Superheroes and cynical Fans

[Whirlysplat]

Which are pretty common ideas used in characterization in a lot of fiction. And they weren't even what Watchmen was about. The main themes of Watchmen were morals, responsibility, and power.

Thats some of the themes. However many would consider that breaking a few eggs to make an omlette and history kills truth were the main ones.

I've also heard it argued it's a story about the messiah complex.

Let's be honest as John Byrne said, it stops being serious when a genetically engineered, psychic brain is teleported.

I have never heard Moore speak critically of V for Vendetta. What exactly did he say he didn't like about it?

Lots of stuff, he said he now understands it could never happen in the U.K. because civil writes have been eroded and we have big brother here, however it is a camp big brother.

 

[The Question]

Thats some of the themes. However many would consider that breaking a few eggs to make an omlette and history kills truth were the main ones.

I've also heard it argued it's a story about the messiah complex.

Let's be honest as John Byrne said, it stops being serious when a genetically engineered, psychic brain is teleported.

I disagree with that. The themes and story remain very serious, even if they're conveyed through ridiculous concepts. That's one of the staples of science-fiction: using the absurd to convey a message that is very, very serious in an easy to swallow manner.

Lots of stuff, he said he now understands it could never happen in the U.K. because civil writes have been eroded and we have big brother here, however it is a camp big brother.

I don't understand. You said he doesn't think a totalitarian regime could happen in the UK, but then you talk about how the UK is experiencing lessened civil liberties and a more controlling government.

 

[Whirlysplat]

I don't understand. You said he doesn't think a totalitarian regime could happen in the UK, but then you talk about how the UK is experiencing lessened civil liberties and a more controlling government.

You have to live here to understand I guess. Basically or beurocracy is incompetant.

 

[The Question]

You have to live here to understand I guess. Basically or beurocracy is incompetant.

Yes. And? I'm sorry, I'm just not following. What does that have to do with V's literary merits?

 

[Whirlysplat]

Yes. And? I'm sorry, I'm just not following. What does that have to do with V's literary merits?

Moore was angry in the 80's like a lot of us in the U.K. V is something he considers childish now, because he understands the world better and is more grown up.

 

[The Question]

Moore was angry in the 80's like a lot of us in the U.K. V is something he considers childish now, because he understands the world better and is more grown up.

Well, that I understand. But I still don't exactly get why he considers it childish today. I mean, you said it's because the totalitarian idea presented in the story would still be carried out by incompetent bureaucrats. I don't really get how that would make the story childish.

 

[trustyside-kick]

That doesn't make sense. Just because the world is a "better place" than what he thought when he wrote the book, he is calling his own work childish?

That just doesn't make sense.

 

[Whirlysplat]

He considers all comic books childish. He also stated his theory as to why they were so popular in America compared to the rest of the world.

 

[The Question]

He considers all comic books childish. He also stated his theory as to why they were so popular in America compared to the rest of the world.

If he thinks all comic books are childish, then why is it the main medium he's worked in and has continued to work in for his entire career? Throughout his career, he's written one novel and one screenplay. That's it. If his opinion of comics is so low, then why in the hell would he choose to work in the medium to this day?

Also, comics are popular all over the world. American comics are popular in the U.S. because, well, they're American. European comics, like Tintin and Asterix, are very popular over in Europe, and are in fact more popular worldwide than any American comic. And comic books are absolutely huge in Japan and elsewhere in Asia right now.

 

[Whirlysplat]

If he thinks all comic books are childish, then why is it the main medium he's worked in and has continued to work in for his entire career? Throughout his career, he's written one novel and one screenplay. That's it. If his opinion of comics is so low, then why in the hell would he choose to work in the medium to this day?

Also, comics are popular all over the world. American comics are popular in the U.S. because, well, they're American. European comics, like Tintin and Asterix, are very popular over in Europe, and are in fact more popular worldwide than any American comic. And comic books are absolutely huge in Japan and elsewhere in Asia right now.

He thinks tights and fights comics are popular in America because america likes the bully mentality. It believes might makes right. paraphrased from Moore.

 

[The Question]

He thinks tights and fights comics are popular in America because america likes the bully mentality. It believes might makes right. paraphrased from Moore.

Well, that wasn't exactly what you said. Anyway, I think that makes a certain amount of sense, and certainly may be an aspect of the appeal, although I don't think it's the sole reason.

 

[Whirlysplat]

Well, that wasn't exactly what you said. Anyway, I think that makes a certain amount of sense, and certainly may be an aspect of the appeal, although I don't think it's the sole reason.

It is what I said. You just misunderstood. It's not a problem.

