World Raimi vs Webb Comparison Thread

[The Joker]

I'm thankful for Sony's intervention, if Marc had his way the movies would've been worse.

And that's saying something.

 

[W/ Great Power]

i for one never liked the raimi films tone. yes there have been serious moments but it's mostly cartoonish and odd for me. though yes, TASM 2 is guilty of this as well but the only cartoon people i can think of is max, kafka, and that morgue guy but then again the morgue guy seemed to be just some intern having fun so i don't believe he counts.

I thought I would bring this post in here to respond.

For you to see the original trilogy and think there were only some serious "moments" is ridiculous. I felt the tragic aspects of Peter's life all throughout the three films. It was the opposite, in my opinion, as I felt it was serious with light-hearted moments that kept it from being too dark.

I liked the tone in TASM2, honestly. I just wish there were hints of it in TASM1 because the sudden change, at times, made me feel like I'm watching an entirely different series. I believe TASM2 should have started out light, without the parent storyline (the intro with Spidey's entrance into NYC was awesome) and eventually progressed as a darker film, especially after Gwen's death and the setting up of the S6. In between that they could have ended the parents storyline if they really wanted to include it that much. But overall, it should have began with Spidey enjoying his power and ended with him realizing the harsh reality of using it properly. That dark tone could have perfectly led into the S6 movie.

 

[OriginalMiles]

Raimi's movies did a better job at balancing the cheesy and serious elements of Spider-Man than the Webb movies.

TASM leaned towards the darker/serious stuff more (however, I stand by my belief that it wasn't really that dark) while TASM2 went OTT with the cheese.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Raimi just seemed to have a better handle on the material. You could tell he knows it. Webb seems more brought in for his relationship expertise with only a superficial knowledge of Spider-Man. At least that's the impression watching these films.

 

[Frodo]

Raimi's three films , for the most part gave audiences a pretty comprehensive view of the Spiderman legend over the past 50 odd years. The Webb films sort of covered most of the stuff that wasn't covered by Raimi, hence , they really didn't have alot of new material to cover. Raimi had exhausted the Goblin saga, save the death of Gwen , which by the time Webb got to it, it seemed like an after thought. Raimi had pretty much exhausted the May, Ben, and Peter relationship which meant Webb had to focus on the parents aspect which was always problematic in the comics.

Raimi had already introduced MJ, which to alot of people, is Peter's Lois Lane, so that meant Webb had to go to the Stacy's which were exhausted after two films , so the audience really didn't get a chance to bond with that family over a few films. Raimi had used Spiderman's big league baddies The Goblins, Doc Ock, and Venom , in addition to Sandman. That meant Webb was left with the leftovers like Lizard, Electro , Rhino, and yet another version of Harry Goblin.

Ultimately I see the Webb films as supplementary material to the Raimi films. When Raimi's Peter fears that MJ will be hurt if they get together you can see ASM 2 and Gwen's death of an example of why Maguire's Peter would stay away from Dunst's MJ. Together , the 5 films give a pretty in depth tapestry of the Spiderman myths.

That's why I feel the next film has to take the character or explore a different aspect of the myth which hasn't been done, namely the part of the character which is placed into circumstances greater than saving downtown new york or worrying about his latest love interest.

 

[W/ Great Power]

Raimi's three films , for the most part gave audiences a pretty comprehensive view of the Spiderman legend over the past 50 odd years. The Webb films sort of covered most of the stuff that wasn't covered by Raimi, hence , they really didn't have alot of new material to cover. Raimi had exhausted the Goblin saga, save the death of Gwen , which by the time Webb got to it, it seemed like an after thought. Raimi had pretty much exhausted the May, Ben, and Peter relationship which meant Webb had to focus on the parents aspect which was always problematic in the comics.

Raimi had already introduced MJ, which to alot of people, is Peter's Lois Lane, so that meant Webb had to go to the Stacy's which were exhausted after two films , so the audience really didn't get a chance to bond with that family over a few films. Raimi had used Spiderman's big league baddies The Goblins, Doc Ock, and Venom , in addition to Sandman. That meant Webb was left with the leftovers like Lizard, Electro , Rhino, and yet another version of Harry Goblin.

