I bought it but it had been opened and was damaged.

That may not have been his fault as customs may have ****ed it up but I paid $600 for it and there was no way I was going to chance losing $600 and I wasn't going to give him his money back for a damaged item and I damn sure wasn't going to pay $40 to ship it back to him.

Come to find out, there was a guy named Christian (the same name of the guy I bought this from) from the same exact town that had scammed a bunch of people on a forum I post at selling the same merchandise. I guess he finally balled up and shipped my item but I had filed a claim so I won.

That's what I call WINNING!!!

 

[mrvlknight21]

I have 100% feedback while he has lots of negative feedback. Now I don't know whether the item has genuinely been lost in the mail or whether it's still being delivered and he needs to wait longer but certainly 10 days isn't a reasonable time. I've never had complaints before of this nature, and even if I did, if it were something I could replace easily, then I would send a replacement, but in this case I can't since it is a single item.

Based on this and what you said about him delaying payment and such, Im willing to bet that he got the item.
Unfortunately, tracking (and insurance) are the only way to cover your (as the seller) tail. I learned this the hard way myself once. Now, I always do a tracking number at a minimum.

 

[Aesop Rocks]

My friend got into a fist fight with someone we met up with from Craig's List to sell his paintball gun. Called him a few choice/racial words and it was ass beating city after that.