The Return of Cloak & Dagger

[Johnny Drama]

So have I.

It's not anything special but it's not terrible...

 

[TheCorpulent1]

It was to me. I didn't like it.

 

[Dread]

Awwww

Web of Spider-Man 82. Man Mountain Marko... one of my first comics ever (number 5 I believe).

R.I.P.

Yay for nostalgia.

Man Mountain Marko's problem was likely choosing opponents who were WAY above him. His gimmick was superhuman strength via various steroids or hormone treatments, only his strength was never to an exceptionally high degree. Plus, while he was strong, he didn't have superhuman toughness or stamina. He's one of many rogues who likely would have had more success picking on Daredevil, like Kingpin chose to.

 

[Manic]

Looking back on Marko's appearance in Alias, it doesn't even look like he's hurting her as he's choking her. He's got his hands around her neck, and she can still speak clearly enough to ask him questions. Then when she's got enough information, she beats the crap out of him with minimal effort.

He really was on the lower bracket of super strong characters, wasn't he?

 

[Dread]

Looking back on Marko's appearance in Alias, it doesn't even look like he's hurting her as he's choking her. He's got his hands around her neck, and she can still speak clearly enough to ask him questions. Then when she's got enough information, she beats the crap out of him with minimal effort.

He really was on the lower bracket of super strong characters, wasn't he?

Keep in mind, ALIAS was written by Bendis. Absolutely NOTHING ever stops a character from talking a lot in a BENDIS comic. Not choking, not death, not danger, not the universe imploding, not being pistol-raped, absolutely nothing prevents them from speaking many 3-5 line sentences over and over with all the finesse of someone hitting COPY & PASTE and then adding a word to the beginning or end.

And, also, uh, Jewel actually had some sort of enhanced durability, I thought. So, yeah, minor super-strength will only get you so far.

 

[NightBeetle]

From ''Evolution Revolution Part 2'' with Matt Fraction

http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=21916

Cloak and Dagger made sense because they’re such terrific characters and bringing them back, brushing them off and putting them here was a lot of fun. Both of their power sets are great and this is an opportunity to use them in a way we’ve not seen in awhile. What happens when you take these perpetual runaways and force them to be part of a team?

http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=21868

Dark X-Men: The Beginning” features Cloak and Dagger, a superhero duo that shies away from from the bigger events of the Marvel Universe. One of Cornell’s important stories C&D into the larger pools of team membership and the Marvel U’s biggest event, Dark Reign. “I've been a reader of those two since their first appearance,” Cornell explained. “Their committed stance, their own war on drugs, makes them a tremendous contrast to Osborn's murky aims and methods. Or perhaps it doesn't as much as they thought it did. I like how together they are, how they look after each other in a dangerous world. They have a kind of mutual womb they can retreat to. Which doesn't make them entirely adults, and that's interesting too.”
When it was announced that Cloak and Dagger would be among the ranks of the Dark X-Men, readers wondered why the heroes would be willing to work for someone like Norman Osborn.

In the world of Osborn’s Dark Reign, decisions like that aren’t made lightly. Indeed, Cornell’s Cloak and Dagger story is essentially about making tough decisions. “There is, as always with Osborn, a carrot and a stick,” he said. “They're given some good reasons, like support for their own aims, why they'll fit right in. And then there's the dirty great gun to the head, which I won't go into the details of here. Osborn really rather knows he has them as soon as he steps out in front of them. And they offer him great value, in terms of image and powers.”
For Cornell, writing interesting characters has only been half of the fun of working on “Dark X-Men: The Beginning.” The other half has been the chance to work with the artists Marvel has lined up for the project, like his “Captain Britain& MI13” collaborator Leonard Kirk. “We are back working together again! It's a great pleasure to see what he's coming out with, and I'm glad we didn't get split up. For the sake of the kids,” Cornell laughed.

 

[Dread]

Wait...Cloak and Dagger are on Osborn's Dark X-Men because they were "former drug addicts"? Really!? By that logic, Iron Man should join the Sinister Six because he is a former alcoholic and despot. And hey, abusing steroids has created many an American military champion in Marvel, but I guess if you mix in a little radiation and call it a "serum", it sounds better. Besides, unless I am mistaken or missed some stories, I don't remember Tandy and Ty being "drug addicts"; they were runaways naively tricked into taking shelter with drug dealers who used them to try out a new heroin; by FORCE. Y'know how drug commercials usually claim something like, "no one holds a gun/knife to you and forces you to take drugs"? Well, that happened to Tandy and Ty.

