Sequel? Your Thoughts...

[S. Grundy]

....yep. More flower close-ups and more poodles.

The Hulk dogs were from the comics.

 

[rogue trooper]

Indeed. Fierce pitbull-like dogs. No French poodle.t:

The point is, TIH doesn't need to take anything from Lee's film.

 

[S. Grundy]

Who gives a **** that it was French poodle. It's semantics.

 

[rogue trooper]

Who gives a **** that it was French poodle. It's semantics.

I never denied that there weren't any mutated dogs in the comics. I'm just saying some things work better on screen than others.

 

[dft-313]

I liked the poodles - it proved that Lee wasn't being entirely serious.

Anyway, who cares about wearing a trenchcoat - I'd rather a good script, a good cast and a director who knows what they're doing.

 

[The Guard]

So I just reread Hensleigh's WAR ZONE script. It's not terrible, and it gets Frank Castle right, and definitely has some nice moments in it. I could have enjoyed a movie based on it, but I think I still like WAR ZONE better overall as a chapter in The Punisher's career. It just seems to have more to it, and the various elements of The Punisher and his world are handled a bit better. Even the criminals have a bit more depth. While Hensleigh's script features a more faithful Pittsy, and did include several classic Ennis moments (The Cesare murder, mobsters in a cage, Frank's musings on New York, The Holy, etc, etc, etc), it's basically about 60 percent plagerism, with Jigsaw substituted in directly for various MAX characters, almost word for word. Granted, doing this allows Jigsaw building his "mob" to be a bit more rounded.

Lexi Alexander's script takes a few lines from the comics, but is mostly a new effort that adapts what has come before, and deals with the relevant issues in what seems to me to be a slightly more serious manner. It also deals with more issues involving The Punisher, period. Her Jigsaw even has a bit more emotional depth than Hensleigh's did, thanks to his reaction to what happened to him and his brotherly bond with LBJ. I wouldn't say Hensleigh's Jigsaw is any more "serious" a psychopath than the movie version's was, though I do like the way he was "damaged" via the mirror in Hensleigh's draft, albeit not as dramatic as the glass crusher. Also, almost every major theme in Hensleigh's draft is found somewhere in the WAR ZONE script, and WAR ZONE improves on several of them. The action sequences in the Alexander script are also a bit more involved and impressive, and overall, somewhat less cheesy, and more serious.

 

[Kable24]

You got to remember that Hensleigh's was just the first draft too.

 

[The Guard]

You got to remember that Hensleigh's was just the first draft too.

Well, seeing as how that's all I have to compare, I'll compare what exists rather than think about what "could have been". If your first draft doesn't contain most of your key elements, there's usually no reason to believe later drafts would. Most of what shows up on onscreen in WAR ZONE is essentially Lexi Alexander's first draft as well. And Lexi Alexander's first draft already contains many of the elements that I believe bettered the Hensleigh draft. She built on his, sure (as he built on Garth Ennis in a very direct way), but I do think that she delivered a better overall story and a slightly more rounded take on The Punisher.

 

[cryptic name]

So I just reread Hensleigh's WAR ZONE script. It's not terrible, and it gets Frank Castle right, and definitely has some nice moments in it. I could have enjoyed a movie based on it, but I think I still like WAR ZONE better overall as a chapter in The Punisher's career. It just seems to have more to it, and the various elements of The Punisher and his world are handled a bit better. Even the criminals have a bit more depth. While Hensleigh's script features a more faithful Pittsy, and did include several classic Ennis moments (The Cesare murder, mobsters in a cage, Frank's musings on New York, The Holy, etc, etc, etc), it's basically about 60 percent plagerism, with Jigsaw substituted in directly for various MAX characters, almost word for word. Granted, doing this allows Jigsaw building his "mob" to be a bit more rounded.

Lexi Alexander's script takes a few lines from the comics, but is mostly a new effort that adapts what has come before, and deals with the relevant issues in what seems to me to be a slightly more serious manner. It also deals with more issues involving The Punisher, period. Her Jigsaw even has a bit more emotional depth than Hensleigh's did, thanks to his reaction to what happened to him and his brotherly bond with LBJ. I wouldn't say Hensleigh's Jigsaw is any more "serious" a psychopath than the movie version's was, though I do like the way he was "damaged" via the mirror in Hensleigh's draft, albeit not as dramatic as the glass crusher. Also, almost every major theme in Hensleigh's draft is found somewhere in the WAR ZONE script, and WAR ZONE improves on several of them. The action sequences in the Alexander script are also a bit more involved and impressive, and overall, somewhat less cheesy, and more serious.

this is true. hensleigh's script is mostly just cut and paste with the comics and doesn't even have much of a story going for it, just events, one after another.

