Superheroes and cynical Fans

[RONDC20]

Hello fellow Fan boys and Fan girls. I want you to ask yourselves one question. Why do you like Superhero comics? Is it the flashy costumes? The Cool Superpowers and awesome action? The Badass characters? Or are you drawn to Superheroes because of something deeper, something more meaningful and substantial

For me this is an easy answer. I am drawn to the sheer unwavering amiable and idealistic heroism of these characters.

I am an idealist. I strive to be a better person. To be selfless and kind to my fellow man and a huge part of why I am desperate for self improvement is because of Superheroes.

They inspire me to see the good in myself and others. To strive for something better. To simply be the best that I could possibly be. Is this not what these stories and characters should do for all of us?

Should, would, could. You know The Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons? He's a major *******. He's patronizing and sarcastic and just plain mean spirited. Ironically I have actually met people like him in real life.

I have been to many comic books stores filled with these types of Fan boys and Fan girls. Cynical and overly judgmental and just angry. I am left wondering why? I mean should not the Superheroes we read about motivate us to be better?

I was at a message board for a new Spider-Man video game
called Web of Shadows and several of the people there were asking if in the game Spider-Man could hit or kill civilians.

This irked me greatly.

I mean what the HELL!! Is wrong with these people? This is a Superhero game, not a Super ******* game. Spider-Man is a Super "hero" a decent and upstanding person. He is selfless, amiable and idealistic even in the face of Adversity.

What really bothers me is that so many Superhero/comic book fan boys can be so mean spirited, rude and just plain nasty. I mean you would think that some of the qualities of the Superheroes they read about would rub off on them.

If I had a nickel for every time I've been to a forum that has anything to do with Superheroes and read some truly appalling and inexcusable things. Things about raping someone's children or the ever popular skull f&@ing I would be rich.

I have read some really, really nasty and reprehensible stuff from people who are supposed to be Superhero fans.

I just don't get it. Do we really live in such a mean spirited and cynical world where the Superheroes that should inspire us to be better people don't and instead we just become meaner and nastier to each other and ask for things like killing or hitting innocent civilians in a Superhero game?

I don't know about you guys, but I never want to see a world where spider-man hurls an innocent person off a building. I strive to be a better person. To be kind to my fellow man and selfless. Yea it may sound corny, but I'm an idealist so sue me.

 

[Hush]

I like capes and watching them move, yes know thats wierd but thats a literal reason. I just love how it gives a character mystique or allows them to announce there presence, just love it. The Cap is iconic and there isnt a kid in the world who hasnt tied a towel around there neck for the very reason to act like Superman or Batman.

 

[RONDC20]

Really Hush? Is that the only reason? There is'nt anything deeper and more substantial that draws you to these characters?

 

[CBG]

Because I like these kinds of stories.

 

[RONDC20]

Because I like these kinds of stories.

Thats a legitimate reason. I'm not trying to belittle anyone's reason for liking superheroes and if it sounds like I am then I am sorry.

We all like these stories for our own reasons. All I am saying is Superhero comics have something to say about us.

These stories are about characters who choose to use their powers and abilities to help people, to protect people.

I just want people to see that and take it to heart. without these elements these stories become shallow and without substance.

It's these deep elements of selflessness and heroism that make superhero comics special.

 

[CBG]

But comic books aren't necessarily about superheroes.

Technically, it's just another medium which one can tell stories with.

 

[RONDC20]

I know CBG, but I am talking about Superhero comics in particular

 

[Andy C.]

This really oughta be in the Misc. Comics forum.

But to answer the question about why people want Spidey to kill people in a game, I think it has a lot to do with the medium itself. A vast majority of today's videogames appeal to the inner sadist in most people, letting them vent their frustrations via an easy power-fantasy. A lot of people play games just so they can get away with doing stuff they could never do in regular society. And in that case, the ability to act like a gigantic tool usually overshadows whatever point is trying to be made.

