The Jesus Christ Appreciation and Worship Thread - Part 1

[rodhulk]

The gospel passages about “the Son of Man coming on the clouds” (Mark 13:26, 14:62, for example and Thessalonians 4:16-17) are about Jesus’ vindication, his “coming” to heaven from earth. The parables about a returning king or master (for example, Luke 19:11-27) were originally about God returning to Jerusalem, not about Jesus returning to earth.

But just as important...Paul was writing specifically to the Thessalonians at this time because they were led to believe that when Christians died before the return of Christ they would miss out on seeing the Kingdom fully realized on earth (this is why it's important to read scripture with historical context)

The entire point of the scripture is that the dead will not miss out on the resurrection as they originally thought. He was using scripture and phrases they would understand (cloud symbolism) to teach and correct them. It's easy to see how so many here in western culture had misunderstood that scripture. You really need to have some knowledge of OT word pictures, first century ideas of imperial coronations (crowning of kings), and an awareness of second temple Judaism to understand the imagery Paul uses in this passage.


The language of Jesus coming on clouds and everyone going up to meet him, should not be understood literally, but should instead be seen as a powerful image of divine kingship.
In the first century, kings would return to the city victorious from battle and be paraded back into his city.
You will recall that they actually did this to Jesus on Palm Sunday. The striking contrast is that Jesus was riding on a donkey, not a white horse; he didn’t have an army, only a hopeful crowd of peaceful followers and fans.

The trumpets blasting indicate a victorious procession and anthem upon Christ’s return (v. 16). The clouds should rightfully be understood as exalting Christ as divine. In both the Old and New Testaments the cloud(s) speak of divinity—God’s presence.

You see this with the cloud by day which led the Hebrews out of Egypt, the cloud on Mt. Sinai that surrounded Moses when receiving the Law, the clouds of the Son of Man in Dan 7:13, the cloud enveloping Jesus during his transfiguration, and now here with the return of Christ.

Jesus will literally “come down from heaven” (God’s space), not literally float down from cumulus clouds, but a hidden dimension altogether.
The purpose of the dead rising to “meet the Lord in the air” is to mix the metaphors (as it were) in presenting this picture of a divine king coming to his city and being paraded back (to earth in this case) by his people. It’s a beautiful image that ancient readers would have understood.

I disagree.

First and as per Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, we read in Acts 1:9-11, The disciples are told by an angel that Jesus will return the way they saw him go and they literally saw Jesus go up and was hid by a literal cloud. This is literal. In the same way, Jesus must return literally in the same way as he left from Acts 1:9-11 which is exactly what Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 tells us, Jesus' return to earth (not heaven) is in the clouds.

As per your idea of his people meeting "Jesus in the clouds" actually being his people just parading him back..... I can't spiritualize this like that. Better words could have been used that would have suggested what you believe, that the words used should have suggested his people gathering "on their own" and "in the land" rather than the clouds and as Matthew 24:31 tells us, it should not have said the angels would gather us. My first paragraph above helps to understand this, that it is Jesus literally returning to earth and his people as being gathered in the clouds by angels.




To add, there are too many signs that Jesus is to return in the clouds as per Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, and Acts 1:9-11 such as Jesus' return to Israel to fight the nations and the Mount Of Olives splits in Zechariah 14 (and Jesus restores the kingdom to Israel). I know you don't believe Israel is still chosen by God and I suppose you use that OT scripture from Joshua that says God fulfilled everything for the Jews. But a clear reading tells us this is as per the land (or Law Covenant) and not the Abrahamic Covenant. The Abrahamic Covenant is unconditional but the Law Covenant is conditional. What I am saying is that God fulfilled his part of the Law Covenant as God did give the Jews all the land that he promised. The Jews, however, failed to take possession of all the land and allowed some people to remain in parts of the land. Not just that but the promises in the Abrahamic Covenant are unconditional, the covenant is unilateral and is to be fulfilled by God, and these promises are to be everlasting. This "everlasting" part could not have been fulfilled back in Joshua's time because it could only be under the term "fulfilling" or "under fulfillment" as "everlasting" does not end. These are just a couple of reasons why Israel is still a people and nation before God. I can provide scriptures to back this position up. And not just that but are you familiar with Amos 9:14-15 (this was written after the statement that God had fulfilled everything for the Jew that we read in the book of Joshua), Amos 9:14-15 makes it clear that Israel will be a nation again and for "everlasting" this time. I believe this began in 1948 and I mentioned this previously to you and can again if you would like. Also a very important note back in the Joshua account, the Jews failed to take position of the land as it was conditional at that time on the Jews obedience, but as per the Abrahamic Covenant, it is all God and so where the Jews failed back in Joshua to take possession of all the land, Jesus (or God) will succeed at the Zechariah 14 account where the Lord Jesus (God) will do it himself and I doubt he will hesitate to take possession of all the land. Think about that, my friend. There are so many things that have happened in Israel as per prophecy fulfilment that one cannot overlook this.