Ultimately I see the Webb films as supplementary material to the Raimi films. When Raimi's Peter fears that MJ will be hurt if they get together you can see ASM 2 and Gwen's death of an example of why Maguire's Peter would stay away from Dunst's MJ. Together , the 5 films give a pretty in depth tapestry of the Spiderman myths.

That's why I feel the next film has to take the character or explore a different aspect of the myth which hasn't been done, namely the part of the character which is placed into circumstances greater than saving downtown new york or worrying about his latest love interest.

Great post and comparison, Frodo

 

[Spider-Gnome]

That's why I feel the next film has to take the character or explore a different aspect of the myth which hasn't been done, namely the part of the character which is placed into circumstances greater than saving downtown new york or worrying about his latest love interest.

So why doesn't the next film cover the Clone Saga and One More Day, so Sony can officially kill the franchise.

 

[Frodo]

So why doesn't the next film cover the Clone Saga and One More Day, so Sony can officially kill the franchise.

Lol...Because that's what the Aunt May film is for.t:.

 

[Venom75]

One of the things I like most about Raimi's trilogy is how hard it is to be a hero. Sometimes it can be hard to do the right thing and not be selfish. I love how Peter really seems to struggle with being Spider-man and things very rarely seem to go his way. Even when things start going his way(at the beginning of Spder-man 3)another obstacle comes along and tests Peter. He learns something in each movie and by the end becomes not only a better person,but a better hero.
With Webb's films he really only shows how fun it can be being Spider-man. That can be good sometimes. I wanna kinda live through Peter and have this incredible power and have fun with it,but you never get the feeling with Garfield's Spidey that with great power comes great responsibility.

 

[Lantern Venom]

With Webb's films he really only shows how fun it can be being Spider-man. That can be good sometimes. I wanna kinda live through Peter and have this incredible power and have fun with it,but you never get the feeling with Garfield's Spidey that with great power comes great responsibility.

I couldn't disagree more. Webb's films just tackle that issue from a different angle. Captain Stacy was well aware of heroism's burden. Peter began learning that when he accidentally screwed up an operation by the NYPD, and kept getting hard lessons that ended with Gwen's death. Peter comes to understand that being a hero isn't just about effort vs. non-effort, but weighing the risks of each action beyond simple intention.

 

[Frodo]

I couldn't disagree more. Webb's films just tackle that issue from a different angle. Captain Stacy was well aware of heroism's burden. Peter began learning that when he accidentally screwed up an operation by the NYPD, and kept getting hard lessons that ended with Gwen's death. Peter comes to understand that being a hero isn't just about effort vs. non-effort, but weighing the risks of each action beyond simple intention.

I think I would agree with you, though I would agree with the previous statement in the sense that Garfield's Peter really doesn't feel the weight of the guilt that Macguire's Spiderman did. Yes he was crushed about Ben's death, and in ASM 2 he's guilty for what happened to Captain Stacy, though its more about him breaking Stacy's promise. That aside, the Garfield Parker wasn't tortured the way Maguire's Peter was by his culpability in Ben's death and by the lies he was telling those he cared about.

Now , I think that was a conscious decision by the writers of the ASM films not to hit the same beats in the same way again, but I would say it is a noticeable difference between the two Peter Parkers. It's clear the writers in ASM 2 at least, as a contrast to the tortured Raimi version of the character. Yes he''s torn about his obligations to father and daughter ,but he really wasn't tortured by it. In that sense his Spiderman life doesn't effect his personal life in ASM 2 to the same extent it did in the Raimi films imo.

 

[spiderral]

Raimi's three films , for the most part gave audiences a pretty comprehensive view of the Spiderman legend over the past 50 odd years. The Webb films sort of covered most of the stuff that wasn't covered by Raimi, hence , they really didn't have alot of new material to cover. Raimi had exhausted the Goblin saga, save the death of Gwen , which by the time Webb got to it, it seemed like an after thought. Raimi had pretty much exhausted the May, Ben, and Peter relationship which meant Webb had to focus on the parents aspect which was always problematic in the comics.