 

[Anubis]

....What the f**k is TinTin and Asterix?

 

[Kitsune]

....What the f**k is TinTin and Asterix?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventures_of_Tintin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterix

 

[Whirlysplat]

....What the f**k is TinTin and Asterix?

Great comics.

The old Tintin cartoons are well worth watching.

 

[Kitsune]

He considers all comic books childish. He also stated his theory as to why they were so popular in America compared to the rest of the world.

Like Japan?

 

[Whirlysplat]

Like Japan?

Japanese comics are not the same as U.S.

 

[Aristotle]

....What the f**k is TinTin and Asterix?

How did you never read Tintin?

 

[Aristotle]

Let's be honest as John Byrne said, it stops being serious when a genetically engineered, psychic brain is teleported.

Oh and next he'll remind us that, hey, "they're all imaginary stories." He'll say a few more things that degrade superhero comic books and their lowly fans, all to separate himself from the fandom that he is, inextricably, a part of. When I talk about self-loathing comic book fans, this is what the **** I'm talking about.

Ladies and gentlemen, give it up for Whirlysplat!

 

[Aristotle]

I would like you to explain how it's close to 100%. Because, I honestly don't see it. Yes, there are plenty of dark and grim and cynical stories out there, in comics and books and movies and on TV. See 'em all the time. But I also see plenty of stories that make you think about what's good in the world and what we have to be happy about. Maybe they is more of a lean towards the grim. But from where I'm sitting, I don't see it being anywhere near close to 100%

I'd love to hear about all these non-postmodern stories you see out there. Because I can almost guarantee you, my answer will be one of two things for each of them: 1) The example is so overly maudlin and sappy that no one ever takes it seriously or learns anything from it, or 2) It's a lot more postmodern than you think.

Also, I would argue that a ark and grim story full of moral ambiguities, when well written, is just as inspiring as a well written story full of stalwart heroes and happy fun times. Because a well written story that's full of darkness, generally speaking of course, is saying to the reader "Hey. Stop and look at the world. This is what it is. Maybe you should think about the hows and whys of it for a few minutes." It teaches us about the horrors of the world so we can do something about it. Both types of story try to inspire the same kind of action through separate means.

Oh you must be joking. Rhetorically, analytically, that's not what they say and that's not what they achieve. No one comes away with that listen. A survey somewhere said that after seeing Syriana, moviegoers were more apathetic about changing the government. Looking into the abyss and watching it stare back only makes us more fearful of challenging it, more resigned to its reign.

If he thinks all comic books are childish, then why is it the main medium he's worked in and has continued to work in for his entire career?

Because, like Whirlysplat, he's a victim of the self-loathing mentality. He wants so badly to be accepted and mainstreamed that he'll completely repudiate anything he does, ironically detaching himself from it, and therefore inoculating himself from criticism. Sad, but predictable.

 

[Whirlysplat]

Because, like Whirlysplat, he's a victim of the self-loathing mentality. He wants so badly to be accepted and mainstreamed that he'll completely repudiate anything he does, ironically detaching himself from it, and therefore inoculating himself from criticism. Sad, but predictable.

Nah, Moore and I are grown ups.

 

[Anubis]

How did you never read Tintin?

That's the one with that toe headed kid and the dog right? I thought it was lame like Archie or Blondie and Dagwood, so I ignored it. Guess now I gotta check it out..... More s**t to buy.

 

[Aristotle]

Nah, download it. You'll feel better about yourself. Piracy FTW.

 

[Anubis]

I just went to Youtube to check out some of the old cartoons and some British dudes dubbed all over the show with lots of curse words and British slang.....it's effin' hilarious.

 

[The Question]

I'd love to hear about all these non-postmodern stories you see out there. Because I can almost guarantee you, my answer will be one of two things for each of them: 1) The example is so overly maudlin and sappy that no one ever takes it seriously or learns anything from it, or 2) It's a lot more postmodern than you think.

What exactly is your definition of the term postmodern? I hear a lot of people use it in a lot of different ways.

Oh you must be joking. Rhetorically, analytically, that's not what they say and that's not what they achieve. No one comes away with that listen. A survey somewhere said that after seeing Syriana, moviegoers were more apathetic about changing the government. Looking into the abyss and watching it stare back only makes us more fearful of challenging it, more resigned to its reign.

So simply ignoring it is the way to go?

Because, like Whirlysplat, he's a victim of the self-loathing mentality. He wants so badly to be accepted and mainstreamed that he'll completely repudiate anything he does, ironically detaching himself from it, and therefore inoculating himself from criticism. Sad, but predictable.

I was using a question to deconstruct Whirly's logic, not actually asking a question.