 

[Destructus86]

I disagree.

First and as per Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, we read in Acts 1:9-11, The disciples are told by an angel that Jesus will return the way they saw him go and they literally saw Jesus go up and was hid by a literal cloud. This is literal. In the same way, Jesus must return literally in the same way as he left from Acts 1:9-11 which is exactly what Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 tells us, Jesus' return to earth (not heaven) is in the clouds.

Actually. I would like to stop you right there with Acts 1:9-11. It says he will return the same we he left. He is returning (if we literalize it) on a white horse. He didn't leave on a white horse. So he's not returning literally the same way he left. Which means if it's literal...it's a contradiction. However, because it is spiritual it makes perfect sense. You say it's literal. But you have nothing except your assumption to believe that. Where as by reading it the way it was meant to be read provides a great number of proofs through out the bible for symbolic meanings.

Also...keep in mind that Matthew 24 is an event that already occurred. It is a precise description of the events in 70 ad and the judgement over the Jews. Nearly every major theologian agrees with this.

 

[rodhulk]

Actually. I would like to stop you right there with Acts 1:9-11. It says he will return the same we he left. He is returning (if we literalize it) on a white horse. He didn't leave on a white horse. So he's not returning literally the same way he left. Which means if it's literal...it's a contradiction. However, because it is spiritual it makes perfect sense. You say it's literal. But you have nothing except your assumption to believe that. Where as by reading it the way it was meant to be read provides a great number of proofs through out the bible for symbolic meanings.

Also...keep in mind that Matthew 24 is an event that already occurred. It is a precise description of the events in 70 ad and the judgement over the Jews. Nearly every major theologian agrees with this.

Actually, if you understood the return of Jesus, you would understand what Acts 1:9-11 means in conjunction with other scriptures. The "literal" fashion is that he is returning in the same way meaning in the clouds and down to earth. Other scriptures (such as your white horse) tells us exactly how he will approach the earth in his return such as on a white horse and with many angels. All Acts 1:9-11 is telling us is Jesus will return the same way he left, in the clouds, exactly what we read in Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

In fact and to just show you how interesting this all is, Acts 1:12 tells us they were at the Mount Of Olives and Zechariah 14:3-4 tells us that when the Lord (Jesus) returns to restore Israel (see all of Zechariah 14), his feet will land on the Mount Of Olives and it will split. What makes this of greater interest is that in Acts 1:6-7, the followers asked Jesus if he was going to restore the kingdom to Israel. Jesus answered that it is not the time yet, that they were not to know the time of Israel's restoration but that indeed it would happen. And why would the followers ask Jesus about him restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time? Because as just mentioned, they were all standing their feet on the Mount Of Olives (Jesus too) and Zechariah 14:3-4 tells us the Lord (who would be Jesus) lands his feet literally on the Mount Of Olives and the mountain splits. So, Jesus' return should be in the manner that he left, he will return on the clouds and then float/fly down to the Mount Of Olives where he will land his feet on the mountain which will then split. Not hard to understand at all.

You say I am only using my assumption but so are you, my friend.

You say the Jews were judged by/in 70 AD and you are correct... but what this was was the Land or Law Covenant where the Jews were simply being punished (as they had before) for disobeying God and they were being punished with exile from the land, exactly what God said would happen to Israel when they disobeyed him. But this Law or Land Covenant always said that the Jews would return to their land when they obeyed God. In fact, scripture even said that Israel would one day return from "all over the earth" and for the first time in 1948, this occurred when the Jews, from all over the world, could return to their own land under their own sovereign rule (see Isaiah 11:11-12 about the Jews returning from "all over the earth" and for a "second time," the first time was the return from the Babylonian captivity but that first time was not from all over the world). Not just that but if you understand the scriptures, they show us that the original return to the land from Babylon was done in phases, so it should come as no surprise that the second return to the land would be in phases, the first phase for judgement and to purge the dross from Israel and the second phase - to return/be in the land in belief. We are obviously under the first phase at present time and have been since 1948. I can copy and paste a rather long but important message on all this with all relevant scriptures if you wish.

