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Phoenix: Did you like her explanation?

Well, with the previous films, it does set up that she was evolving to a point. But, the explaination in The Last Stand doesn't throw all of that out either. There's a reason why she started to evolve more rapidly in X2 and that was because of the incidents that happened to her at specific points in the previous film.

With this film, we understand why she was evolving/changing. The psychotic barriers had been breached.

The part that doesn't make sense was the naming of it, aka The Phoenix. It's just not needed to tell the story. They could've done without it.
 
J.Howlett said:
With this film, we understand why she was evolving/changing. The psychotic barriers had been breached.

You were wise to put changing in there, because I wouldn't classify what you described as evolution. I don't believe a person unlocking abilities they already have as evolution, and thus is why I think it fails in regard to what had been previously established.

I think when people sit down and watch this supposed trilogy all together, there will be a clear rift between the first two movies and the third on a number of fronts.
 
The other way it could've been done is that when they bring her back to the mansion, Xavier would do an immense examination in trying to understand how she returned from her death.

With that, they could've explained how she came back. Still, the explaination in the film isn't neccessarily bad. It's just the naming in the film that's very, very cheesy.

cyke, I agree. This film doesn't fit tonally with the previous films but the Phoenix explaination isn't really that bad. It doesn't throw out at all what was being set up.
 
I think it was handled perfectly for the movieverse. Prof X said it was another personality, which could lead to anything, even the cosmic creature that is using jean as a host. If FOX ever wanted to go with the Phonix as the force it'll easier to go into deeper explaination as opposed to her evolving, which I honestly don't like because it was going to far away from the comics. I've always know Jean to be the host for this entity called Phoenix. Of course all the cosmic stuff and aliens are to away from what we've seen in the movies, so they shouldn't bring that stuff in, but i like the Ultimate universe's expalnation better and it would work better for a movie. I think it would be good for FOX to continue the Phoenix storyline if we get an X4 and clean up the Scott mess they made.
 
I mean, multiple personality disorder is a real thing. Who's to say a mutant doesn't have that same disease? And with that, what if the alternate personality had a different type of mutation/powers?

For this movie universe of X-Men, that's a good explaination.
 
Ok, after reading these posts, I agree, the mental blocks idea isn't bad and it remains consistent with the other movies: Magneto's machine broke these blocks. She was learning about her new side in X2. It's just the name "Phoenix" is wrong. WHy did it call itself Phoenix haha? Why not Sandra? Carl? It was funny when he said that, "it called itself Phoenix." :down
 
I wouldn't say she was learning about this new side to her in X2. She knew something was different and she was testing it's limits. By the time her and Scott had their climatic battle in X2, that supressed power had gotten lose...hence what happens to her at the end.
 
I doubt they could explain the whole space entity thing, so it's fine with me. It was pretty simple, and IMO it worked. This is coming from a fan of the comics.
 
Honestly, to me, all of this sounds like fans' attempts to try and make it work rather than the movie actually doing that for the fans. If it was done properly, the movie shouldn't have left any questions about this.
 
The film didn't really leave in questions. The explaination was just way too quick and we didn't have to time to really let it sink in. Plus, the naming of Phoenix was just inappropriate.
 
J.Howlett said:
The film didn't really leave in questions. The explaination was just way too quick and we didn't have to time to really let it sink in. Plus, the naming of Phoenix was just inappropriate.


Would you have preferred the Black Queen of the Hellfire Club? :)
 
I would have liked it more if her chaos would have been the result of her powers gradually spiraling out of control resulting in her inability to cope with them . . . rather than there always having been this literal split personality fostered by Xavier . . . the explanation felt rushed and out of the blue . . . kind of like an "Oh, and by the way."
 
absolutely nothing about the character phoenix in this movie had to do with The comics, or the tv show.. guess this was the charactor that Brett just came up with himself.
 
"Phoenix" needed... well, don't know exactly what could it be.... let's see.... well... don't know..... a phoenix?

 
hrmm, i wonder what bryan originally had planned for this movie. *ponders*
 
J.Howlett said:
The film didn't really leave in questions.

Funny we'd have two sides of a debate then if everything was clear as crystal with no questions or problems, wouldn't you say?

When you look at the third film by itself, the second personality idea could have worked. But it's when you look back at the previous films and what had been established that the idea falls completely apart.

Xavier references in X3 that he put up the mental blocks to "isolate her powers from her conscious mind" and how the conscious Jean was always in control of her powers. The conscious Jean persona, according to Xavier, did not have access to the stronger powers because Xavier blocked them from her, an action that created the dual personality Phoenix.

