Joker 'JOKER: FOLIE À DEUX' (Phillips and Phoenix return for the sequel) General News & Discussion Thread

[HydraSith12]

if Joker 2 is about the impostor Joker they should adapt the story of Curtis Base with him being played by Willem Dafoe but if the movie is about Harley who will be the Villain then?

 

[NotNickFury]

I’d honestly prefer Nicole Kidman, Jessica Chastain, Rosamund Pike, or Toni Collette. Anya Taylor Joy is too young.

This is it. This is how United States of Tara gets revived...by having Harley as one of Tara's alternate personalities.

 

[fan4stic]

I’m aware of her age and I know she played the love interest to someone who’s only a year younger than Phoenix. But if we get Harley in a realistic way, she needs to be at least in her 30s or 40s to be considered a reputable psychiatrist if that’s the route they go with her character. I just think people automatically fan cast the hottest actresses at the moment instead of thinking outside the box.

Depending on how they do it, she could easily just be a psychology student doing a thesis on this whole thing, in theory. For my personal canon timeline preferences, I can live with the Joker being older than Batman in a universe, but I prefer Harley to be about Bruce's age, if not a year or so younger, with us not really knowing the timeline of when this movie will take place, I think it could be ten years later or so, which could fall in line with that, for me. That's just my opinion.

 

[PepS]

Anne Hathaway would make a good Harley. Though I doubt she'd be considered due to already having played Catwoman.

 

[Karelia]

if Joker 2 is about the impostor Joker they should adapt the story of Curtis Base with him being played by Willem Dafoe but if the movie is about Harley who will be the Villain then?

I am here for Willem Dafoe playing any sort of Joker in live action

 

[Arachnerd]

Really curious about this. Phoenix being 100% onboard with this even though he usually doesn't do sequels or franchises is a good sign imo.

Question right now is, who is exactly the title referring to? I don't hate the Harley idea because I feel that very toxic and pshychologically manipulative part of their relationship hasn't been explored well in live-action yet. Suicide Squad kind of tried to do this, but it dropped the ball and fundamentally misunderstood how their actual relationship is supposed to be.

But if Phoenix is facing off another Joker in this, get Willem Dafoe otherwise there is no point.

 

[henzINNIT]

Perfectly pretentious sub-title for this wanna-be art schlock

 

[Captain Tired]

Bit quick to the trigger, don't you think?

 

[Arachnerd]

I'd add hyperbolic as well.

 

[henzINNIT]

Not really. This is the same team who made the first, no? That 'real movie', as the director described, who thinks making a Scorsese pastiche is elevating the comic book genre. I'm not looking forward to a 'real' sequel. I'd say he should go back to comedies, but of course he also thinks 'woke' culture ruined the genre (not that his films were increasingly bad).

 

[Arachnerd]

Seems like you're presenting your subjective opinions as factual, but alright.

 

[Hollis Mason]

Folie à deux is defined as an identical or similar mental disorder affecting two or more individuals, usually the members of a close family. There are two types of this disorder:
Folie imposée
Where a dominant person (known as the 'primary', 'inducer' or 'principal') initially forms a delusional belief during a psychotic episode and imposes it on another person or persons (the 'secondary', 'acceptor', or 'associate'), with the assumption that the secondary person might not have become deluded if left to his or her own devices. If the parties are admitted to hospital separately, then the delusions in the person with the induced beliefs usually resolve without the need of medication.
Folie simultanée
Either the situation where two people considered to independently experience psychosis influence the content of each other's delusions so they become identical or strikingly similar, or one in which two people "morbidly predisposed" to delusional psychosis mutually trigger symptoms in each other.

The word pretentious doesn't mean "using French in a movie's title". An example of pretentious would be translating "He went to dinner" to French and use it as such. Folie a Deux is a real mental disorder, where two people form a codependent relationship where they share the same psychosis. Either one side manipulates the other into a submissive version of themselves, to the point it makes the other side believe they share the same or believe that person's delusion, be devote to the other side, and not seeing anyone but the one that has the power in the relationship. Or it can be two people that get so close they start sharing their own delusions. Most of times it's from the same family like an adoptive mother and a son (Penny and Arthur), but it can fit in any kind of relationship (Harley and Joker?). The translation for Folie á Deux is "Madness for Two".

