MCU vs thread....controversy and chaos

[Spider-Aziz]

Shang Chi is the clear winner here

*merciless spectators booing this unreasonable decision*

I mean *with a swoolen cheek I speak* .. Spider-Man won this one. Let's move on to the next match

SHANG CHI (No Rings)

vs

T'CHALLA AND KILLMONGER (No Herb Power)​

 

[InCali]

Shang Chi is the clear winner here

*merciless spectators booing this unreasonable decision*

I mean *with a swoolen cheek I speak* .. Spider-Man won this one. Let's move on to the next match

SHANG CHI (No Rings)

vs

T'CHALLA AND KILLMONGER (No Herb Power)​

 

[Docker2.0]

T'challa and Killmonger. Both are extremely well trained from birth individuals.

 

[Luigi]

The cousins win this. Shang-Chi is no slouch but he's not good enough to defeat two highly trained fighters at the same time.

 

[Batmannerism]

Shang Chi is the clear winner here

*merciless spectators booing this unreasonable decision*

I mean *with a swoolen cheek I speak* .. Spider-Man won this one. Let's move on to the next match

SHANG CHI (No Rings)

vs

T'CHALLA AND KILLMONGER (No Herb Power)​

Shang chi has lots of pretty moves but Kilmonger is a stone killer - Shang Chi has killed one person, Kilmonger has killed dozens. Having Tchalla there is just overkill.

Shang Chi loses.

 

[metaphysician]

Martial arts skills, no matter how amazing, do not make a person superhuman - although this is a common conceit in Kung fu films.

I'm going to stop you there, because this is the fundamental error on which everything else you are saying rests.

In both kung fu stories and superhero comics, martial arts skill *absolutely* can make you superhuman. There are countless characters for which this is the case in both Marvel and DC: Mantis, Iron Fist, Cassandra Cain, Lady Shiva, *Karate Kid*, and indeed, Shang Chi himself. "Sufficient esoteric martial arts training" is a downright common superpower origin. You may not *like* that this is the case, but in the genre material it absolutely is the case, just as much as how exposure to weird radiation is more likely to give you powers than cancer.

 

[metaphysician]

As for Shang Chi vs the Wakandan Combo Platter? T'Challa and Killmonger should take it. Without their herb powers Shang is better than either one of them alone, but as I've suggested above, he's on the low end of the "superhuman fighter" range, and they both have sharp pointy weapons in this case to boot. That said, they absolutely *don't* win because of some "willingness to kill", because a willingness to kill is a neutral character trait, not a magical advantage. Doubly so since Shang-Chi didn't exactly angst over fighting enemies in dangerous situations prone to getting them killed; there is no real evidence in the movie that he has any kind of meaningfully-distracting refusal to allow his enemies to die. "I don't want to cold bloodedly murder someone" is not the same thing.

 

[Batmannerism]

I'm going to stop you there, because this is the fundamental error on which everything else you are saying rests.

In both kung fu stories and superhero comics, martial arts skill *absolutely* can make you superhuman. There are countless characters for which this is the case in both Marvel and DC: Mantis, Iron Fist, Cassandra Cain, Lady Shiva, *Karate Kid*, and indeed, Shang Chi himself. "Sufficient esoteric martial arts training" is a downright common superpower origin. You may not *like* that this is the case, but in the genre material it absolutely is the case, just as much as how exposure to weird radiation is more likely to give you powers than cancer.

I have to admit you have a point there - although pretty low level superhuman at best.

Iron Fist I'll grant you has developed chi mastery to a level where it grants him bona fide super powers - particularly the eponymous one. Karate Kid is similar.

There is still no way that Shang Chi should be able to seriously hurt someone who can survive being hit by a train at speed. During the film we don't see him hitting anyone or anything with enough power to suggest he can do so - we don't see him punch through concrete or steel - as such I still maintain he can't beat Spidey, or Cap or Bucky without the rings.

As for Shang Chi vs the Wakandan Combo Platter? T'Challa and Killmonger should take it. Without their herb powers Shang is better than either one of them alone, but as I've suggested above, he's on the low end of the "superhuman fighter" range, and they both have sharp pointy weapons in this case to boot.