It would have been more logical to have them socially branded as "fugitives" because they aided Cap's Secret Avengers during the CIVIL WAR and never registered; basically akin to Prodigy's problem in AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE; a hero who became seen as a "villain" due to picking the wrong side in CW and hardly feeling the need to apologize for doing so. Or even "harboring" unregistered kid heroes like the Runaways, who of course have the rep of being the offspring of the crime cartel, the Pride. Anything but "drug addicts". I don't think mobsters forcing you to be injected with a drug that they all but assume will kill you one time makes you an addict. But then again this is the same Marvel that finds it perfectly acceptable to portray their "heroes" as violent, merciless, and at times sexist and even dead-beat fathers, but smoking becomes taboo.

 

[Red Mask]

I didn't know they were former drug addicts. I thought they were just runaways who got transformed by experimental drugs.

 

[Dread]

I didn't know they were former drug addicts. I thought they were just runaways who got transformed by experimental drugs.

They were. Hence my above rant.

Fraction's usually a solid writer, doing good work on IMMORTAL IRON FIST, THE ORDER, various THOR one-shot's, and usually on INVINCIBLE IRON MAN (if not decompressed). So far with his X-Men work, though, I've heard he's been hit or miss.

 

[JewishHobbit]

He's been miss 100% of the time sadly.

 

[Specter313]

No, the Sisterhood arc was a bit blah, but just about everything else that came before it was quite good, and the one shot right after the Sisterhood was very well done as well, aside from the art.

 

[Dread]

I believe it says something when some 2-3 normally solid writers like Fraction, Brubaker, Carey, and others struggle to write the major X-Men books since M-Day. Usually they either try and fail to work around it, or they ignore it. I get the feeling that there is a silent belief that M-Day has strangled many X-Men stories in the cradle and makes them difficult to pull off (one recent story involves a mutant riot in San Fran; but under 200 mutants in one place is barely a clam bake, let along a riot). There may be few ways to get stories out of M-Day besides attempts to reverse it, but it, like the Parker Marriage, was one of Joe Q's "genie's" that he wanted to put back in bottles, so it can't be undone. The result is an X-Men franchise that has lost quite a bit of steam. For an EIC who often belittles "ignorant fanboys" who "fear change", Joe Q's biggest EIC moves have usually been to satisfy his own fanboy heart with little regard to impact or results, and an inability to see when such moves have produced less than spectacular results. But I digress.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

On the other hand, Fraction did basically bring his Five Fists of Science storytelling to the X-Men in the form of Beast's science squad. Can't go wrong there.

 

[Mr. Green]

I believe it says something when some 2-3 normally solid writers like Fraction, Brubaker, Carey, and others struggle to write the major X-Men books since M-Day. Usually they either try and fail to work around it, or they ignore it. I get the feeling that there is a silent belief that M-Day has strangled many X-Men stories in the cradle and makes them difficult to pull off (one recent story involves a mutant riot in San Fran; but under 200 mutants in one place is barely a clam bake, let along a riot). There may be few ways to get stories out of M-Day besides attempts to reverse it, but it, like the Parker Marriage, was one of Joe Q's "genie's" that he wanted to put back in bottles, so it can't be undone. The result is an X-Men franchise that has lost quite a bit of steam. For an EIC who often belittles "ignorant fanboys" who "fear change", Joe Q's biggest EIC moves have usually been to satisfy his own fanboy heart with little regard to impact or results, and an inability to see when such moves have produced less than spectacular results. But I digress.

M-Day didn't strangle anything. First of all, X-Factor.

Second, getting rid of all the mutants except for the ones that actually matter? Good call, IMO.

And third, maybe Fraction and Co are having a hard time because they aren't that good. Punisher War Journal? Yeah. WORST FRANK CASTLE EVER. He said, "Holy Mastercard." Yeah. I'm surprised he even got the chance to write anything else. He sucks.

And Brubaker rocks and all but he's not really that great on the X titles. Case-in-point, Deadly Genesis.

