MCU Tag Team Battle: Valkyrie & The Destroyer Vs. Glaive, Proxima, & Cull Obsidian

[BigThor]

This is a pretty misleading statement IMO. The first time she faced Hela she had hundreds of other Valkyries to support her, and the only reason she survived was because one of her comrades sacrificed themselves for her. And the second time round, she had Thor to help her. Hela focuses mainly on Thor in that fight. As soon as he's out of the way, Valkyrie is down in seconds and would have been killed were it not for Surtur's arrival.

People keep bringing up Glaive and Midnight losing to Widow, Cap and Falcon but completely ignore the fact that, just like Cap holding back Thanos at the end, that was just PIS designed to make the street-levelers seem relevant in a movie where they really aren't.

Is anyone going to argue that Thanos is barely stronger than Steve?

Very true I agree, they went from physically wrestling with Vision to struggling with street levelers c'mon now that's bad writing.

The Cap and Thanos thing takes the cake though, that was just horrible.

 

[Fosterson]

Very true I agree, they went from physically wrestling with Vision to struggling with street levelers c'mon now that's bad writing.

The Cap and Thanos thing takes the cake though, that was just horrible.

I wouldn't really call it bad writing. Its just a necessity of the movie to make sure all of the characters have their moment(s) in the spotlight. Unfortunately, that approach can lead to some really inconsistent stuff.

 

[BigThor]

I wouldn't really call it bad writing. Its just a necessity of the movie to make sure all of the characters have their moment(s) in the spotlight. Unfortunately, that approach can lead to some really inconsistent stuff.

That's bad writing to me, they could have them using large vehicles and other aids to realisticallly give them a chance against higher tier foes.

 

[Thör-El]

People keep bringing up Glaive and Midnight losing to Widow, Cap and Falcon but completely ignore the fact that, just like Cap holding back Thanos at the end, that was just PIS designed to make the street-levelers seem relevant in a movie where they really aren't.

Is anyone going to argue that Thanos is barely stronger than Steve?

PIS just seems to be shorthand for "I don't like what the writers decided so I'm going to ignore it". Odd way of thinking.

I think Glaive is pretty consistent. He gives Vision a good fight but only because his weapon can cut vibranium and he got to open their fight with a crippling backstab. Wanda ragdolls him a few times because she's far more powerful. Widow/Falcon/Cap got the better of him because of skill/surprise/numbers/using his own vibranium cutting weapon against him, not because they're more powerful. Later in the film we see he's slightly stronger/faster than MCU Cap.

Proxima's faster than Scarlet Witch and more skilled in close quarters so she manages to keep her off balance for a minute but Wanda is far more powerful and ragdolls her once she lets loose. Later in the film she only manages to hurt Wanda with a sneak attack to the back of the head. We see that Proxima's superhuman enough to beat Widow/Okoye at once but nothing incredible.

As for Cap holding back Thanos for a second MCU Cap isn't just peak human like the comic version usually is. He's out and out superhuman with 10 ton+ strength feats. So yeah, I buy that he can use his whole body strength to stop Thanos closing his fist to use the gauntlet for a few seconds (and then Thanos easily knocks him out once he gets serious).

 

[BigThor]

Cap has 10 ton plus strength? He stopped a helicopter from lifting off and it took all of his strength to do it.

That particular helicopter has a 3,000 pound lift, that's only 1.5 tons.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Valkyrie also took out Loki pretty hastily, the same Loki who wiped the floor with Cap in Avengers 1 and fought against Thor and other superpowered beings and walked away. Midnight was knocked down from a kick by a human. Valkyrie is easily above her IMO.

 

[Thör-El]

Cap has 10 ton plus strength? He stopped a helicopter from lifting off and it took all of his strength to do it.

That particular helicopter has a 3,000 pound lift, that's only 1.5 tons.

Yeah, I've heard the same number for the helicopter feat. I'm not sure that's his best strength feat though.

-The steel beam he lifted off Bucky in Winter Soldier's been estimated at 30 tons.
-He can tear a log apart with his bare hands which apparently takes 7 tons plus of force
-He threw a motorcycle hard enough to destroy a hydra truck
-He kicked a 1.5 ton pickup with enough force to send it into a mercenary and rag doll him
-He overpowered Spider-Man when Peter webbed his arms
-According to Agents of Shield he pushed a 50 ton bulldozer the length of a football field in less than 15 seconds.