And how could Matthew 24 have ever occurred? Where was Jesus "paraded" back to earth as you say? When was Matthew 24:15 fulfilled? When was this 7 year peace treaty of Daniel 9 that Matthew 24:15 is referring to? Where was it split in the middle? Why has no antichrist died of non human means (the antichrist you assume was the antichrist back then died by suicide - This is not what the Bible says about the antichrist's fate). This can go on and on.....

You say nearly every major theologian agrees with your take of Matthew 24. Yet I can show you lists of leading Christians, theologians, biblical scholars, etc.... who believe we are in the end times now and that Matthew 24 is under fulfillment now. Here is 101 pieces of evidence that we are in the end times now with many references to various things from Matthew 24: http://www.raptureforums.com/BibleProphecy/101lastdays.cfm

I expect literal fulfillments of Jesus' second coming (including on the clouds and to the Mount Of Olives where he ascended from - and I expect a literal rapture) just as the literal fulfillments of his first coming - Here are some examples:

There are at least 333 prophecies of the First Coming of Christ that were literally fulfilled. Look at some of the fulfilled prophecies of the First Coming.

1. Isaiah 7:14 Born of a virgin
2. Micah 5:2 At Bethlehem
3. Jeremiah 31:15 Slaughter of children
4. Hosea 11:1 Called out of Egypt
5. Zechariah 9:9 Entry into Jerusalem
6. Isaiah 11:2 Anointed with the Spirit
7. Psalms 69:21 Gall and vinegar
8. Exodus 12:46 & Psalms 34:20 Not a bone broken
9. Isaiah 53 Death, Burial, Resurrection
Christ became sin for us
Forgiveness through his death
10. Daniel 9:24-27 Date of First Coming
11. Isaiah 9:6 God taking on human flesh
12. Psalm 41:9; 55:12-14 Betrayed by a friend
13. Zechariah 13:7 Disciples forsake Him
14. Zechariah 11:12 Sold for 30 pieces of silver
15. Zechariah 11:13 Potter's field
16. Isaiah 50:6 Spit on and scourged
17. Psalms 22:16 Hands and feet pierced
18. Psalms 22:18 Garments parted
Lots cast


EDIT: Just to edit this in, I apologize if I seem a little hard. It's not meant that way at all. Blessings.

 

[charl_huntress]

I just want to thank you guys for keeping this thread going. I don't post often, but I often read the scripture and good words.

Kudos!

 

[rodhulk]

I just want to thank you guys for keeping this thread going. I don't post often, but I often read the scripture and good words.

Kudos!

Nice to see you reading scripture, charl! It is the word of God (2 Timothy 3:16, Acts 17:11). Blessings.

 

[Human Torch]

John 20:-24-29

Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

 

[herolee10]

I've been meaning to post this here, but in case if anyone is interested....

Out of ALL of the live-action bible films that have featured Jesus, in some form, I feel like this film "The Greatest Story Ever Told" takes top place when it comes to how they've portrayed/filmed the sequence involving Jesus ascending back to heaven.

Start at the 0:47 Second Mark...


DIRECT LINK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mQAT3u8pXA&index=30&list=FLNEbRloMQM4Wo6YpzDrY0bg

 

[Human Torch]

Yeah.Very few films even attempt to show the Ascension.Particularly back in the day it was probably difficult to stage for the camera.

 

[herolee10]

Yeah.Very few films even attempt to show the Ascension.Particularly back in the day it was probably difficult to stage for the camera.

Agreed; and even for the films that have shown the "Ascension" scene in some format, I feel like they were poor attempts when compared to the one that I just posted above.

I wonder if anyone will ever make a big scale film that revolves around the Rapture and the 7 year period that comes afterwards, along with showing Jesus's eventual return?

I really don't count the "Left Behind" series as serious attempts tbh.lol I mean you would think that with all of the films that we have about the coming of the anti-christ, that we would have one about the return of Christ.

The closest thing that we've gotten to that is from "Omen: Final Conflict", featuring Sam Neil as the adult Anti-christ from the original omen series and even that wasn't really faithful to how the rapture has been said would play out.

 

[Destructus86]

What is everyone's thoughts on these new "Beer Churches" popping up?

I think the concept is interesting. Despite the name "church" being used sometimes it appears to be more of a place for drink and fellowship, sit down have a pint and discuss God and theology. In that...I think it's great. And in fact the theological conversations get really good from what I hear.

However, if it were to replace your actual church going I think it could be a problem. By that I mean that actual church should have a separate place from the casual hang out vibe. While it to is a place of fellowship I think churches as organizations are more about serving the community with larger resources than any one person or small group can do alone and coming together to sing in worship is always a good thing.