Case in point--Star Wars: The Force Unleashed. Previous games like KotOR or Jedi Outcast have delved into what it means to be a Jedi, the nature of the Force, the rich and expansive history of the SW Universe, etc. The Force Unleashed lets you throw TIE Fighters at people. Guess which one is more popular among casual fans.

As for the mean-spirited behavior online, what can I say? This is the Internet. Barking at each other anonymously without fear of any meaningful reprisal is the bread and butter of any message board, especially ones where brand loyalties are involved. Hate to say it, but that sort of crap is just business as usual.

 

[BATZARRO WWD]

Well, in that specific game, Spider-man was put in an "open world game" made popular by Grand Theft Auto, wich itself was made popular by the fact you can beat up civilians. Obviously some folks wanted to know if you can do that. And most "would" try if only fo r kicks. That said, I agree there is often a high degree of cynisism in fan groups. Oh, yes there is. I try to be realist/optimist about certain things, while for others if it's got some minor detail they dislike it might as well not exist.

Specifics:
Earlier this year I was hyped about two films: The Justice League movie and the Street Fighter one. I joined IMDB to keep up with their developments(or lack thereof) and man, was there a negative spark in that. Turns out a lot of folks were rather convinced the movies would be bad. And not only that, that opinion I can respect. But I'm amazed at the amount of "cancel X movie/game/show" ones. And in the case of Justice League, well, it was cancelled, allegedly in part due to negative buzz. But the reasons were never about what the movie had, it was about what the movie hadn't: Fame-names(exept for the director).

Another thing that really bothers me is the revissionistic nature that is sweeping the fandom. To some now ALL old Batman movies sucked because the newest is well liked. Now the first two X-Men and Spider-man movies were terrible because the latest ones disappointed. That's stupid. If you watch a movie, or play a game, or read a comic and you enjoyed it, a later one doesn't have an effect on the fun you already had!

Sorry. I'm ranty today.

 

[RONDC20]

Andy, Batzarro you made some excellent points. It is all rather sad and disappointing. My inner sadist is not really all that huge. In games where you could make a choice between being good and evil I always chose good. KOTOR 1 and 2, Fable, Mass Effect all these games I chose the noble route and never had any temptation to do the evil things that these games allow you to do, but I guess that’s just the kind of guy I am.

Alas yes. The Internet is simply another excuse for people to be nasty to each other without any consequences. To many people on the internet the individual on the other end of the screen is not a real person. They don't have feelings or ideas and as far as their concerned they don't deserve the decency and respect you would give a person you were face to face with.

I never let myself forget that the person on the other end of my computer screen is a real human being. I treat them just as I would want to be treated. I always maintain my composure and never lose my temper. I am never vulgar or rude.

You would actually be surprised at how well this works at diffusing a volatile situation on a message board. Someone burns you on a forum, Instead of acting on impulse and burning them back, just take a deep breath and calm down. Once you have respond in an intelligent and calm fashion and try not to escalate the situation.

This essentially just stops everything. The guy who is causing all the problems is forced to examine his posts and sees that you were the bigger person in the situation. The fact that they were not able to get to you really upsets them.

In the long run this is way more effective than continuing a flame war.

Essentially this is why I am drawn to Superhero comics. In the cynical world that we live in today these characters choose to do the right thing.

We seem to be living in a world where we seem to
Celebrate the worst in people and belittle and ridicule the best in them. We write off decency and kindness as corny and weak.

If living in a world where trying to respect the basic rights of Those around you and valuing each other simply because we exist are
Such daunting and impossible tasks, then what sort of world are we Left with? And what sort of world do you want to live in?

Feelings of anger and hate fester and breed in all hearts, but we can Still try, we must.

 

[Whirlysplat]

I think the reason Superhero comics are so popular in America is because Americans like to feel powerful. It's a bit like the little kid at school who wants muscles so he takes up bodybuilding, he never stops being a little kid.