Raimi had already introduced MJ, which to alot of people, is Peter's Lois Lane, so that meant Webb had to go to the Stacy's which were exhausted after two films , so the audience really didn't get a chance to bond with that family over a few films. Raimi had used Spiderman's big league baddies The Goblins, Doc Ock, and Venom , in addition to Sandman. That meant Webb was left with the leftovers like Lizard, Electro , Rhino, and yet another version of Harry Goblin.

Ultimately I see the Webb films as supplementary material to the Raimi films. When Raimi's Peter fears that MJ will be hurt if they get together you can see ASM 2 and Gwen's death of an example of why Maguire's Peter would stay away from Dunst's MJ. Together , the 5 films give a pretty in depth tapestry of the Spiderman myths.

That's why I feel the next film has to take the character or explore a different aspect of the myth which hasn't been done, namely the part of the character which is placed into circumstances greater than saving downtown new york or worrying about his latest love interest.

I think I would agree with you, though I would agree with the previous statement in the sense that Garfield's Peter really doesn't feel the weight of the guilt that Macguire's Spiderman did. Yes he was crushed about Ben's death, and in ASM 2 he's guilty for what happened to Captain Stacy, though its more about him breaking Stacy's promise. That aside, the Garfield Parker wasn't tortured the way Maguire's Peter was by his culpability in Ben's death and by the lies he was telling those he cared about.

Now , I think that was a conscious decision by the writers of the ASM films not to hit the same beats in the same way again, but I would say it is a noticeable difference between the two Peter Parkers. It's clear the writers in ASM 2 at least, as a contrast to the tortured Raimi version of the character. Yes he''s torn about his obligations to father and daughter ,but he really wasn't tortured by it. In that sense his Spiderman life doesn't effect his personal life in ASM 2 to the same extent it did in the Raimi films imo.

Great posts.

As already mentioned, the TASM series has suffered from spending too much time on the origin story, building up the character of Spider-Man again and trying to avoid most of the things covered in the Raimi films, hence Uncle Ben (and Aunt May too) having little to do in the TASM films.

The TASM series would have benefited from going the Spectacular-route and have Spider-Man just starting out and have him stay in high school for maybe two whole films. They could have done his origin in a very quick flashback (him getting bit, Uncle Ben being shot, I don't think including the killer is necessary) because most people know his origin anyway, we can fill in the blanks if the reboot begins with Spider-Man already being Spider-Man.

Spider-Man's origin is deeply ingrained in popular culture and they would have done it justice if they hadn't had tempered with it in the TASM films by having the unnecessary parents plot line and deviating for Uncle Ben's role in Spider-Man's life. I appreciate the TASM series covering things we haven't necessarily seen before, but consciously trying to separate itself from the Raimi films has kind of backfired on the rebooted franchise.

IMO, the TASM films should have started with the first two merged together; Peter is already Spider-Man and has the TASM2 suit but is still beginning his crime-fighting career. He meets Gwen in high school, they get together and Capt Stacy is introduced too. Harry, Flash, MJ and co. are also at high school.

Electro could be the first villain for the first film but not exactly like the TASM2 Electro. In TASM2, Peter is offered a job working with Doctor Connors at Oscorp, where Gwen is already working with him. While working for Connors, Peter and Gwen's bond grows stronger and the two get to meet the Connors family. Peter is already feeling a sense of belonging as he becomes more comfortable as Spider-Man, becomes more comfortable around Gwen and almost gets to experience what it's like being in a full family with the Connors, spending time with them whilst he's at work and reflecting on how things were with Uncle Ben and Aunt May at home. This has a greater impact on Curt's transformation into the Lizard and Peter making sure he helps him without hurting him, making sure the Lizard is kept safe from his family and wondering whether it's morally right to turn Curt in for terrorizing the city. I guess there can be a very short mention of Peter's parents and Peter wondering what it would still be like to have them around but he then goes on to say how Aunt May and Uncle Ben are his parents and how he couldn't ask for anything better.