That said, they absolutely *don't* win because of some "willingness to kill", because a willingness to kill is a neutral character trait, not a magical advantage. Doubly so since Shang-Chi didn't exactly angst over fighting enemies in dangerous situations prone to getting them killed; there is no real evidence in the movie that he has any kind of meaningfully-distracting refusal to allow his enemies to die. "I don't want to cold bloodedly murder someone" is not the same thing.

I disagree, willingness to kill is not a neutral character trait, it is a significant tactical advantage, because it widens options. If you are willing to kill an opponent you can employ tactics and techniques that aren't open to someone who isn't willing to do so.

I'm not suggesting Shang Chi has any particular aversion to killing people - although he did run away after his first assassination ( what a ***** !)

But even then, being willing to allow opponents to die is distinguishable from being willing to kill them outright i.e. that if a killing attack is the easiest and quickest means to victory, the person will do that first.

Think about how much more dangerous
Spider Man would be, and he would have a much easier time in fights if he was willing to kill. Spidey could literally punch Doc Ock's head clean off.

The Punisher is able to take on large numbers of very dangerous opponents without any superpowers because he has the skills, firepower and the willingness to use them to deadly effect.

Going back to Kilmonger, he definitely is willing to kill opponents as a first option. Give him a gun and this fight is over in seconds. Give him a knife and he will try to inflict disabling and then fatal wounds on Shang Chi as quickly as possible.
Even with bare hands, if he is willing to punch Shang Chi right in the throat that gives him an easier path to victory.

 

[InCali]

If these posts get any longer, we're going to have to set up Leo Tolstoy v Victor Hugo. LOL.

 

[Docker2.0]

The Wakandan bros win!! Next up:

The Invinsible Iron Man

vs Loki

Damn shame that I have to use Loki from a darn cartoon because the MCU has never given us a full blown pissed off Loki to show us what he can really do!!

 

[Spider-Aziz]

This match-up should last quite a bit, I don't see either one of them winning real soon, especially with Iron Man having flight maneuverability and no Thor lightning to recharge his suit.

I think I'll watch the episode before voting, but I'm tempted to go with Loki on this one.

If these posts get any longer, we're going to have to set up Leo Tolstoy v Victor Hugo. LOL.

You did not vote in the match I set-up. I shame you.

 

[InCali]

This match-up should last quite a bit, I don't see either one of them winning real soon, especially with Iron Man having flight maneuverability and no Thor lightning to recharge his suit.

I think I'll watch the episode before voting, but I'm tempted to go with LOKI on this one.

You did not vote in the match I set-up. I shame you.

I feel like a whipped dog. Lol

 

[Docker2.0]

I feel like a whipped dog. Lol

You should! You don't do my boy like that!

 

[Batmannerism]

The Wakandan bros win!! Next up:

The Invinsible Iron Man

vs Loki

Damn shame that I have to use Loki from a darn cartoon because the MCU has never given us a full blown pissed off Loki to show us what he can really do!!

Iron Man wins 8/10.

Tony flattened Loki with a much less advanced suit. The nano suit lasted for a significant time in single combat with Thanos, who had 4 infinity stones at the time.

The nano suit just has too much firepower, mobility and versatility. Also Loki's illusions may not be effective against the suit's advanced sensors.

As such Tony is going to crush Loki at least 8/10 times IMHO.

 

[Luigi]

Iron Man

The nanotech suit is just too advanced and powerful for Loki. However, if Loki really wanted to, he could have wrecked the Mark VI suit in their first encounter.

Damn shame that I have to use Loki from a darn cartoon because the MCU has never given us a full blown pissed off Loki to show us what he can really do!!

 

[Docker2.0]

Iron Man wins 8/10.

Tony flattened Loki with a much less advanced suit. The nano suit lasted for a significant time in single combat with Thanos, who had 4 infinity stones at the time.

The nano suit just has too much firepower, mobility and versatility. Also Loki's illusions may not be effective against the suit's advanced sensors.

As such Tony is going to crush Loki at least 8/10 times IMHO.

Loki didn't go all out against Ironman. He was plotting the entire time to destroy the Avengers. Even with the mind stone he didn't go all out. He never once used his magic or allusions on Tony. Loki has taken a full blown beat down from the Hulk and got up without a mark on him. You are grossly underestimating him or just being blinded by how the MCU portrayed him.

 

[InCali]

Loki falls in love with Tony, gets betrayed and loses.