-Alan Moore paraphrased from recently.

 

[Hush]

Really Hush? Is that the only reason? There is'nt anything deeper and more substantial that draws you to these characters?

No its not the only reason I could go into a long, Very long, drawn out explanation on how I think comics are Americas mythology but i thinki will chose not to. lol

 

[Andy C.]

I actually do agree with Ron and Batzarro; I'm just trying to play the devil's advocate here. I can't stand a lot of the petty divisiveness among fandoms or any sort of community, but at the same time I'm trying to point out why it's there to begin with.

As for Moore's quote about how superheroes are just a power-trip, I really don't think he understands the American mindset. More than anything, the average American is steeped in a culture that (at least on the surface) promotes morality and ethics, and a sense of duty to correct something we see as wrong. Which is why it's so easy to get us up in arms about social issues, politics, etc. It's why the evangelicals go on 'crusades' to clean up the media, why the environmentalists strap themselves to trees. For all of the good that comes from it and all of the trouble it causes, we are nothing if not deeply passionate about our ideals.

Superheroes embody that even better than most religions' gods. I don't think the American comic fan reads superhero stories to feel powerful--we read them because we like to be right.

 

[RONDC20]

Good points Andy, You know I thought for sure some *****ebag was going to come in here and flame me and essentially help me prove my point, but I am plessantly surprised that I was wrong.

Everyone's responses were informed and mature. If only more people on internet messageboards were like you guys.

 

[Keyser Soze]

I have mixed feelings about this thread. When I saw the title, it immediately caught my interest, as I thought it would be bringing up some concerns I myself have had through my experience in comic book forums. And upon looking into the thread, there are some valid points raised here. But you end up sending something of a confused message with your scattered focus, paying lip-service to a few tenuously linked ideas rather than focusing on one.

I think some of the issues you raise are too "big" to really discuss in all but the most general of terms. And the biggest idea of all is these issues you raise about people wanting to act violently in video games, and the prominence of bad language in everyday vocabulary. I could certainly write a lot about such issues, but I don't think a thread in the comics section of Superhero Hype is the place to do it. Though I will say that there is little harm in wanting to blow people up in video games. Me and my friends merrily chainsaw-bayonet each other playing "Gears of War" online, not because we have some deep-rooted anger towards the world or rampant violent tendencies, but because it's harmless fun.

The other more general, but somewhat more relevant issue you raise is message board etiquette. This is a real pet peeve of mine, these "message board warriors" who will trash-talk and insult and make threats while hiding behind their keyboards. Places like iMDB or Youtube really seem to have an abundance of such idiots. I agree with you when you say that it's best to just treat people online like you'd treat them face-to-face. That's what I always try to do. I just don't comprehend the mentality of someone who would do otherwise. I'm sure that these people wouldn't dream of being so disrespectful if the person they were attacking was standing in front of them, so why do it online? I wish I could say it's just the immaturity of kids, and they'll grow out of it, but I know of 30 year old men who behave in this way. Sadly, this is a deep-rooted human problem, and just seems to be part of some people's nature, and so I don't see what can be done about it.

Funnily enough, the issue that immediately sprung to my mind when reading your title is one you actually mention very little in the thread itself. The issue of "cynical superhero fans". I have encountered people - on these boards and others - who just don't like... ANYTHING! Like, if something's popular, then it becomes taboo and untrendy to like it. I regularly find myself really excited about a comic I've read or some upcoming project, and I go to a thread to talk about it, and my excitement's just deflated completely by the "meh, this will suck" or "meh, this comic is overrated" posts. I feel sorry for these people to a degree, in that they grimly go about devoting their time and money to something they clearly have a lot of dislike for. Back at the start of the decade, when comics ceased to entertain me to the standard they previously had, I stopped reading for a few years. And I'm getting more comics now than ever because I genuinely enjoy them.