We can conclude two important things from this. One, according to Xavier, the Jean Grey persona is always in control of her powers. And two, the removal of Jean's mental blocks would not only release the powers but also the personality, according to X3's explanation, since the personality was a direct result of the blocks and was hidden away with the powers.

However, in X2, in the museum scene, we see Jean incapable of controlling her telepathy and TK powers (she admits as much herself but also see the flickering televisions) with no mention or sign of this other personality. This defies the explanation provided, because we're seeing the Jean persona without control of these powers, and we're seeing the powers without the persona that supposedly goes with it.

Jean is tapping into these powers that were previously blocked from her consciousness, yet no sign of the other personality appears in the process. Nor does Xavier seem too worried about it, even though he knows full well that (1) he himself blocked these powers from her and (2) the other personality associated with these powers could very likely surface since he admits in X3 to having seen it in their private sessions.

Furthermore, when Jean calls upon these powers at the greatest level we've seen at the movie's climax, it's in an incredibly selfless and noble act - the saving of her teammates from utter destruction - and is the complete opposite of what this explanation tells us about the more powerful and rage-filled Phoenix persona. Again, no sign of the Phoenix personality even though Jean is readily and largely tapping into a vast amount of power that had, again according to X3, been blocked from her.

That doesn't even begin to try to explain the distinct differences in the manifestation of those powers. As Jean tapped into her stronger powers at the end of X2, there was a clear fire effect. She was surrounded in flame, and her eyes became red with fire. At the end of the film, the shape of a firebird can be seen on the water.

That doesn't appear anywhere in The Last Stand. Phoenix's powers are completely different and look nothing like what we saw in X2. She's sucking the life out of people with a black veiny look and demolecularizing them with no signs of any kind of fire manifestation that accompanied the previous use of this power. The fire that appears in the final battle is from the destruction taking place, not the kind of manifestation we saw surround Jean herself in X2.

Also, though this is rather minor in comparison, we're told in X2 that Jean could cancel out a mutant's power - Nightcrawler tells us that he can't teleport to get Jean from outside the plane because "she's not letting me." Yet as the Phoenix, to stay alive, Jean could have easily cancelled out Logan's healing factor and finished him off like everyone else. X2 tells us Jean/Phoenix has this power at her disposal, yet she for some reason doesn't use it.

You could argue that the Jean side of her wouldn't let Phoenix do that, but through that argument, you open the door to why the Jean side would have let any of it happen if she were strong enough to hold the Phoenix back from its power. Why would she let it kill Scott, the man she love and chose to be with in X2? Why would she let it attack Logan at all? By this explanation, endless more questions are raised.

And this is why it does not work, IMO. Not because of flaws it has standing alone, but the flaws revealed as part of the series. Because the writers (or whoever was responsible for this decision) did not tie the ideas together with what had been previously done. It's as if they were going off of a cliff notes page of what had happened in X1 and X2 rather than sitting down, watching the movies, and crafting their story to fit what had been established. And ultimately, in my opinion, this is why it disappoints.

Still think I haven't let it really sink in? ;)
 
cyke,

What would you have done differently? You do raise excellent points...I'll have to go back and watch X-Men and X2.

But, you could argue that Jean could've gone through further transformation while she was gone...again, doesn't really work but is possible.
 
The main thing that bothered me was Xavier's attitude of how he had dealt with Pheonix since childhood. He was a lot more like scarier, somewhat more amoral Prof. X of the Ultimate universe....meh.
 
It was all Professor X's Fault! He was holding Jean back!! -throws something across the room-


:p
 
I didn't like how Xavier explained 'the Phoenix' it went too quickly, and a lot of the people in my theatre were laughing, and confused, I think.

(my theatre audience sucked)
 
The thing is.. Why the heck did they not do test screenings of fans before they released this movie, and got some feedback from them, a cross section of 100 people could have easily Found the fundimental issues that we all have problems with, and fix it.
 
J.Howlett said:
cyke,

What would you have done differently? You do raise excellent points...I'll have to go back and watch X-Men and X2.

Honestly, it's hard to say. I haven't exactly sat around brainstorming what should have been or what I would have rather seen. That said, I know when something doesn't work when I see it, and that just didn't seem to work for me.
 
I thought the way the film handled the Phoenix situation was great...that throwback scene of Jean as a little girl was great...talk about a problem child. I liked this interpretation better than the comic, which has become way too convoluted lately for me to wrap my head around. Only thing is I dunno where Jean calling her surpressed personality "Phoenix" came from...they probably should've found a way to tie that in somehow.
 
Young jean was cute. :)

... talk about having a bad side, Famke mentioned she had a bad side too in her early life in an interview. hmmm
 

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