 

[Batmannerism]

Loki didn't go all out against Ironman. He was plotting the entire time to destroy the Avengers. Even with the mind stone he didn't go all out. He never once used his magic or allusions on Tony. Loki has taken a flown blown beat down from the Hulk and got up without a mark on him. You are grossly underestimating him or just being blinded by how the MCU portrayed him.

I'm going to reply to that post in the same manner it was written, although also sober.

Ummmm, not a mark on him ? What about this...

Or this ...

Using allusions would be tough to take down Tony, given that allusions are a literary device.

Maybe you mean "illusions". Anyway, he didn't use illusions on Tony, but then his illusions don't have to fool Tony, they have to fool the super sophisticated electronic sensors that are built into the nanotech suit.

How long did Loki last against Thanos with 2 infinity stones before being straight up killed ?

On that showing alone nanosuit Tony is orders of magnitude tougher and more capable than Loki.

Also, whether Loki went full out against Iron Man ( mark whatever suit Tony wore in Avengers) in Avengers doesn't matter, because Loki is now up against a suit that took on Thanos one on one, and made him bleed.

Comparing relative feats of characters, who have not definitively fought each other is the best rational method for determining the likelihood of who will defeat the other. On the above, observed feats Tony almost certainly defeats Loki. So yes, how the MCU portrayed Loki is directly relevant. Up to this point he has fought Frost Giants and Thor, which is impressive - but the nanosuit fighting Thanos is a lot more impressive.

Finally, the character in the image you provided is MCU Loki, he's who Loki would have been had Thor died in the 2011 film . Therefore MCU Loki is the correct point of comparison - clearly distinguishable from comic book Loki.

 

[Docker2.0]

I'm going to reply to that post in the same manner it was written, although also sober.

Ummmm, not a mark on him ? What about this...

Or this ...

Using allusions would be tough to take down Tony, given that allusions are a literary device.

Maybe you mean "illusions". Anyway, he didn't use illusions on Tony, but then his illusions don't have to fool Tony, they have to fool the super sophisticated electronic sensors that are built into the nanotech suit.

How long did Loki last against Thanos with 2 infinity stones before being straight up killed ?

On that showing alone nanosuit Tony is orders of magnitude tougher and more capable than Loki.

Also, whether Loki went full out against Iron Man ( mark whatever suit Tony wore in Avengers) in Avengers doesn't matter, because Loki is now up against a suit that took on Thanos one on one, and made him bleed.

Comparing relative feats of characters, who have not definitively fought each other is the best rational method for determining the likelihood of who will defeat the other. On the above, observed feats Tony almost certainly defeats Loki. So yes, how the MCU portrayed Loki is directly relevant. Up to this point he has fought Frost Giants and Thor, which is impressive - but the nanosuit fighting Thanos is a lot more impressive.

Finally, the character in the image you provided is MCU Loki, he's who Loki would have been had Thor died in the 2011 film . Therefore MCU Loki is the correct point of comparison - clearly distinguishable from comic book Loki.

He was telling jokes and was in no real bad shape. Loki has NEVER gone all out in the MCU, only in the cartoons.

 

[Batmannerism]

He was telling jokes and was in no real bad shape. Loki has NEVER gone all out in the MCU, only in the cartoons.

Again, observable feats.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Ok, I think I'm convinced as to why IRON MAN is more deserving of a vote of winning on this one, so I will vote for him.

Sorry Docks.

 

[Luigi]

Iron Man wins this one. In keeping with the Iron Man theme, next up we have:

Iron Man

vs.

The Mandarin

Who wins?

 

[Batmannerism]

Iron Man wins this one. In keeping with the Iron Man theme, next up we have:

Iron Man

vs.

The Mandarin

Who wins?

The mark 3 suit probably lacks the versatility and firepower to take on the Ten plot devices - the Nanotech suit would be a better match.

Mandarin wins.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

MANDO, I CHOOSE YOU

Both this and Mandalorian are Disney properties, I can give one the nickname of the other guy just fine.

The MK III was limited in capabilities, and I don't know if it would provide a sufficient challenge with its less experienced -at the time- pilot to Mandarin. And it has pretty limited energy reserve, considering I immediately think of the compact reactor Tony built in a cave with a box of scraps.

 

[InCali]

Iron Man.