And similarly, I see real issues of elitism on comic-book message boards. Someone mentioned the bad attitudes of new Batfans drawn in by "The Dark Knight", but on the flipside, I should also bring up the hostile attitudes TOWARDS these people. I saw a post a while back from someone who hated the fact that comics have become popular. They were in their comic shop, and some people were in saying they were new to comics and wanted good starter TPBs recommended to them, and the guy almost wanted to see them get thrown out. Because they were bandwagon jumpers, and weren't with the community in the "bad times", whatever the hell that's supposed to mean. And making comics accessible to new readers seems to be the unpardonable sin to some veteran readers. As a longtime comic fan, I'm personally excited about this newfound trendiness of comics. While I used to be a bit embarassed about my comic fandom, I now find my non-comic-fan friends asking me to lend them comics, or asking me about what comics to pick up. I think the arrival of new fans to the world of comics should be encouraged, not condemned.

And that brings me to your opening question. Why do I like reading superhero comics? Because they are, for lack of a better term, pure storytelling, good and evil placed on a grand, operatic scale. Because these are universes filled with iconic and creative characters, many whom have decades of history behind them, to the point where we feel like we know them. Because when done well, these are never-ending, ever-evolving narratives that can be at once literary and cinematic.

 

[baerrtt]

Hello fellow Fan boys and Fan girls. I want you to ask yourselves one question. Why do you like Superhero comics? Is it the flashy costumes? The Cool Superpowers and awesome action? The Badass characters? Or are you drawn to Superheroes because of something deeper, something more meaningful and substantial

For me this is an easy answer. I am drawn to the sheer unwavering amiable and idealistic heroism of these characters.

I am an idealist. I strive to be a better person. To be selfless and kind to my fellow man and a huge part of why I am desperate for self improvement is because of Superheroes.

They inspire me to see the good in myself and others. To strive for something better. To simply be the best that I could possibly be. Is this not what these stories and characters should do for all of us?

Should, would, could. You know The Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons? He's a major *******. He's patronizing and sarcastic and just plain mean spirited. Ironically I have actually met people like him in real life.

I have been to many comic books stores filled with these types of Fan boys and Fan girls. Cynical and overly judgmental and just angry. I am left wondering why? I mean should not the Superheroes we read about motivate us to be better?

I was at a message board for a new Spider-Man video game
called Web of Shadows and several of the people there were asking if in the game Spider-Man could hit or kill civilians.

This irked me greatly.

I mean what the HELL!! Is wrong with these people? This is a Superhero game, not a Super ******* game. Spider-Man is a Super "hero" a decent and upstanding person. He is selfless, amiable and idealistic even in the face of Adversity.

What really bothers me is that so many Superhero/comic book fan boys can be so mean spirited, rude and just plain nasty. I mean you would think that some of the qualities of the Superheroes they read about would rub off on them.

If I had a nickel for every time I've been to a forum that has anything to do with Superheroes and read some truly appalling and inexcusable things. Things about raping someone's children or the ever popular skull f&@ing I would be rich.

I have read some really, really nasty and reprehensible stuff from people who are supposed to be Superhero fans.

I just don't get it. Do we really live in such a mean spirited and cynical world where the Superheroes that should inspire us to be better people don't and instead we just become meaner and nastier to each other and ask for things like killing or hitting innocent civilians in a Superhero game?

I don't know about you guys, but I never want to see a world where spider-man hurls an innocent person off a building. I strive to be a better person. To be kind to my fellow man and selfless. Yea it may sound corny, but I'm an idealist so sue me.

The irony with any hero fiction (comics, films, books etc) is that any genuine morality stories once traditionally had were diluted by individuals who were attratcted to the more 'right-wing' aspects of certains characters.

Look at how Frank Miller views Batman (YEAR ONE aside) a character that had been around for decades until his groundbreaking work.

 

[Aristotle]

I just don't get it. Do we really live in such a mean spirited and cynical world where the Superheroes that should inspire us to be better people don't and instead we just become meaner and nastier to each other and ask for things like killing or hitting innocent civilians in a Superhero game?