 

[Tron Bonne]

And third, maybe Fraction and Co are having a hard time because they aren't that good. Punisher War Journal? Yeah. WORST FRANK CASTLE EVER. He said, "Holy Mastercard." Yeah. I'm surprised he even got the chance to write anything else. He sucks..

That's only one thing he's done though. His stuff like Casanova, Iron Fist and Five Fists Of Science have been excellent. His Iron Man stuff hasn't been too bad either

 

[Mr. Green]

Okay, maybe you're right and I'm being a little too hard on him. In any case, you can't blame every bad X-story on HoM. That's such a weak argument.

 

[Mad Ones]

Yeah, I don't think you could blame HoM for how Fraction's been writing. The Sisterhood arc was awkward and... just weirdly written, and it doesn't have anything to do with how many mutants are around now. And he writes weird character moments, like Pixie defeating someone everyone else couldn't. I'm hoping now that the sisterhood is over with Uncanny will get better.

I hate HofM though, and Dread was right when it makes some stories (like the riot in San Francisco) not make sense. I loved the Utopia one-shot, but there just isn't enough mutants left for the world, or even the rest of America, to be too concerned. Is there any chance it could be reversed in a future event or anything? Or is Joe Q actually making sure it stays?

 

[Tron Bonne]

I'd say, whether we see Joey Q reverse it or not in his tenure, at some point we'll see at least a partial reversal of it. Even if the mutant population doesn't go exactly back to pre-HOM, I predict they'll at least bring the population back to 'threat' level at some point in the future

 

[JewishHobbit]

No, the Sisterhood arc was a bit blah, but just about everything else that came before it was quite good, and the one shot right after the Sisterhood was very well done as well, aside from the art.

Okay, I'll grant that issue was good. Sadly though, I've not much liked most of the rest of his run. I think there was an issue or two of the sisterhood thing that had me curious (the last few issues really) but that's it. I wasn't much of a fan of the Colossus stuff either.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I'd say, whether we see Joey Q reverse it or not in his tenure, at some point we'll see at least a partial reversal of it. Even if the mutant population doesn't go exactly back to pre-HOM, I predict they'll at least bring the population back to 'threat' level at some point in the future

I sure hope so. For one thing, I'm bored of this whole "mutantkind must survive... at all costs!!!!11" kick they've got the X-Men on.

 

[Dread]

M-Day didn't strangle anything. First of all, X-Factor.

Second, getting rid of all the mutants except for the ones that actually matter? Good call, IMO.

And third, maybe Fraction and Co are having a hard time because they aren't that good. Punisher War Journal? Yeah. WORST FRANK CASTLE EVER. He said, "Holy Mastercard." Yeah. I'm surprised he even got the chance to write anything else. He sucks.

And Brubaker rocks and all but he's not really that great on the X titles. Case-in-point, Deadly Genesis.

You have a point; Peter David on X-FACTOR has all but literally been the only X-writer who has actually worked with M-Day to crank out some interesting plots. On the other hand, X-FACTOR is a B-List book, which always is having it's premise messed up due to whatever the other X-Books are doing. M-Day screwed up the whole "detectives in Mutant Town" thing after all. X-FACTOR has been like a bottle caught in the shifting currents of the X-Editorial office.

I will concede that Fraction does have his misses.

Still, though, the problem with M-Day was that "taking out all the mutants except the ones that matter" has the effect of neutering the X-Men's key metaphor for minority oppression and/or discrimination against the different. Many stories made hay of the notion that mutants were a budding minority group of their own that would only increase given time. Now? 300 worldwide is simply too small a number. And out of those 300, how many are in the U.S? About 200? How many are or were X-Men? About 40? A riot of some 150 people in California is not the same as a Million Man March style protest, especially since not all mutants are especially powerful. Besides, M-Day left enough leeway for new mutant characters to still emerge who magically hadn't been chronicled before, so if the effect was to try to get writers to only stick with "established" mutants, that failed too.

That isn't even getting into the idea that since there are many countries and continents with more people than North America, technically there should be even more mutants overseas than there are in America, since if your odds are, say, one in a million, then there would be plenty of mutants in Japan or India, but whatever.