 

[E. Bison]

It is pretty obvious why they are doing it. Churches are losing memberships and revenue as a result of loss of membership. So this is just another gimmick they have come up with to attract membership and raise revenue up again. It is only for money and not spiritual growth.

 

[Warhammer]

I wish you had posted M. Bison pictures in your posts.

 

[E. Bison]

I decided to retire the Bison persona. Better to quit while on top than to quit because it doesn't matter anymore.

 

[Warhammer]

I respect that. Anyways, welcome back.

 

[Destructus86]

Praise God that the true King even now sits on his Heavenly Throne! Thank you, Lord.

 

[charl_huntress]

Praise Him!

 

[Persistence]

He is Worthy to Be Praised - The Voices of Inner Peace
[YT]7Q-LeAGbEWA[/YT]

 

[charl_huntress]

I can't see the vid. Yet, I think I should warn you. Be prepared to be called "Percy".

I hope everyone is having a blessed day. I'm off to walk the doggie.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

I been involved in the church and consider myself a Christian all my life. But life has been extremely hard for me in the last four years after finishing college and I am stuggling to remain my faith. My situation is that I am 26 years old with like 200 dollars in my saving and NEVER had a full time job despite my soild resume and experience. All I have gotten is part time/ temporary work. I recently got an interview for a dream job with a well known media outlet but today got the rejection call. I don't know how to recover from this expecially when I seen non believers doing better than me and getting handed jobs etc. I am angry and bitter, but I suppose I am just asking you all for prayer...

 

[Persistence]

sorry, fixed the video now

 

[charl_huntress]

I been involved in the church and consider myself a Christian all my life. But life has been extremely hard for me in the last four years after finishing college and I am stuggling to remain my faith. My situation is that I am 26 years old with like 200 dollars in my saving and NEVER had a full time job despite my soild resume and experience. All I have gotten is part time/ temporary work. I recently got an interview for a dream job with a well known media outlet but today the rejection call. I don't know how to recovery from this expecially when I seen non believers doing better than me and get hand jobs etc. I am angry and bitter, but I suppose I am just asking you all for prayer...

I just saw this before I was about leave, so I thought I would respond. I too went through a crisis like that when life only seemed to be giving me sour grapes. That was the biggest crisis of my faith because I felt like if I'm for Jesus...why is he not with me now when I need him most? My father sent me this quote and I hold it close to my heart.

“For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost to him/her, nor is he/she ever lost to Me.”

My prayers are with you and remember you are never alone.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

I just saw this before I was about leave, so I thought I would respond. I too went through a crisis like that when life only seemed to be giving me sour grapes. That was the biggest crisis of my faith because I felt like if I'm for Jesus...why is he not with me now when I need him most? My father sent me this quote and I hold it close to my heart.

“For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost to him/her, nor is he/she ever lost to Me.”

My prayers are with you and remember you are never alone.

Appreciate that.

 

[Persistence]

I'll send a prayer your way ShadowBoxer. I too had a period of rough underemployment after graduating college...during 2007 crash. I understand feeling where you feel cramped and surrounded by all sides like there is now way out. It is during this period when everything and everyone else seems to fail or disappoint you, that God demonstrates that He is supreme and only He can pull you out of the pit. He is a preparing a reward for enduring faith but it only comes through placing your full trust on His promises, despite what appearances or worldy circumstances. It is at this moment, you understand He is the one who pulled through for you...and nobody else. Your future success with Him is a certainty but you need to internalize that for it to come to fruition.

2 Corinthians 5:7
For We Walk By Faith, Not By Sight.

We wish you all the best.

 

[Persistence]

ShadowBoxer, if you haven't already....try LinkedIn, Monster, Indeed.com, CareerBuilder.com. Try your college networking resource and give them your resume. Consider mailing your resume to friends, family, professors, people you've worked in with past. Sometimes cold mailing helps if you see someone on Linkedin or maybe even facebook (but keep it professional). Try networking centers. Keep faith, don't be too proud to ask for help anywhere. God will create that bridge. Best of luck.

 

[charl_huntress]

ShadowBoxer, I would also suggesting interning somewhere. I know that seems crazy, but I have so many friends who took that chance and were rewarded with great jobs with good income. Another thing is having a qualified career resource specialist review your resume. You can find these individuals through your college career center, or from the state you reside...and often times for free. They can give you tips on improving your resume and very helpful advice on interviewing and all that. I did several mock interviews with a career specialist when I exited the Navy and it was the BEST thing I EVER did.

Don't give up is what I'm saying. Don't give up and stay strong and faithful.