 

[BigThor]

Yeah, I've heard the same number for the helicopter feat. I'm not sure that's his best strength feat though.

-The steel beam he lifted off Bucky in Winter Soldier's been estimated at 30 tons.
-He can tear a log apart with his bare hands which apparently takes 7 tons plus of force
-He threw a motorcycle hard enough to destroy a hydra truck
-He kicked a 1.5 ton pickup with enough force to send it into a mercenary and rag doll him
-He overpowered Spider-Man when Peter webbed his arms
-According to Agents of Shield he pushed a 50 ton bulldozer the length of a football field in less than 15 seconds.

So Cap lifted a 30 ton steel beam and struggled to stop a helicopter from taking off and failed to stop a car from falling in the very next films.

Okay

 

[Thör-El]

So Cap lifted a 30 ton steel beam and struggled to stop a helicopter from taking off and failed to stop a car from falling in the very next films.

Okay

I didn't get the impression the helicopter was pushing his limits. As for the car, he grabbed it by the bumper and the bumper came off, that doesn't tell you it was too heavy for him.

The maths on the steel beam feat seems rough:
[YT]https://youtu.be/eKucyFap_KE[/YT]
But even if it was actually a bit lighter and it was an adrenaline fuelled pushing his limits moment for Cap it's still ten ton plus which is all I was arguing.

 

[BigThor]

I didn't get the impression the helicopter was pushing his limits. As for the car, he grabbed it by the bumper and the bumper came off, that doesn't tell you it was too heavy for him.

You're right, I watched the AOU scene again and it definitely looks like he could've stopped the car if the bumper would've stayed intact. However he does struggle a bit while doing and yes the helicopter definitely seemed to be close to his limits here it is.

[YT]1ccey7IJLCM[/YT]

The maths on the steel beam feat seems rough:
[YT]https://youtu.be/eKucyFap_KE[/YT]
But even if it was actually a bit lighter and it was an adrenaline fuelled pushing his limits moment for Cap it's still ten ton plus which is all I was arguing.

I just can't buy Cap being a 10 tonner and in the very next two films struggling with less than 2 tons.

If he did a 10 ton feat in films that came AFTER he struggled with less than 2 tons you could just say he got stronger. But the opposite happened, so the only explanation is either Cap got 10 times weaker in the following films or this isn't a 10 ton strength feat.

That latter makes more sense, I doubt the Russos would nerf Cap.

 

[Thör-El]

You're right, I watched the AOU scene again and it definitely looks like he could've stopped the car if the bumper would've stayed intact. However he does struggle a bit while doing and yes the helicopter definitely seemed to be close to his limits here it is.

I just can't buy Cap being a 10 tonner and in the very next two films struggling with less than 2 tons.

For me the best way to square Cap not finding it easy holding down the helicopter with his higher strength feats is to remember he had to take the full force of the Helicopter with one arm so he could hold the platform with the other. The superior feats (steel beam/overpowering Spider-Man/resisting Thanos arm) are all full body strength feats.

Ten to twenty I could buy but arguing the beam was only two tons instead of thirty seems a hell of a stretch to me. It looks like solid steel and even carbon fibre isn't anywhere near that light.

 

[BigThor]

For me the best way to square Cap not finding it easy holding down the helicopter with his higher strength feats is to remember he had to take the full force of the Helicopter with one arm so he could hold the platform with the other. The superior feats (steel beam/overpowering Spider-Man/resisting Thanos arm) are all full body strength feats.

Ten to twenty I could buy but arguing the beam was only two tons instead of thirty seems a hell of a stretch to me. It looks like solid steel and even carbon fibre isn't anywhere near that light.

I never said the beam was 2 tons, not once did I ever say that it's more like 10-11 tons. Cap didn't fully lift the beam off the ground anyway, he lifted a small section so Bucky could squeeze out, most of the beam was still on the ground.

Using your full body still doesn't make you over 10 times stronger than just using your upperbody. A person's bench press is not over 10 times less than their squat, heck even a bicep curl is not over 10 times less than a squat.