This is something that happened in the first movie, with Penny and Arthur. So no, it makes sense with the story, it has a meaning inside the narrative of the first movie, and seems like they want to continue that point of that story, maybe relating it to the relationship Arthur could have with either Bruce or Harleen. Of course we don't know yet, but I'm just saying it has a point already set in the first movie. Folie Imposée is what Arthur had with his mother, making him believe he was Thomas' son, imposing her own delusion into him. Both definitions of Folie a Deux totally fit all the relationships Joker has had with Harley and Bruce. While the exact causes of this are still not enough to set in in the DSM-5, the, mostly, main two contributors correlated in all cases are stress and social isolation. Look at the case of Pauline Parker and Julie Hulme as an example.

 

[HydraSith12]

Now that Joker 2 is real we are gonna to see a third movie? i think we will see Jokerverse Batman sooner or later

 

[Captain Tired]

Bruce Wayne is like 8 during the first film. Assuming Arthur is in his thirties and just looks older because of a life of hardship and poverty, he wouldn't be meeting Batman til he was like 50 or so (much like Nicholson's Joker). So unless Phoenix has plans to wear prosthetics and look even older than he does now at 47, in order to reflect that in-universe age progression, I can't see him ever meeting Batman in the Todd Phillips movies, sadly.

 

[Arachnerd]

I think it's too early to speculate whether there will be a third movie.

 

[HydraSith12]

Bruce Wayne is like 8 during the first film. Assuming Arthur is in his thirties and just looks older because of a life of hardship and poverty, he wouldn't be meeting Batman til he was like 50 or so (much like Nicholson's Joker). So unless Phoenix has plans to wear prosthetics and look even older than he does now at 47, in order to reflect that in-universe age progression, I can't see him ever meeting Batman in the Todd Phillips movies, sadly.

i dont see why is wrong to have a older Joker like you said Jack Napier become the Joker at old age in Batman 89 and he was awesome now that the impostor Joker is probably be the Villain will the impostor Joker be the one that meet Phillips Batman? i still think Arthur will be one that meet Batman since they have a story since the first film

 

[Art Vandelay]

I can't imagine what Batman would even look like in what is mostly a grounded in reality movie. The only way I think it could work is if they keep Arthur's Joker, but drastically change the tone and style.

 

[HydraSith12]

i want Phillips Batman to be like Adam West

 

[Captain Tired]

i dont see why is wrong to have a older Joker like you said Jack Napier become the Joker at old age in Batman 89 and he was awesome now that the impostor Joker is probably be the Villain will the impostor Joker be the one that meet Phillips Batman? i still think Arthur will be one that meet Batman since they have a story since the first film

I... never said it was wrong? In fact I prefer an older Joker in the way of Pheonix or Nicholson. So I wouldn't be at all adverse to Arthur meeting Batman at some point. I just think it's worth noting that, if he were to encounter a Batman who's just starting out, they'd have to account for why Arthur hasn't physically aged twenty years since the events of the first film where Bruce was literally just a kid who was playing in his garden's playhouse. They could either use CGI and/or prosthetics to age him a little more, or they could just bank on the face paint to distract away from that issue altogether.

 

[Hannibal75]

Seems like you're presenting your subjective opinions as factual, but alright.

Joker being a poor man's Taxi Driver (with a pinch of King of Comedy) is a fact.

 

[Hollis Mason]

Joker being a poor man's Taxi Driver (with a pinch of King of Comedy) is a fact.