 

[dft-313]

this is true. hensleigh's script is mostly just cut and paste with the comics and doesn't even have much of a story going for it, just events, one after another.

because it was a first draft. All scripts go through multiple drafts, between 8 and 9 is standard once the actors are involved and rehearsals begin.

Hensleigh was an established screenwriter long before he became a director - this was the initial draft, not a shooting script.

 

[The Guard]

Henseligh's first draft was mostly plagerism and doesn't have much in the way of story because it was a first draft?

How's that logic work?

 

[S. Grundy]

That maybe he was just throwing **** at the wall for the first draft to see what would work and what would not, maybe that's just his writing process.

 

[dft-313]

Henseligh's first draft was mostly plagerism and doesn't have much in the way of story because it was a first draft?

How's that logic work?

It was an adaptation of Ennis' run with the character. That's not plagarism, you monkey. It doesn't have much in the way of story because he was just tying together a bunch of scenes that he liked - trying to secure funding, get actors interested - something to work with.

 

[The Guard]

It was an adaptation of Ennis' run with the character. That's not plagarism, you monkey. It doesn't have much in the way of story because he was just tying together a bunch of scenes that he liked - trying to secure funding, get actors interested - something to work with.

If it was called THE PUNISHER: DO NOT FALL IN NEW YORK or something, and featured the elements of a single story, I'd agree with you that it was adapting Ennis's work. What it was was a hodgepodge of the world Hensleigh helped create for THE PUNISHER, steeped in Henseligh's "style", and a few scenes that he lifted from Garth Ennis's work and haphazardly threw together. Does that read ok? Sure, sometimes. It's mostly just Ennis actual words and ideas, with some of the characters interchanged here and there. Here's the thing. Nowhere on the script is Garth Ennis credited. The script reads THE PUNISHER WARZONE: By Jonathan Hensleigh. It doesn't read THE PUNISHER: WARZONE based on stories written by Garth Ennis, or anything of that nature.

It is, by the definition of the word, pretty much plagerism as it is presented.

And regardless of whether or not that was Henseligh's intent (I'm sure he just really likes Ennis's run, and wished to honor it, and that's fine), my point stands. It is not an impressive piece of writing from Hensleigh himself. Copying someone else's words and ideas for 60 percent of your script does not impressive writing make. At least Lexi Alexander did something partially creative with her take on The Punisher, even though some of it was based on Hensleigh's own script.

I'm not sure which world you come from that it's just "ok" for a first draft to be subpar, cheese-laden, and only be a loose collection of ideas and scenes that a writer likes, but has no idea how they're supposed to mesh together. I don't know any professional writer who subscribes to that belief.

 

[goh78]

There's no way this will get a sequel. One of the worst reviewed films of the year, and bombs away at the box office. Put that on top of two 'dissapointing' films before it, and you'd have to be an idiot to finance another Punisher film. At least not for 10 years or so.

 

[dft-313]

If it was called THE PUNISHER: DO NOT FALL IN NEW YORK or something, and featured the elements of a single story, I'd agree with you that it was adapting Ennis's work. What it was was a hodgepodge of the world Hensleigh helped create for THE PUNISHER, steeped in Henseligh's "style", and a few scenes that he lifted from Garth Ennis's work and haphazardly threw together. Does that read ok? Sure, sometimes. It's mostly just Ennis actual words and ideas, with some of the characters interchanged here and there. Here's the thing. Nowhere on the script is Garth Ennis credited. The script reads THE PUNISHER WARZONE: By Jonathan Hensleigh. It doesn't read THE PUNISHER: WARZONE based on stories written by Garth Ennis, or anything of that nature.

It is, by the definition of the word, pretty much plagerism as it is presented.

And regardless of whether or not that was Henseligh's intent (I'm sure he just really likes Ennis's run, and wished to honor it, and that's fine), my point stands. It is not an impressive piece of writing from Hensleigh himself. Copying someone else's words and ideas for 60 percent of your script does not impressive writing make. At least Lexi Alexander did something partially creative with her take on The Punisher, even though some of it was based on Hensleigh's own script.

I'm not sure which world you come from that it's just "ok" for a first draft to be subpar, cheese-laden, and only be a loose collection of ideas and scenes that a writer likes, but has no idea how they're supposed to mesh together. I don't know any professional writer who subscribes to that belief.

Plenty of scripts start off that way. When I write an article, it oftens starts that way. it's called a SPEC SCRIPT for a reason.

Anyway, Ennis has no right to be credited as he retains no rights to the use of those story elements. he signed to write one of Marvel's characters and he gave up his ancilliary rights over filmed properties.

That's not theft, that's the name of the game.

 

[jebhdb]

I don't understand why they just didn't go to Ennis for a screenplay. In an interview on the Punisher archives he said that he would like to get into writing screenplays, so why not go to the guy that most people feel is the premier Punisher writer?