If he was a 10 tonner or lord have mercy a 20 tonner, that helicopter would've been snatched out the air in seconds. Also that car he tried to catch would've been a cake walk, I agree he could've stopped it but he still struggled WAY too much to be a 10-20 tonner and he was using his full body btw.

 

[Thör-El]

I never said the beam was 2 tons, not once did I ever say that it's more like 10-11 tons. Cap didn't fully lift the beam off the ground anyway, he lifted a small section so Bucky could squeeze out, most of the beam was still on the ground.

Easy on big guy, it seemed like the logical conclusion to you saying Cap's a 2 tonner. Sure he wasn't lifting it over his head or anything but he was able to move it and it was probably significantly heavier than 10-11 tons.

Using your full body still doesn't make you over 10 times stronger than just using your upperbody. A person's bench press is not over 10 times less than their squat, heck even a bicep curl is not over 10 times less than a squat.

If he was a 10 tonner or lord have mercy a 20 tonner, that helicopter would've been snatched out the air in seconds.

Not ten times but one arm vs full body is a hell of a difference.

Lifting the steel beam, that Agents of Shield bulldozer feat, actually winning a tug of war against Spider-Man, damaging pre-Vibranium Ultron/Iron Man and then resisting Thanos arm. He's got a good collection of feats above the Helicopter feat/two ton level.

Back on topic, if you really think Cap's strength's that low then Corvus Glaive's best feat of overpowering Cap becomes a lot less impressive. If Corvus isn't ten ton plus and Proxima had to struggle against Widow/Okoye then they're getting stomped by Valkyrie in seconds.

 

[BigThor]

Back on topic, if you really think Cap's strength's that low then Corvus Glaive's best feat of overpowering Cap becomes a lot less impressive. If Corvus isn't ten ton plus and Proxima had to struggle against Widow/Okoye then they're getting stomped by Valkyrie in seconds.

This got me thinking, man Cap is really hard to classify since his feats all over the place.

Yep I don't think Corvus Glaive is a big dog in the strength category, he did grapple with a greatly weakened Vision but he was overpowered. He only managed to gain the upperhand on Vision using his glaive which is very powerful, strictly hand to hand he didn't seem amazingly strong.

 

[Batmannerism]

Okay, let me start by coming clean - I voted before properly reading the poll, and clicked Val + Destroyer.

Honestly, with Proxima, Glaive and Cull as a 3 on 2, I see them winning.

I suspect that Glaive's weapon could damage the Destroyer, and he's a master of back stabbing.

I see the fight going down like this:

- Proxima engages Val while Cull engages the Destroyer.

- Val would certainly gain the upper hand if given time, as would the Destroyer, but Proxima and Cull manage to survive the initial clash.

- Glaive skewers Val from behind, killing her ( we know the Glaive can kill asgardians)

- the three then turn to the Destroyer, who likely disintegrates Proxima. Glaive can likely deflect his death beams and Cull's shield might take a couple of blasts before melting.

Glaive and Cull tag then team the Destroyer, and eventually do enough damage to incapacitate it. In the process at least one of them very likely dies.

The key factor, IMO, is numbers. Fighting more than one opponent at once is extremely difficult - a person is lucky to survive, much less win.

I call this a narrow win for the Black order.

 

[BigThor]

I'm gonna make "The Destroyer vs Cull Obsidian" battle next time it's mine turn to make an MCU Fight.

 

[Batmannerism]

I'm gonna make "The Destroyer vs Cull Obsidian" battle next time it's mine turn to make an MCU Fight.

A real "one-shot wonder" battle, tough to call !

 

[Thör-El]

Honestly, with Proxima, Glaive and Cull as a 3 on 2, I see them winning. I suspect that Glaive's weapon could damage the Destroyer, and he's a master of back stabbing.

I see the fight going down like this:
- Proxima engages Val while Cull engages the Destroyer.
- Glaive skewers Val from behind, killing her ( we know the Glaive can kill asgardians).

So you're assuming Valkyrie doesn't even know it's 3 vs 2 and Corvus gets a free backstab like he did against Vision?
That's just about the only way I can see them winning to be honest.

In a fair fight Valkyrie's more than skilled enough to fight 2 on 1 and physically she's a tier above Corvus and Proxima.

 

[BigThor]

A real "one-shot wonder" battle, tough to call !

Lmao, if this was a boxing match that would be the billing.