The problem with the X-Men as a franchise is that it seems that every attempt to try to do something drastic to bring them into modern times is met with a wall of resistance and is negated. Grant Morrison's run ended with mutants being commonplace and appearing on talk show circuits. It was new and while that may have been a step too far, nipping all potential in the bud barely a year later was not the best course to take. The X-Men can be more than a sci fi soap starring the same dozen characters over and over again that MUST distract itself with stories about aliens or time travel because it is never allowed even the hint of a logical conclusion, but Marvel won't let them.

The only story that seems to lend itself to M-Day is reversing it. Anything else seems to struggle with M-Day, and it is frankly telling that virtually every X-Book but X-FACTOR spent nearly two years deliberately avoiding having to deal with M-Day via alien stories or whatnot, and that includes Brubaker. In an era when fixing what isn't broke is common, this is one huge area where it is easy to see what is broken, if editorial was objective enough. Willing to publish an X-Men franchise that is less than it can be simply because of an EIC's personal fanboy whim that has been proven wrong with critical lambasting and lessening sales is Dan DiDio levels of fecklessness. Once upon a time, being "the boss" meant being objective. Joe Q personally hates space stories, yet he has been objective enough to allow some of the best ever to be written under his watch. So surely he is capable of stepping off the soap box for the greater good at times.

 

[Specter313]

CLOAK AND DAGGER #1
Written by STUART MOORE
Pencils & Cover by MARK BROOKS
Marvel's most-requested duo return in this all-new one-shot, spinning out of X-MEN: NATION X! Cloak -- dark, brooding teleporter. Dagger -- deadly, shining mistress of light. Having quit the Dark X-Men, Cloak and Dagger find their partnership strained as they struggle to fit in among the mutants of Utopia. But when a new menace targets Cloak, Dagger must make a fateful choice for both of them. Guest-starring the X-Men, and written by Stuart Moore (WOLVERINE NOIR) with stunning art by Mark Brooks (YOUNG AVENGERS).
40 PGS./One-Shot/Rated T+ …$3.99

 

[Specter313]

They may not be getting their own comic series again, but it looks like they're gettin their own tv show!

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?p=19064934#post19064934

 

[Specter313]

Fans ask about a possible new Cloak & Dagger series all the time at conventions, and Marvel usually has the same answer each time: not opposed to the idea, but waiting for the right pitch to come along. Apparently, they’ve found it: as reported on sources including the blog Comics Vanguard, writer Nick Spencer (Morning Glories, Iron Man 2.0, and, as of this past Thursday, a four-time Eisner nominee) and artist Emma Rios (Osborn) are working on a three-issue Cloak & Dagger miniseries, starring the titular cult faves and tying in to the upcoming Spider-Island story in Amazing Spider-Man. The news was announced at this weekend’s currently ongoing Kapow convention in London, and was confirmed by Spencer on his Twitter account.


Cloak & Dagger have deep connections to Spider-Man, starting with their debut in 1982’s Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man #64, and their supporting roles in the ’90s “Maximum Carnage” crossover. They starred in three different series in their ’80s heyday, the longest one running 19 issues. Most recently, they were the subject of a March 2010 one-shot by writer Stuart Moore and artist Mark Brooks.


http://blog.newsarama.com/2011/04/0...s-on-marvels-cloak-dagger-announced-at-kapow/

 

[Dread]

Tying it into SPIDER-ISLAND isn't bad. Some may feel that a 3 issue mini isn't long enough, but it beats stretching a 3 issue story into 5-6 issues (or 12 if you're Fraction). Spencer seems to be lining up a slew of 3 issue or less runs on things.

In a way it is a no-win situation. If Marvel launches a new ongoing, it will likely tank. They'll sell the debut issue for $3.99 with an unknown creative team, and it'll be dead in 10 issues or less. If they launch it as a six issue, $3.99 mini series, it may fall off the radar. But a mini series under 5-6 issues and some people feel it doesn't display enough "confidence" and may stay away. Meanwhile, Marvel is interested in CLOAK & DAGGER as a TV show on ABC, so they would like to sell it in comic form also - or at least get some trade collections in print.

It is actually something to remember they were a spin-off of Spider-Man too, although not as successful as the Punisher, or Venom (but more so than, say, Nightwatch, Annex, or Black Cat alone).