Taxi Driver is one of the best movies of all time. Every movie from the neo-noir genre is worse from it by default. Phillips in no moment ever tried to deny any kind of inspiration or homage he did. And a comic book story taking from classic cinema is not new. Long Halloween takes a lot from The Godfather. So much in fact Alberto Falcone is basically Fredo. Year One homages many points and scenes from Le Samourai (most of Miller's work, in fact). Arkham Asylum, A Serious Home in Serious Earth, which is basically a mix of The Shining with The Wizard of Oz and Psycho. The Batman homages a lot of Se7en, Zodiac, and Chinatown. The Dark Knight Rises from literature: "A Tale of Two Cities". Hell, the character of the Joker himself is taken from The Man Who Laughs from 1928 and Batman from Zorro, Sherlock Holmes novels, and The Shadow. Are these stories bad? No, they're still good stories that everyone loves, including me, because they execute their own tale while telling said story.

Many stories from this genre are built in homages and inspiration. Even then, the character of Fleck is nothing like Bickle. And if you think this then you need to rewatch both stories, considering both suffer from a different illness and a different story. Fleck being a product of repression, childhood trauma, lack of fatherly figure, and an imposed delusion by her mother, and Bickle a product of war, trauma, and rage. I'm not saying there are not similarities, it's an homage, not only to Taxi Driver but also to Network, Modern Times, Excalibur (The Arthur name coming from there), etc. I'm just saying it's not new in this medium to see that, and both stories have different conclusion and execution. Hell, even Taxi Driver itself is a mix of Le Samourai with The Searchers (something Schrader confirmed, considering the story it's a deconstruction of the "american hero" portrayed in westerns).

 

[Hannibal75]

Taxi Driver is one of the best movies of all time. Every movie from the neo-noir genre is worse from it by default. Phillips in no moment ever tried to deny any kind of inspiration or homage he did. And a comic book story taking from classic cinema is not new. Long Halloween takes a lot from The Godfather. So much in fact Alberto Falcone is basically Fredo. Year One homages many points and scenes from Le Samourai (most of Miller's work, in fact). Arkham Asylum, A Serious Home in Serious Earth, which is basically a mix of The Shining with The Wizard of Oz and Psycho. The Batman homages a lot of Se7en, Zodiac, and Chinatown. The Dark Knight Rises from "A Tale of Two Cities". Hell, the character of the Joker himself is taken from The Man Who Laughs from 1928 and Batman from Zorro, Sherlock Holmes novels, and The Shadow. Are these stories bad? No, they're still good stories that everyone loves, including me, because they execute their own tale while telling said story.

Many stories from this genre are built in homages and inspiration. Even then, the character of Fleck is nothing like Bickle. And if you think this then you need to rewatch both stories, considering both suffer from a different illness and a different story. Fleck being a product of repression, childhood trauma, lack of fatherly figure, and an imposed delusion by her mother, and Bickle a product of war, trauma, and rage. I'm not saying there are not similarities, it's an homage, not only to Taxi Driver but also to Network, Modern Times, Excalibur (The Arthur name coming from there), etc. I'm just saying it's not new in this medium to see that, and both stories have different conclusion and execution. Hell, even Taxi Driver itself is a mix of Le Samourai with The Searchers (something Schrader confirmed, considering the story it's a deconstruction of the "american hero" portrayed in westerns).

Joker isn't just inspired or an homage to Taxi Driver. It's a blatant rip-off.

 

[Hollis Mason]

Joker isn't just inspired or an homage to Taxi Driver. It's a blatant rip-off.

I personally don't see it that way. I enjoyed both stories in their own and had a great time with each one. Still do, in fact. TD is one of my favorites of all time up there with Chinatown and Blade Runner.

Even then, I understand your point and why you would dislike it, so let's agree to disagree. And let's hope we see in the sequel something that goes beyond the 70s and maybe expands Gotham beyond what we saw, and Arthur. Though I'm one of the people that is still doubtful about the story needing a sequel, in the first place. I'm just hoping for the best.

 

[Captain Tired]

Oh goody, this conversation again.

 

[Eddie Dean]

I know everyone wants Dafoe as Joker’s dad, but this should be a Michael Wincott comeback role