I'm sorry it took you so long to realize this, dude, but yes, we do live in that world. It's not just superheroes, it's all of our pop-culture mythologies. We don't have a moral system anymore. We have rejected the idea of governing morality, because it seems outdated. We are too postmodern, too "enlightened," for something as silly and old-school as ethics.

Ethics are a joke now! They're a punchline! No one gets laughed at quite as much as hippies and conservative Christians. What do those groups have in common? A sincere, meaningful, substantial belief in their morality. Don't for a moment believe that to be a coincidence. We don't believe in morality anymore. We don't believe in ethics.

And that, purely and simply, is why Marvel will always outsell DC. That is why Warners is going to take the new Superman movie in a "darker" direction. That's why Wolverine and Punisher and Hitman Codename 47 and every Jason Statham character will always be "cooler" than Spider-Man. That's why people like Boba Fett, Han Solo, and Darth Vader more than Luke Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi.

That's the world you live in, man. How could it possibly have taken you so long to see it?

 

[RONDC20]

Arisotle

It's not that It took me long to realize this, it's just that for the first time it reared it's ugly head to me. I have a sincere, meaningful, substantial belief in my ethics and morality and I am neither a hippie nor a right wing conservative.

I still in morality and I still believe in ethics. Why are ethics and morality considered silly? Why is simple decent behavior considered outdated? I guess I'll never know.

If the term darker alienates the core morality of the character then that’s not the character. I just hope Superman does not become some dark brooding tortured guy who suddenly starts killing.

The word “darker” scares me. I mean I would like to think that WB is smart enough to not do anything stupid like try and turn Supes into Wolverine or even Batman, but one never knows.

I still want him to be the Boy Scout. The amiable, selfless and noble hero I know and love. You know what's funny? I love Han Solo and Luke Skywalker, Sure Han is a rouge and a pirate, but the guy is still essentially a good person. He's not the anti-hero your trying to make him out to be.

I will always like Spider-Man better than Wolvie or Punisher.

You make some good points, but that does not mean that we can't try to be decent to each other. I will always try. My moral and my ethics are extremely important to me. I don't care if their a joke or are outdated.

Were too postmodern, too "enlightened," for something as silly and old-school as ethics? What does that even mean? That being respectful and a decent human being is stupid? That being a**holes to each other is cool and acceptable?

Well that may be the case. I don't understand it or like it, but I do have to accept the fact that this is the messed up world we live in.

I for one will never sell out my ethics, my beliefs, my morals. I will always treat people with respect and decency and if people think that I'm being silly or stupid and I'm laughed that then so be it. At least I can sleep and night knowing that I'm doing all that I can to be the best person I can possibly be.


Keyser Soze


Ok yes the video game issue was perhaps not the right thing to bring up on here, but I was trying to make a point. I never cared for games like GTA. This game basically celebrates being a murderer and a criminal and I take issue with that. I know that it’s all harmless fun, but why such a graphic subject matter?

I guess I just don’t see the appeal of killing everyone in sight. In games where you could make a choice between being good and evil I always chose good. KOTOR 1 and 2, Fable, Mass Effect all these games I chose the noble route and never had any temptation to do the evil things that these games allow you to do, but I guess that’s just the kind of guy I am.

That said I do love Gears of War, but you even that’s different than GTA. In Gears of War your fighting for survival. Your fighting a war and for a noble cause.

Sure it’s gory and bloody and uber violent, but essentially you are still doing a noble thing. In the game your risking your lives to the survival of the human race. It does not get any more selfless or heroic than that folks.

I like you Keyser Soze always try and maintain an air of maturity and etiquette. Like I said before the Internet is simply another excuse for people to be nasty to each other without any consequences. To many people on the internet the individual on the other end of the screen is not a real person. They don't have feelings or ideas and as far as their concerned they don't deserve the decency and respect you would give a person you were face to face with.