 

[Thör-El]

A real "one-shot wonder" battle, tough to call !

Very tough to call.

With the the Destroyer we know it's enough of a powerhouse to take on four elite Asgardian warriors but not enough to be a major threat to Thor. It's designed to be immune to stabbing attacks, can easily kill Frost Giants and walks through fire. That Thor chose to keep it off balance/avoid engaging it in hand to hand maybe gives a hint it was capable of being a threat but he still killed it fairly easily within a minute.

For Cull Obsidian we know he was winning against Bleeding Edge Iron Man and gave Hulkbuster (piloted by Bruce Banner) a good fight. On the other hand he lost to Bruce despite him having no experience piloting Iron Man armour, he had his killer blow blocked by Spider-Man and he was knocked out by a charged Black Panther punch.

I'd probably vote Destroyer because it doesn't have a poor showing against characters weaker than Thor (who I imagine could curb stomp Cull just as easily as he did the Destroyer).

 

[BigThor]

Very tough to call.

With the the Destroyer we know it's enough of a powerhouse to take on four elite Asgardian warriors but not enough to be a major threat to Thor. It's designed to be immune to stabbing attacks, can easily kill Frost Giants and walks through fire. That Thor chose to keep it off balance/avoid engaging it in hand to hand maybe gives a hint it was capable of being a threat but he still killed it fairly easily within a minute.

For Cull Obsidian we know he was winning against Bleeding Edge Iron Man and gave Hulkbuster (piloted by Bruce Banner) a good fight. On the other hand he lost to Bruce despite him having no experience piloting Iron Man armour, he had his killer blow blocked by Spider-Man and he was knocked out by a charged Black Panther punch.

I'd probably vote Destroyer because it doesn't have a poor showing against characters weaker than Thor (who I imagine could curb stomp Cull just as easily as he did the Destroyer).

Thor's fight with The Destroyer was his smartest approach to a fight in the entire MCU, why doesn't he fight that way more often?

Most time he just chooses to run in and brawl like a jackass (similar to the comics) lol dude you have weather powers USE them.

 

[Thör-El]

Thor's fight with The Destroyer was his smartest approach to a fight in the entire MCU, why doesn't he fight that way more often?

Most time he just chooses to run in and brawl like a jackass (similar to the comics) lol dude you have weather powers USE them.

My guess is Thor had fought the Destroyer before or had at least seen it in action and knew what it was capable of so he didn't try to brawl. On the other hand he massively underestimated Kurse and paid dearly for it (he didn't get the chance to recover and use speed/skill/lightning).

We also see him approach fighting Hulk a little differently the second time round. On the helicarrier I think he was surprised to be outclassed in pure strength.

 

[BigThor]

My guess is Thor had fought the Destroyer before or had at least seen it in action and knew what it was capable of so he didn't try to brawl. On the other hand he massively underestimated Kurse and paid dearly for it (he didn't get the chance to recover and use speed/skill/lightning).

We also see him approach fighting Hulk a little differently the second time round. On the helicarrier I think he was surprised to be outclassed in pure strength.

And also Thor was weakened in the first Avengers, so that might be why in their Ragnarok fight he didn't look as threatened by Hulk.

Thor seemed more worried and concerned in Avengers, where as in Ragnarok he said things like "I don't wanna hurt you" and "I'll get you out of their Banner".

 

[Batmannerism]

So you're assuming Valkyrie doesn't even know it's 3 vs 2 and Corvus gets a free backstab like he did against Vision?
That's just about the only way I can see them winning to be honest.

In a fair fight Valkyrie's more than skilled enough to fight 2 on 1 and physically she's a tier above Corvus and Proxima.

IMO.
Even without a free backstab, unless Val concentrates on defence (particularly against the Glaive) sooner or later she'll be seriously if not mortally wounded. Unless she cuts down Proxima with her first swing and then engages Corvus 1 to 1, she's in trouble. They may not have her skills or strength but at least one if their weapons can kill her and they're not as dumb as the asgardian zombies. if they work together she's in big trouble - if they attack like bad guys in a Bruce Lee film, 1 at a time, she's fine, but if they attack together simultaneously she's got a problem.

Alas, we will never know for sure !

 

[BigThor]

Bad guys in Bruce Lee films are stupid lol, I never understood why they ran up one at a time like that.