TASM3 could feature Mysterio and the plot can be whatever (I'm too lazy to think of anything now). That gives you three quite varied villains for the series and offers the chance for some exciting storytelling.

 

[Lantern Venom]

I just added the Blu-Ray to my collection. I know Electro doesn't quite have the status in the Spidey mythos as Goblin or Ock, but Jamie Foxx made him larger than life. Plus the effects made him the scariest Spidey villain on film so far.

 

[Rocketman]

Here are my 2 cents.

Raimi made a really good comic-book version of Spider-Man, and that goes for all three films. Webb made two really good movies about Spider-Man, but they didn't really capture the classic essence of Spidey like Raimi did.

And you know, for all of its faults, I really don't mind Spider-Man 3 that much. At the end of the day, we need to remember that this stuff is for kids and it's really not the end of the world if things turn out differently than we hoped. There is plenty of source material in the comics and in the cartoons that are way worse than the content in Spider-Man 3, and sometimes we don't make that connection.

I'm always confused by people who hate on Batman & Robin, and then get really excited about buying the 1966 TV show on Blu-Ray. It's like, really?

 

[Spooderman]

Here are my 2 cents.

Raimi made a really good comic-book version of Spider-Man, and that goes for all three films. Webb made two really good one decent and one poor movie about Spider-Man, but they didn't really capture the classic essence of Spidey like Raimi did.

Fixed that for you.

 

[OriginalMiles]

Nooo, that's YOUR opinion.

 

[Andrew Lucas]

Ah, why kids have to edit other users posts is something that I will never understand.

To the topic, the first movie fight scenes never impressed me that much. Looks too much false. Overall, SM2 has the best choreography of the entire cinematic run, and TASM2 nails with the visual and agility aspect.

 

[OriginalMiles]

Ah, why kids have to edit other users posts is something that I will never understand.

To the topic, the first movie fight scenes never impressed me that much. Looks too much false. Overall, SM2 has the best choreography of the entire cinematic run, and TASM2 nails with the visual and agility aspect.

I agree, 100%.

If only we could get a movie with the choreography of SM2, imagery of TASM2 and the tone & writing of TASM1...

 

[spiderral]

I agree, 100%.

If only we could get a movie with the choreography of SM2, imagery of TASM2 and the tone & writing of TASM1...

That would actually be a great combination. The only thing I'd say is keep Spidey's characterisation from TASM2.

 

[Daltonio]

I forgot this thread existed, lol.

Despite greatly preferring the Webb films by far, there is one thing I really feel is missing that was very well-done in the Raimi films. It's a little hard to explain but there was a real sense of a world because of so many different character relationships and dynamics they had going on that also carried through to different films and kept a strong continuity there. The world-building was a definite strength of those films. I love that Webb focused in on the Peter+Gwen relationship and I thought Peter+Harry was very well done too, but those were really the only characters that had much interaction together.

The kinds of things I'm referring to are:
- Spidey and the NYC citizens
- Peter and the Bugle staff
- Peter and Dr. Connors
- Peter and Mr. Ditkovich & Ursula

 

[Spider2099]

The Raimi films had a great sense of "NYC pride" and community that's missing from the Webb movies.

 

[DACrowe]

The Raimi movies, for the most part, built a huge supporting cast for Peter. Not as big as the comics, but more than most superhero franchises (not the MCU, but as in individual character series, i.e. Iron Man, Thor, etc.) the Spidey movies had a supporting cast continuity and sense of lived-in world. Well these and Nolan's Batman movies of course.

The Webb films don't really have an internal logic. They change scene by scene to check off whatever Sony box they had. That is why the films look so different, and even from minute to minute there is no real internal logic to the story.

 

[Spider2099]

I very much agree with you on that one. Even if the next movie is good, the TASM films as a whole are just too sloppy. Such a terrible franchise.