Ok now on the cynical fans and this elitist snobbish attitude that I also see a lot of. This also bugs me greatly.

Like you said if something is popular and well received. Fan boys reject it simply because it’s too popular and they want to maintain this artsy fartsy Indie mentality. Never mind the fact that it might actually be good.

Fans who hate everything. UGH!! All they do is complain about everything. I actually know people who did not go see The Dark Knight just because it was too popular. This snobbish holier than thou attitude really irks me.

This elitist attitude needs to stop. I’ve been the victim of this kind of discrimination. I was at a comic book store one and I was asking some questions about comics and stuff. These guys were merciless. They were patronizing and overly sarcastic. They laughed at me.

This was the worst experience I ever had. I am also excited by the fact that comic books are becoming more mainstream and I welcome all people to join in. I encourage everyone. I don’t ostracize anyone.

How could anyone hate the fact that comics are becoming popular? I guess some fan boys enjoyed being out casts and now that more people are getting into comics they don’t like their little exclusive club becoming more acceptable.

Bunch of loosers.

You know I posted this exact topic on the Marvel comics forum. I'm a equal Marvel and DC fan I like them both just about the same. This is why I posted this there as well. It sort of all fell apart on me and my point seemed to have been lost as if they could care less of the point I was trying to make.

I don't know what this means, but go and check it out. Judge for yourselves. http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=312369

 

[Keyser Soze]

If you're worried about comics becoming too dark, and heroes becoming too morally ambiguous, a comic I strongly recommend you pick up (if you haven't already) is All-Star Superman. The series has now finished, but you can get issues 1-6 in trade form.

In this comic, Grant Morrison goes back to Superman just being an inherently good person, and really making that goodness a focal point. And it actually feels almost revolutionary, once again having a superhero who is so... heroic.

 

[Aristotle]

Yeah, isn't it ****ed up how revolutionary that felt?

 

[Whirlysplat]

Evan Alan Moore admits how silly the Dark comics he wrote were. Even though we all love them.

 

[The Question]

Evan Alan Moore admits how silly the Dark comics he wrote were. Even though we all love them.

He doesn't "admit" they're silly. What he says is silly is all the people who tried to follow in his footsteps, thinking that they'd match the quality of stuff like V and Watchmen by making them just as grim and nasty, without actually bothering to have good stories, themes, or characters, which is what actually made V and Watchmen great. The grimness was just a by product of the particular stories Moore was writing, not what made his writing good.

 

[Whirlysplat]

He doesn't "admit" they're silly. What he says is silly is all the people who tried to follow in his footsteps, thinking that they'd match the quality of stuff like V and Watchmen by making them just as grim and nasty, without actually bothering to have good stories, themes, or characters, which is what actually made V and Watchmen great. The grimness was just a by product of the particular stories Moore was writing, not what made his writing good.

Actually no. I saw him at a signing about three weeks ago. He said that all superhero comics were silly and even stated he was very angry when he wrote them in the 80's and how unfortunate it had spawned a genre that the industry was still working through.

He then went on to talk about the novel he is writing about Northampton and Melinda talked about her dislike of many Americans despite being an American. If a transcript is ever released I will point to it.

Oh, he also talked about magic and Lost girls.

 

[The Question]

Actually no. I saw him at a signing about three weeks ago. He said that all superhero comics were silly and even stated he was very angry when he wrote them in the 80's and how unfortunate it had spawned a genre that the industry was still working through.

He then went on to talk about the novel he is writing about Northampton and Melinda talked about her dislike of many Americans despite being an American. If a transcript is ever released I will point to it.

Oh, he also talked about magic and Lost girls.

That sounds more or less like what I said.

 

[Whirlysplat]

That sounds more or less like what I said.

More like less. Because he is not very proud of them and thinks they are poor. Fact is, Watchmen was a rip off of a book called Superfolks written in 1977.